Islam for Women or is it?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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..So this is really really difficult for me to write and understand. All my life, I heard people tell me that Islam gives special if not equal status to women. We should be modest and obedient. Hmm..now reading the Qur’an and hadith, I am in shock that these people could not be more wrong.

There is NO equality whatsoever! A woman’s testimony is considered to be only half. Why? Are we deficient? Our husbands can beat us if we are not obedient, WHAT? When I read the verse, I was actually kind of furious:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

LIGHTLY? As if a light slap will do the job since admonishing and refusing to sleep on the same bed was not harsh enough. Imagine your husband telling you to do something you do not wish to do, he stops talking to you, then he sleeps apart from you, and then he resorts to beating “LIGHTLY”. What does “lightly” entail, a slap, spanking, or what? It doesn’t make sense to do all of the above then beat your wife LIGHTLY as if that would make her obey her man. I believe the clause advises men to cause physical harm to their wives for them to realize who’s the boss. What does this really mean then? Are we like a child who cannot think for himself and therefore needs a spanking? Well, if it was true 1400 years ago, it’s no longer true because women work and take care of the house go to school, and men are no longer our protectors or providers. What does Qur’an say about that, or would you blame it on Dajjal that a woman has forgotten her role in the society?

Another fine example of how Islam treats women is that a woman’s share of inheritance is less than that of a man. Islam allows women to work yet allows them only half the share of inheritance, fair? Yet another fine and just example of women treatment in Islam is that the testimony of two women equals ONE! And you know why, it’s because according to the Sharia we lack intelligence, REALLY? Maybe it was okay 1400 years ago, but it is certainly not true anymore, won’t you agree?

Yet another excellent example of justice is that if an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she is guilty of Zina AND if she was raped, she would have to produce 4 witnesses, and if it’s 4 women, sorry it won’t cut it, you would need 8 women! Boy am I thankful or what for DNA testing!

Don’t even get me started on sex slaves (concubines)…have I not said enough!!! 4 wives and concubines, what more can you ask for…o wait, 72 virgins in afterlife…seriously? That’s enough to send any man to war! No wonder I don’t see any women terrorists! (Ok, I am not saying Islam produces terrorists, but you can’t deny that it does indirectly encourages it, to the terrorists it’s Jihad, for the moderate Muslims, it’s terrorism)…So Islam discourages polygamy because most men probably cannot take care of 4 wives, but that’s like saying “don’t have more than one pet if you can’t take care of them.” O O and woman alone cannot divorce her husband without his consent unless she can prove he is impotent, WHAT!!! Yes, that’s according to the Sharia law, but I am glad our Qanun can see beyond Sharia. A man can divorce her wife without providing any reason.

I realize that Islam tells men to treat women with kindness, but you should also treat animals with kindness so that doesn’t mean much. I am also aware of rights women DO have in Islam, but they do not compensate for the kind of peculiar/wrong behavior Islam allows towards women. Yes, I am aware that different scholars have different views but looking at the Muslim world today, women are treated horribly and that’s due to Muslim men practicing the Sharia law (especially in matters of marriage/relationships) irregardless of the fact that it’s not the law of the land (constitution) on which they live.

Where do you see modesty/equality for women in Islam? all I see is degredation except for bare minimum rights that were given to them for a whole lot that was taken from them (unnecessary punishments, restrictions added). What can you expect from a religion whose leader says a female ruler will never be successful?! The restrictions and regulations may have saved a lot of women from rape and violence 1400 years ago since they were illiterate and were dependent on men but it’s just no longer true!

Who are the pure Muslims today? Is it the ones who know the good side of Islam and lead peaceful lives, or is it the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Lashkar-e-taiba and all who live their lives according to Sharia (as it seems)?

Yes, I am glad Sharia law is not enforced upon us! Before you start accusing me of blesphemy and apostasy, I want to let you know that I want to listen to reasonable explanations not the ones that go something like, “May Allah guide you, you have gone astray and we as Muslims aren’t supposed to argue with the one who has no faith”..you know something along those lines. I have noticed that Muslims cannot take any criticism and dissmiss anything that causes a crack in their faith. Of course, when the punishment to speak against Allah and his apostle is so severe, why would you… Well, at least you can think and make sense of things. It seems almost absent in Muslims… Why?

