Islam for Women or is it?

[QUOTE]
Person A: Asks a question.

Persons B-H: Answer the question as best as they could.

Person A: No. Not convincing.

Persons H- L: More answers.

Person A: No. You're justifying the wrong things.

Person M: Ok then don't follow islam if its wrong. Live and let live.

Person A: No. I'm here to learn. !

Person N: Answers via videos of scholars.

Person A: No. No. Brings up more issues.

Persons N-T: More arguments. Gone off topic at this stage.

Person A: No. No. No.

Persons T-Z: To be continued...

I think we all know where this is going. Nowhere!

People who bother to take the time out to reply and help her "learn" are accused of justifying the wrong things and people who agree with her are the "intelligent" ones. Well done.
[/QUOTE]

Are we making assumptions here? I never directly accused anybody of justifying anything. It's my opinion that when talk about Sharia comes up, most Muslims get very very defensive and justify each and everything about it.

How can I agree with something that is so obviously wrong? It doesn't matter how many people tell me it's right, it doesn't make it RIGHT! But I do indeed want to learn what makes them feel it's right when it is not. You, my dear, are not paying attention to what I have said throughout the thread. I have provided you with answer after answer, yet you failed to see my point. Reread what I have written in response to others. If all I said was 'no' without any explanations, this thread would have died days ago. Anyways, I can make assumptions too but I haven't made any assumptions about anybody here, nor have I accused anybody of weak faith here.

Peace Miss_Noland

I have not been able to find time to give you concise answers for the further questions you have raised. Howevr, it is good to see that you are accepting some things from us as reason/explanation. This does show that you are genuine at least to me. I think when it comes to providing answers for faith a different sort of response needs to be put together.

Any way ... I hope I am not answering what others have already answered here. Also, I don't intend to have lengthy side discussions with other Muslims here either. I can but that would be diversion.

You asked here whether I thought it is unfair that a man can divorce his wife, but a wife can only separate. Actually, I think it is appropriate for both to be in this situation. Women and men deep down inside are physiologically and psychologically different, the One Who Knows us is the One Who has put these conditions on us and we believe it is from Him and from no human being.
The simple explanation to your query is this:

A man gives dowry as security for the woman, in return the man has say for divorce. Look at the beauty in that! If a woman had say for divorce AND the security would that be fair?

There is give and take from both sides. Islam does not view equality as equivalence of role, rather it demonstrates harmony by ascribing different roles enough to counter-balance one another. As a man is charged with the duty to 'pay' for his wife's upkeep this focussed on alone will seem unfair and people may dismiss Islam because it is unfair to men for having to put their money in all places and leave themselves with little, however, on the flip side if a woman is in a position where she has slightly less authority than her husband for some matters does that not make it fair? I think it does.

Regarding polygamy, there really is not that much of it. Those who practice it are really doing so due to a cultural norm that Islam is blamed for. Islam prefers monogomous marriages and you can easily ascertain this from the Qur'an. It allows polygamy for a number of wisdoms that we can extrude from human history, but the short answer is that it is a non-starter of a question. Islam capped polygamy whereas other religions allowed any number of wives. Islam also warns against marrying with selfish reasons, for with those reasons there will be injustice and they will be held responsible.

Islam is not necessarily a playing field limited to this Earth. It is and bears on what becomes of us in the Hereafter as well. Do you think that God The Most Just will not provide people with their justice?

Yes and Islam at least Shari'ah does develop and if there is such a thing as a norm that has become outdated such as slavery there is no need to bring it back. Islam puts laws on how to treat slaves, but it does not encourage keeping them and in time people freed their slaves anyway. There is a position here that you need to understand and that is today we live in the legacy of Islam. If Islam did not come then nothing we know of virtue and fairness would be existent. It is a bold claim but the butterfly effect of Islam is this platofrm that you are today standing on.

I am sincere about learning but even I have doubts about that sometime, so it's ok. I have given the responses a lot of thought, trust me. I have thought it over and over. It either doesn't make sense to me or it sounds like blind faith to me. Only 2 posters out of so many accepted that there are inconsistencies. An apple won't turn into an orange no matter how many times you call it orange.