P.S. Yes I did leave out the fact that according to the Sharia law women are to be burried upto their chest before stoning (Rajm) so they have no chance of escaping at all, yet men are to be burried upto their waist so they may have a chance at it… AND that muslim women cannot marry a non-muslim but Muslim men can, they can even have sex slaves but poor women cannot. There’s so much more that I can add here…You can read the Hadith and Qur’an yourself and truly see where Muslim women stand in Islam. You can give me as many Fatwas as you like, it doesn’t change what the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said and what the Qur’an says. Fatwas to me are like the New testament and the Hadith and Qur’an are like the Old Testament.

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Islam is the greatest women liberation movement in history..proud to be a muslimah alhamdulillah:D

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Miss_Noland

Thankyou for your views ... you may be right of course, or may be there might be something that may have misinformed you. These questions are valid and much confusion revolves around these concepts even amongst Muslims so thank you again for raising the topic.

Peace

Response coming soon.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

come on u need to consult a qualified scholar to understand the rationale of shariah ..........

dont make sharon stone and angelia jolie ur ideal

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Peace Miss_Noland

The first point is that you raised is that (we) i.e. women should be modest and obedient. To clarify men also must be modest and obedient. The obedience of every person is with those who are placed in positions of 'authority' over them. Authority should be viewed like ones boss in a job, except when it comes to the Authority of God. In human to human authority the husband is placed over his wife, not over all women. However every man is first and foremost responsible to his mother, who is a woman. So one may say that it is unfair for married women to 'report' to their husbands, but every man must 'report' to his mother. Not every woman has a husband but every man is born of a mother if they are alive they must honor them and obey them.

Obedience in Islam is also dependent on righteous obedience, if a husband asks to do something shameless then it can be denied and disobeyed. In the workplace a boss has certain restrictions over his authority the same applies in the case of marriage. No one can say that in the workplace the rights of the manager is higher than his employee rather because the manager has higher authority the manager also has greater responsibility and hence greater accountability can be exercised over him. Also in Islam if a man sins it is only on his head, but if his wife sins then he shares in it, because he has authority over her.

Instead of looking at 'authority' as a perk ... you should start to look at it as a great 'responsibility', then it may make sense as to you why people say that Islam liberates women.

You next claim that there is no equality ... I agree, but there is Justice and equity in the difference that has been established for us.

Your next claim is that a woman's testimony is considered half ... this is actually for a specific case and again testimony should not be viewed as an honourable thing. It is in fact a great burden to testify to something and take the responsibility for it. If there are two female witness then they can confer and agree on what happened to make sure they have not left out detail, the provision of which is not given to men. They must take the burden of testimony all themselves and hence be accountable for any falsehood themselves. So again it is in the benefit of women to be able to talk to each other first before giving testimony. How is this difference unfair to women? I think it is unfair to men.

Your next claim is the reference from the Qur'an. Please read the context of this verse. You have actually posted it. There is a big IF there. If that IF does not apply there is nothing a man can do to beat his wife. Rather look at all the references of conduct and you will see that a man must be exceedingly soft to his wife. The condition of the verse is if the woman sleeps with another man. If you husband sleeps with another woman through an act of adultery would you want to hurt him? Well, Muslim men are only allowed to warn them first, then leave them in the bedroom, by this point the problem should be cleared and normality may resume, however, if still nothing happens then a light tap can be exercised to remind his wife of his rights. The jurists have said that this 'tap' should not leave any marks, it should be once, it should be with nothing long enough to cause damage. It is but similar to the kind of 'tap' that one may give to an unruly child. The very last part of that verse is the focus of the verse not the parts you have highlighted. This verse came a means to protect women because it prescribed a limit to chastisement and the main clause is right at the end. If they return to obedience (i.e. honourable conduct) seek not against them any means (of punishment) .... at all or whatsoever. As a result a wife is protected.