I can examine the Qur'an thoroughly and would probably still feel the same way because I don't believe in God and because there are so many inconsistencies/contradictions. I can read the Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Geeta, or any land Constitution and still feel the same way. Maybe I am not here to learn but to understand what makes people follow the scripture when it's so outdated. To me religion is another constitution tellling people how to live their lives using God's authority to win them over. So yes, my attitude will probably never allow me to 'learn' but only question.

Thanks for watching and commenting.
Shaykh Hamza never said that "women have only one role" or "men have only one role". It'd be better if next time you can quote the exact words.

He said that men are care takers of their families but there are many women who are taking care of their families by working but they are not obliged to do that because in Islam it's not a woman's resposibility to make money but if she does it to help her husband or family then she gets double reward from God.

I don't think we are evolving because 1400 years ago women worked, they fought in wars, they rode horses, they gave birth, breastfed and took care of kids, they became scholars who gave men advice.

Now, why it's important for a kid to stay with his mother in the first 5 or 6 years? For this, there is plenty of research done by child development experts, Psychologists and educators who can tell you the harms on a child's psyche who's been away from his mother for most of the time.

Shaykh didn't say those women are wrong but he said that a woman's priority should be her children.

May I know why would you choose not sending your baby to daycare?

Actually, it was said in a context. When media came up with "Muslim man killed his wife" then he criticised the media for singling out only Muslims for such crime because when a Christian kills his wife no one says "a Christian killed his wife". That was the context. :)

I disagree that Islam accepted any barbaric traditions but modified them to make them good, such as the practice of pouring blood over a newborn's head was modified by exchanging the blood for saffron water. There may be things that you consider barbaric and these things we are discussing if they are really as barbaric as you claim them to be.

I think I need the exact quote here....because I don't know where he said this stuff so please do quote the exact words or the timing on the video. Thanks

Well, some blame does go to Western policies(not the people). Regarding previous religions, I think there's nothing wrong in comparing them with Islamic Law, Shaykh Hamza didn't lie about Christianity or Judaism nor he blamed; but if a religion blames previous religions that does not mean that it's a man made religion.

By the way, Islam never blames a Religion; it blames the people for not following their religion and who changed it.

Well that post really summed it up, didn’t it.

I can examine the Qur’an thoroughly and would probably still feel the same way because I don’t believe in God and because there are so many inconsistencies/contradictions.

Show me one, will you. I’ll show you one for now.

**I am sincere about learning but even I have doubts about that sometime, so it’s ok [and your previous post were along those lines as well]. **

Vs.

Maybe I am not here to learn but to understand what makes people follow the scripture when it’s so outdated

so what is it [your motive] to be here. It’s interesting you used the word rationale quite a lot in your posts.

I have given the responses a lot of thought, trust me. I have thought it over and over. It either doesn’t make sense to me or it sounds like blind faith to me.

Faith by definition means a trust. As have been pointed out before, word in Islam [Quran] is Ima’an which means confirmation/verification which obviously you haven’t done.

You didn’t reply to my original post, and probably you didn’t even bother to check the links that I send. At times I wonder why I even bother but anyways here’s a link.

**Muslim misguided or misunderstood: **

Islamic Invitation Centre - talk on Muslims misguided or misunderstood - by Gary Miller

Only 2 posters out of so many accepted that there are inconsistencies. An apple won’t turn into an orange no matter how many times you call it orange.

[By the same token] a law does not become Islamic just by calling it Islamic [by Muslims or whoever].

**I can read the Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Geeta, or any land Constitution and still feel the same way.. To me religion is another constitution tellling people how to live their lives using God’s authority to win them over. **

Just shows how much of the Quran you have read and tried to understand. To begin with the word ‘Religion’ translates back to nothing in Islam. Your ‘Deen’ [the word that comes in Quran] is your way of life.

One such person will tell you why he is in a religion [Islam], if you don’t mind listening [of course].

So yes, my attitude will probably never allow me to ‘learn’ but only question.

Only if you can change it to an attitude of questioning and learning.

Much of the Quran came in response to the questions people had. The word ‘qalu’ (they say), is found three hundred and thirty-two times in the Quran and so is its natural counterpart, the word, qul, which is the command ‘say’ [to them].

Peace Miss_Noland

There is a statement above that you have penned, but I disagree with it because I believe you have formulated it without giving it much thought. It is in red. You say that;

"If there's a true religion it should guide all of us and not divide us" ... You have created a qualifier for denying any and every religion, because according to your definition if even one person does not believe in it, it makes it false, hence all religions are false. This is a self-fulfilling argument and should be thrown out.

You know that all people do not agree on every point. You know full well that there are many cases where two people are arguing that one can be right the other false, ok, admitted that both can be wrong and given in a certain context both can be right in their own ways, but to say that if argument is sustained then only falsehood is the condition of the two. That is not a fair statement and should not be ones basis for considering religion.

People will see Truth if they allow themselves to see it. I believe there are truths in all religions yet I also believe that the most unadulterated best understanding comes in the form of Islam and hence I am Muslim. I have a basis for rejecting other religions, ask me what that basis is and I will tell you.

However, to make the claim you have made then we should only see 1 religion in the world, because any rival religion that comes about will nullify both.

The other statements you have made also in red and followed in blue are also not correct. Islam never calls messengers kuffar, rather it claims some of their followers to be so, because their followers had through time changed and manipulated their own prophets teachings. Leading to either people going astray in their belief or people becoming arrogant and proud whilst having consistent beliefs. Both are wrong ... Islam is the religion that was sent to all prophets, it was named when it was completed on the hands of Muhammad (SAW).

Please read the account in the Qur'an of the People of the Ditch ... they were according to our scholars monotheistic Christians and were a very blessed group of people who we believe will go to paradise. Did you know this?

The 'other possibilities' I am asking you to find is not supposed to be a stretch they fall out quite easily if you consider:

a) context
b) tafsir
c) the whole Qur'anic message
d) the classic Arabic array of possible meanings

I am only asking you to do a thorough investigation of the verses that you find contention with before you start to condemn the Qur'an. I hope you will find much beauty in your search by doing this. You may do the same from the Bible and hopefully you will see that the Bible never claims Jesus (AS) to be God. You can tell there are problems in a scripture by simply subjecting it to tests.

In the Old Testament a book that should have been written by Moses (AS) talks about his death ... that cannot be possible with any of the four conditions above. Do you see what I am getting at? I hope you do.

VS

** you are the only woman in this thread justifying the wrongness of something.**

And with that note, I say alvida to this thread.

Alhumdulillah I'm a muslim, Inshallah I always will be, Subhanallah Subhanallah!

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

All, I never denied the good aspects of Islam. I believe all religions send out a positive message, but I will never agree that it should be a lifestyle. The moment it becomes a lifestyle, you start living in the 7th century. The last statement is for those who read Qur'an and Hadith and follow it word by word.

As for me, I see mass delusion, not just among Muslims but in every religious group. It's actually very apparent here (but that's just me). I will never believe that God spoke to men, so there... I will never believe any religion because it's man made. To me God is incomprehensible and for someone to lay out rules because "God said so" sounds like the biggest lie and fraud in the history of mankind.

It's good that you are all using Qur'an to guide your lives. Your Deen may be best for you, but there are Christians, Hindus, and Jews just as dellusional about their religion. so which is better? none, each imposes different rules than the last.

I have checked every link, but it all seems like excuses, manipulation of words and justifications and no responsibily for what's going on in the Muslim countries. That's just how I see it. Unfortunately, I still think women oppression exists in every religion. It's different that YOU can recognize that a woman can have more than one role in society since you are educated, but the majority of muslim countries (middle east, South Asia, Northeast Africa)do not see it that way. To me that is the biggest proof of oppression in Islam. Most of the locals are illiterate but they still have Islam to guide them, yet they fail to see their rights and continue to disrespect her. They can respect their mothers, but not their sisters and wives. There's a pattern here.. I see consistency in every Muslim country.

I will probably never know what's so beautiful about religion that in spite of Science and technology, people still follow the centuries old scripture (I sometimes wish I believed in it too). Well, maybe you found your sanctuary in it, I don't think I could ever fall for it not because I am superior than those with faith, I JUST DON'T GET IT, I probably never will.

So I apologize for disrespectful statements I may have made.

Peace to all,
Miss_Noland

*Allah (swt) guides or misguides whom HE wishes. *

Have a good one.

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Thanks Miss_Noland for visiting Gupshup Religion forum ... As a thing for you to take away ...