And you say that 'as if a light slap will do the job' ... it may not do the job for you ... but there are women who are proud of their honour and a light tap is enough for them.

Your next point is "are we like a child?" ... that is my point entirely ... being treated like a child is not unfair ... it shows love and kindness from the husband. A child is innocent and any punishment to a child is really a type of nurturing process it is not done out of anger but out of love ... Not that we treat you women like children in every respect ... rather we take on your advice and we elevate you as though one should do to a princess being kind, respectful and if we do these things then chastisment will never become manifest anyway.

You next point was this ...

"Yet another excellent example of justice is that if an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she is guilty of Zina AND if she was raped, she would have to produce 4 witnesses, and if it's 4 women, sorry it won't cut it, you would need 8 women! Boy am I thankful or what for DNA testing!"

A woman is not guilty of zina unless there are 4 witnesses to accuse her of it. Going by your logic of 8 women assuming you are right, then 8 women would be needed to convict her as well. The witness conditions applies to both the accuser and the defender surely?

That's all I have time for ... the majority of the rest are social problems by Muslims rather than Islamic ones ... however if I get a moment I'll address them too.

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Miss Noland,

Thanks for describing all those points.

Yes as Muslims we do have issues with the treatment of women. And yes we use Quran and Hadees to support our twisted view.

I do have a feeling that your quest is to find the truth and nothing but the truth.

So best wishes. Your journey perhaps is just starting, or may have started a couple of years ago.

Just to let you know that finding the truth is a life long struggle. Like growing the garden of oak trees. Very slow, very challenging, but in the end very rewarding.

Do remember! when you start reading translations or may be DOING translations after learning classic Arabic.

that the terms and words in EVERY holy scripture have many different meanings.

Take for instance the word "obedience" of women to men (or obedience of men to women).

The same words in this day and age, should have been translated as>

Women should "loyal" to their men

and

Men should be "loyal" to their women.

The concept of loyalty to ones family, company, and country forms the core of a healthy society.

No it doesn't mean the loyalty that Nazis showed to Hitler
or baath party members showed to Saddam
or the beseej militia shows to the ayatullahs
or savak showed to Shah.

it means the loyalty must be viewed in conjunction with other "good and healthy" habits as accepted by the society in general, and suggested by the holy scriptures including Quran.

In summary,

try to read the Quran in modern terms, if you want to view these scriptures for the modern society.

And yes, you can read Quran the way it was interpreted 1400 years ago to view the society that existed 1400 years ago.

If you lose this context, then you will lose the really beautiful meanings of Quran, and Allah maaf kuray, you will be committing the same sin as committed by Taliban and other extremists (i.e. misinterpreting the Holy Quran)

.

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Well said!!

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Indeed ... MashAllah

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

psyah some of your replies to her questions arent very convincing. lets begin with the question of witnesses. you try to argue that this is to lessen responsibility, but why? why treat women like special needs children. furthermore, what if these witnesses wanted justice instead of wanting to avoid responsibility?

you say it isnt 'unfair' to treat women like children, it is certainly patronizing to regard them as in need of being treated like children. there is an implication of inferior intellect running through your entire argument. you say children are treated as such because its a nurturing process, which implies that at the end of the process they would be treated as adults. Unfortunately there seems to be no end in the process of infantalizing women, atleast as explained by you.

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If it gives you any peace of mind, this authority is given to those men only who are pious, true 100% momin. People like myself dont even qualify for this. My wife can point out 101 mistakes in me before I even think about lifting my hand on her.

and those who are true momin, first they will make sure that their wife is well taken care of, they are performing their husband duties and giving her the security and love that is their religious oblogation.

Point is, the hukm in this ayat for men is not about beating their wives, the hukm (order) is about being their protectors and maintainers. I am sure you dont mind your hubby being your protector and maintainer.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

^ dont be so sure.

having said that, i think it would be cool if women were also allowed to beat up their husbands in case they were adulterous. is there an injunction against that in Islam

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Noland dude,

Well in social sciences there are no such thing as "just answers" we need to see relative grounds of the person evaluating answers/principles.