Islam was completed as an ideology in the 7th century but it lives with us today all religious obligations are timeless:

Islam - Shahdah, Prayer, Fasting, Alms Giving, Pilgrimage - none of these oblige anything from the 7th century

'Iman - Belief in Angels, Belief in Holy Scripture, Belief in Prophets, Belief that Good and Evil are from God, Belief in the Day of Judgement and Belief in the Destiny are again not obliging of the 7th century

Ihsan - to be excellent in character - is again nothing to do with the 7th century

The 7th century may be a long time ago, but it does not mean that it was a time of ignorance. Rather we are living today in the wake of that beautiful time when the Earth became illumined in the 7th century.

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

I haven't read all the arguments here, haven't had the time. But I do agree with a lot of what you've written. I do think there are discrepencies about the rights that women have according to the Quran. However you've cited some examples which I've never heard of like how deep you bury someone when stoning them. I didn't know a person is to even be buried in stoning to begin with, because then you are assuring head injury --> hemorrhages, etc and pretty certain brain death. I thought some punishments perscribe stoning as a temporary punishment - in other words, not as a death penalty?

I dunno. Haven't read up on this stuff in years. But anyway, some of what you've cited according to the Quran, is true to some extent, but I think the interpretation can be varied. Now someone who has been raised in a patriarchial thinking is definitely going to interpret things differently than someone who comes from a more liberated society.

All I say is that Thank God a lot of these interpretations don't take effect in most countries, and a lot of times, many of these things aren't even followed (like lightly beating your wife, etc). I think a lot of the abuse you do see cannot even be attributed to these surahs and ayas, because at the end of the day, these very people don't even pay attention to the Quran to begin with. If you told them about any of these verses, I guarantee it would be news to a lot of people in Pakistan.

So, the abuse you see in Pakistan is deeply entrenched in the culture and goes back to pre-Islamic times. It is enhanced by the miseducation of people, by lack of good economic opportunities for growth, and poor schooling opportunities. Violence begets violence, and so we see it continue with each generation of Pakistanis.

*There are thousands of religions, sects and what not and Qur’an claims it sent messengers for all nations to get his message. *
**
And here is a confirmation of it.


History of religion*:*
**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orrf7ZAsviU


***If all messengers performed their duty then why does Qur’an mistreat/hate them and label them as Kuffar?***Afterall, they too listened to their messengers, they too have a guidance book of their own.


***Just shows how much you have examined the Quran. To begin with Quran does not paint all people with the same brush [unlike what you have been doing here]. In fact it explicitly states not all of them are alike [if only you wished to read]. ***
***In Islam a person crime is not what he believes, his crime is whether he checks on what he believes or not. ***


Why should they have listened to anybody else when the preceding messengers never mentioned another coming of a prophet (not speaking of the second coming of Jesus Christ here)

Justshow how much you know.

In the Persian scriptures, which have been around for thousands of years, we read:

“When the Persians should sink so low in mortality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones will be overpowered. The house which was built and in which many idols have been placed will purged of idols and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of the Farsi, Entaus and Balkh, and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers.” (Desature no.14)

The Muslims recognize this very quickly because the Ka’bah, the building which all Muslims face in prayers everyday, was at one time filled with idols and it was part of the mission of Muhammad , peace be upon him, to purge the house of idols till today. It was in the next generation, after the time of the Prophet that the wise men of Persia and others did join his followers.

In the Bible, in Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that H would raise up a prophet, from among the brothers of the Israelites, like Moses.

Christians wish to apply this to Jesus, to say he was the prophet like Moses. It is uncomfortable for them to recognize, however that Jesus was not very much like Moses and Jesus had no father, no wife, no children; he did not die of old age, and he did not lead a nation; all these things Moses had or did. But they say, well, Jesus will return; he will return as a victorious person, and so he will be more like Moses. Do they really expect he will return to also acquire a father and a wife and children and then die of old age? Not usually. Moreover, Jesus was an Israelite. The passage of scripture says that this prophet that was foretold would be raised up among the brothers of the Israelites, not from the Israelites.

In the third chapter of Acts, the disciple Peter speaks to a crowd of people and explains that Jesus has been take up and he is in heaven. He will remain in Heaven and he cannot return until all the things that were promised but God come to pass. So what are we still waiting for, does he tell the crowd? He quotes this very saying of Moses saying:

“For God will raise up a prophet from among the brothers of the Israelites like Moses…”

The point is very clear. Christians like to see this prophet as being Jesus. But read carefully Acts chapter three, what it says is that Jesus awaits a return. He cannot return until the fulfillment of this prophecy, that another prophet has to come. Jesus spoke of it himself and the words survived, just barely, but they survived in the bible. Jesus spoke of God sending another ‘Paraclete’.

The first letter of John shows that Jesus was a ‘Paraclete’. He is called a ‘Paraclete’ and we have Jesus promising another ‘Paraclete’ is going to be sent. We lose a lot by this word ‘another’ in English because it is ambiguous. If someone’s car breaks down, and it is a Toyota, and I say, '" I’ll go get you another car," maybe I mean, “I’ll go and get you another Toyota because this one you have is broken,” or maybe I mean, “Forget Toyota, they’re no good; I’ll go and get you a Datsun.” It is an ambiguous word. But the Greeks had a word for it. When they meant ‘another’ of the same kind, they said aloes. When they meant another of a different kind, they said heteroes. The important thing there is that when Jesus, who was himself a Paraclete, said “God will send you another Paraclete” he used the word aloes, not heteroes.

Christians want to say that this other ‘Paraclete’ that has been sent was different from Jesus. It was not a man, it was a spirit. What Jesus said was: God will send you another one like me, another man." Muslims believe that Muhammad is the fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus. The Qur’an says that this man is mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians (see7:157).

Christians came to expect that the return of Jesus because of a Jewish misunderstanding. ‘Messiah’ and ‘Son of Man’ have been given special significance by the Jews, even though may people were called by this same name as in the Bible. The Jews came to expect a victorious leader. When Jesus did not turn out to be quite what many expected, they hatched the idea that he would return some day and fulfill all these prophecies.

However, with the amount of descrapencies I have noticed in all Abrahamic scriptures, it’s hard to conclude that Islam teaches anything different

“Have they not considered the Qur’an (with care), if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies.” (4:82)

I have checked every link, but it all seems like excuses, manipulation of words and justifications and no responsibily for what’s going on in the Muslim countries.

About 20 links [each about 1.5 hours], you have checked them all, in less than 2 days. Must be some sort of an achievement. In fact your statement suggest you haven’t checked none of my links that I send you, because they have answered to virtually all the questions you posted.

Beside you still haven’t replied to my original post, the one i posted here [and just in case if you forgot I PM that to you as well].

You were right, afterall you were not here to learn.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no recorded incident of wife beating by our Holy Prophet Mohammad (SAW) or his companion and many , many generations of Muslims afterward. They had implemented Islam in their life to the core.
That is my proof also that modern exegetists are right about the interpretation of the verse which is quoted as proof that Islam allows wife beating, but modern exegetists say it does not translate to giving a license to wife beating.

All of the following links deal with your questions, wife beating , women as a witness , women’s share in inheritance.

Islam , culture and women.
Status of women in Islam
Some misconception about women in Islam Part I.
Some misconceptions about women in Islam – II
I can quote more if you need.

The last but not the least you are comparing apples and oranges by the hadees you quoted.
You started talking about a verse from Quran which according to you allows wife beating , which this hadees does not relate to your stance at all.
This hadees does not provide a proof that a husband abused , beat up or mistreated his wife. So You know Hazrat Aisaha (RA) was daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakar(RA).

Now back to history. You say all religions were invented by men not by women. Now my question is why is it so ? Why any woman did not come up with a religion which will give them more power over men ? What was stopping them during this long history of human kind ?
In the human history we see women have lead armies , they have surmounted mountains , they have crossed the oceans etc etc. Why not a single woman came up with a divine religion which will give them power over men ? Because Allah created us , Allah appointed his prophets , Allah knew a woman will not be able to bear the burden of being a prophet that is why. Allah has given men and women different roles in society and family because Allah know which gender is most suitable for what roles.