You are just being a woman. And women by t their virtue are less likely to go by principles and more likely to go by emotions and hormones.

Before we can go into any further arguments, What is you stance on men?? the way they act and the way the design social system ?

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

you are a maniac JK :smack:

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I was listening to a Tafseer by a very prominent scholar (sunni, hanafi as that is the school of though I follow) who said that unlike normal worldly standard where we save the best for the last, quran talks about the most important stuff first (in an ayat) and then goes down in the order of importance.

In the above quoted ayat, bieng protector and care taker is mentioned first so I beleive that the message Allah swt wants to give us, not the wife beating one.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

i meant dont be so sure women would have no trouble accepting the idea of protector and maintainer. implies control if not ownership.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

^ :D

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

dude yeh aurteen pagel hoti heen.... aadha dimagh
ja ky pehly apny dosry basic issue to solve keeren... first they need to know what planet they are on.

before poking into more sophisticated ideas.

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Ravage bhai,

The concept of witness is almost as misunderstood as the concept of Jihad.

Every Tom, Dick, harry, Mullah etc. have their opinion. And we the Muslims messed it up, when we left the tafseer to pathetic Mullahs.

Here is the deal.

Read Quran again and read the context.

  1. In criminal matters, Every witness counts as per their character. If there is a murder committed, and there is one woman witness. Then she would be treated just like any other witness REGARDLESS of gender.

The ONLY exception to this rule (as per Quran) is

  1. In financial agreements!

Quran suggested that two women sign the agreement "if possible", so that one could remind the other about the $$$, date, and other figures.

That's all.

There are biological and psychological reasons why women may be weak "comparable" to men IN GENERAL for recalling facts and figures in a hostile courtroom like situation.

Proof: Most of the quiz show winners are MEN due to the different nature of the biological makeup of Men's brain vs. women's brain.

YES. Allah SWT has wired our brains slightly differently so that we could compliment each other as man and woman.

However if a woman is known to be really good witness, then the reason for having 2 women witnesses goes away.

People,

Understand the modern scientific methods, and you shall realize that Quran if understood in modern context (and not in the ways of 1400 years ago), it is truly a remarkable book.

Off course as Muslims we believe that, but a good scientist really would really appreciate the sacred words.

BTW this is not to prove that Quran is the ONLY holy book. As we all know there are many. And we as Muslims have to respect and cherish all of them.

May you all live in peace, and enjoy exploring Allah's universe.

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You had me thinking until here. This comes across as scumbag whining...over a dead persons property. No it's not fair that ungrateful children equate their self worth to how much of their parents property they're entitled to. Boo freaking hoo.

This and Zakkat are legal mechanisms which are so personal one should really think before grafting other issues and causes onto them. Why should children get anything at all? Why should it not all go to the poor? What is the responsibility of a person with respect to their less needy family members? Why does our critical thinking, and notions of fairness, end with the concept of "ME" and my genitalia?

How nice to look at a single aspect of a society and not see how it fits into an individual's other responsibilities...it bespeaks of the "me-first" individualism rampant in so-called free-societies. Gee...could THAT be the cause of any unfairness....?

What exactly is your point on this example? That there is no mathematical equality? That's not a concern...I don't make as much as a doctor...doesn't mean I'm less a person. That there is this *numeric *inequality grafted into law....again, not a concern as the 'modern' standard is having parents distribute their wealth in an ad-hoc manner, with no safeguards that a particular person will get a share at all. Never mind, the state will come in and take a large share itself.

Monetizing one's worth as a human is never a good idea...

Or is it that boys will get more than girls in general...is it simply about the money, with no implications on self worth?

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Yup...we call those "receipts" now days...:)

But, who is to let modernity (and clear cut examples of our embracing aspects of modernity) stand in the way of a great (historical) polemic/gripe!

But having said that, the rule has to my understanding come into other aspects of law, in certain schools. That is a matter of interpretation by (very much fallible) scholars, of course. I will try to find specific references...