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Salam to you all again,

Sorry, I have not had a chance to respond to some of you. I can only answer so many people, hence, I try to make my posts clear for your understanding. I will provide short answers to everyone who has taken time out to contribute to my thread.

hareem01: Shaykh Hamza seems like an honest man. I have watched his several other videos. I can generally agree with everything he says about how women should act and what Islam says in regards to their treatment, but when I truly think about what he says and compares it to what's written in Qur'an and how Muhammad (PBUH) dealt with women, I feel they are totally different from each other. There are instances where Muhammad (PBUH) said something to women that I find very offensive. For example the following hadith (and there are several others):
"Narrated Abu Sai’id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of the woman’s mind." Bukhari vol.3 book 48 (Book of Witnesses) ch.12 no.826 p.502.
"he [Mohammed] said, ‘Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler.’" Bukhari vol.9 book 88 (Book of Afflictions) ch.18 no.219 p.171.

Do I really need to answer why religion could only be a man's creation? Look into gender roles and socialization. In every culture and society, we have set an appropriate behavior for each gender. If you examine that bahavior going back centuries, you will see why man could be the only creator of religion. Women were told what they were worth and what was expected of them and that's all they did. Gender roles are changing, and I believe a woman today given every opportunity (at least in the West) is just as much capable of creating her own religion. You mentioned 1400 years ago women worked, they fought in wars, they rode horses, they gave birth, breastfed and took care of kids, they became scholars who gave men advice. Sorry but this was hardly true for most societies and was frowned upon.

psyah- your posts are wonderful as always. Trust me when I say I am allowing myself to see the truth, it's just not so clear right now. Perhaps I will see it (it it's there). My investigation has not ended here yet. I do not have enough time to search for the truth but I am not giving up just now. I am reading Qur'an again wtih open mind and will share with you if my opinion changes. If it is powerful to enough to turn a nonbeliever into a believer, then you will indeed hear it from me. I am just not relying on anyone's testimonies because I know no matter what anybody says to me, it will never be enough to convince me. I don't even call myself a nonbeliever, I am a doubter.

Shahmir123: I can google such stories too. Beside, your story does not disprove what I said. I said no "messenger" before Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned a coming of another prophet. Jews don't believer Jesus was a prophet just as Christians don't believe Muhammad was a prophet (because neither believe Moses or Jesus prophecised a coming of another prophet). I have found scholars who are better at explaining Islam than Gary Miller (no offense). I find his videos hard to understand quality wise and he just doesn't grab my attention as well as Noman Ali Khan (muslim turn atheist turned muslim). In any case, thank you for the links. I am doing my own research and I have a bunch of links I need to go through actually but first and foremost, I need to finish reading the Qur'an translation. I only have so much time.

PCG- You will be surprised that all of what I said in my post is true. I have not made up a single thing, there's no need to. I agree, there are descrepancies.

Mirch- Go through Sahih Bukhari hadith, you will find many that talk about wife beating. There was a companion who was actually a wife beater, I just can't remember his name. I will look into it and let you know. It's Abu Jahm I believe. As I have mentioned before, I can only go through so many links to find answers. Unfornately, none has satisfied me. I am not going to go through different links anymore. Thanks. As to why women did not create religion, see my response to hareem01.

After reading this gibberish I believe in People saying women lack in intelligence! I have seen no man being able to escape from stoning. Don't know who fed you with such fairytales.

Don't make a mockery of Islam. It depends on what your man said and you didn't do. You really lack Intelligence, I'm reading that now, where is the link between an Fatwa and the New Testament bhawawawa...!? Do you know what Fatwa is?

Hadith and Koran are like the Old Testament! OMG! That's so candy...

A man CANNOT divorce his wife without giving a reason! Don't know where you got that from! what sex slaves? what are you talking?

You should become a Jew. There you get nothing if you get born as a female. Have fun.

female rulers can never be successful. Just watch at the German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Since she is ruling Germany we made 1000 steps back.

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

uff this is such a lengthy thread.

anyway question is Miss No-land is talking about women suffering, and she is somehow blaming Islam for this. I say there are instances where men are suffering more , wont be shocking if i say they are suffering coz of some women in their lives or around them. I wonder islam didnt give those poor men any rights too :(

going to home, leaving office, cant comment in detail. bye

If you’re not familiar with Arabic grammar and sciences of hadith(I believe most of us are like that) then many ahadith can confuse you…for example this hadith in Bukhari about making a woman ruler was about a particular woman in Persia but it’s been translated in English wrongly by people.

Queen of Sheba ruled over a nation and they were actually quite successful.

Delivering the message of God is a big responsibility and may be God didn’t want to burden women with this, but it doesn’t mean that God didn’t honour women.

So how many women in the West have created Religions so far?

Just because Aristotle and Plato weren’t female we should stop reading them or we should assume that they stopped women philosophers from rising?

Mary(AS) mother of Jesus(pbuh) was given the status of the best woman and some scholars argue that she was a prophet.

I think we need to keep this gender bias aside.

then it’s surely not Islam’s fault.

May be you needed a detailed reply but I’m very busy for few next weeks so I’m sorry that I had to keep it short.

I hope other posters will carry on the discussion, inshallah.

I’d also like to quote Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad aka T J winter’s answer to a similar question, he came with some interesting points.

*WHAT ARE THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN IN ISLAM? HOW DOES ISLAM’S VIEW OF MALE-FEMALE EQUALITY DIFFER FROM THE WESTERN VIEW? *

**This question somewhat essentializes Islam and ‘the West’. There is a huge diversity of Muslim opinion here, both ancient and modern; and **‘****the Western view’ really does not exist, since villagers in Venezuela, for instance are Westerners, and so are many ultra-orthodox Jews, and conservative Catholics, and radical Californian feminists; and while the views of all these groups are morally coherent, they are not part of a single ‘Western view’. Thankfully, Islam and the West are both diverse. And of course they overlap: many people, including myself, consider themselves to be both Western and Muslim. ****

Virtually all pre-modern ethical, legal and social systems accepted firm assurances about the respective nature of the two sexes. Women were taken to be nurturers and homemakers, while men were to be earners and warriors. There are clear biological reasons why ancient societies should have favored such a division of labor, and the current sharp debate over the ‘different wiring’ of the male and female brain may clarify this,although it is unlikely to be resolved soon (see, for instance, Ann and Bill Moir, “Why Men Don’t Iron: The Fascinating and Unalterable Differences between Men and Women” [London, 2003]). Whichever way the scientific debate goes, it is evident that our bodies influence our minds, and even our souls, and we can accept this without assuming that one gender is therefore superior to the other.

**Islam is a religion that takes our rootedness in our bodies seriously. We pray with their bodies as well as with our hearts. Turning the body to face Mecca encourages the soul to do the same. Childbearing must have a deep spiritual impact. So Muslims believe that men and women are spiritually different. However the indispensable practices of the religion, including the daily prayers, the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and the fasting month of Ramadan, are incumbent on both sexes. For the ancient world, this was a remarkable circumstance, and Muslims are obliged to see it as a sign that women and men are both spiritual beings, with similar spiritual duties (see the Holy Qur’an, chapter 33 verse 35). **

****Some Christian denominations do not accept the validity of women priests. Islam, too, does not recognize the validity of services conducted by women (unless there are no men in the congregation). However this does not exclude women from positions of religious leadership. Thousands of medieval Muslim scholars were women (see Ruth Roded, “Women in Islamic Biographical Collections” [Boulder and London, 1994]). They would teach, preach, and give religious verdicts in the mosque. Many others became saints (Camille Helminski, “Women of Sufism” [New York, 2003]). ****

The lively Muslim feminist movement today likes to point out that since Islam does not call God ‘Father’, and does not believe that God was incarnated in a male body, that Muslims can consider that they are worshipping a gender-neutral deity. This, together with many other factors, ensures the continuing popularity of Islam amongst women. In my own community in the UK, around eighty percent of recent converts have been women. For the U.S. see the remarkable and often moving book by Carol Anway, “Daughters of Another Path: Experiences of American Women Choosing Islam” [Lee’s Summit, MO: sixth edition 2002]).

“The third of Zuckerman’s categories appears to place men at a disadvantage; but in reality this applies only to the secular. In the believer, the virtue described in the Qur’an as taqwa, which is produced from the faith generated in the second category, overcomes this shortfall. The spiritual technologies of Islam allow a compensation for the serotonin lack and a proper disciplining of the darker passions which dwell in the limbic system. The actualised shari‘a is, in a sense, the victory of the frontal cortex, and allows the male to retrieve the balance which is already implicit in the female metabolism. No doubt this is why ‘women are deficient in intellect and religion’. It is not that the Creator has given them innate disadvantages in the quest for understanding and salvation, but rather that He requires men to make more effort to reach their degree of fitra.”

This is how Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad explains this hadith, you can read the full article here.