Islam for Women or is it?

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Well at least your honest in saying that you do not believe in Abarahmic religions.
After that whatever you say about Islam or teaching of Islam useless because that what you don’t believe in nothing good will come out talking about it.
Its your opinion and we are entiteled to have our own opinion and as a believer i believe that everyone is responsible for their own deeds towards God no one else should be condemn him/her.

But surely you did not do your homework when you say that Islam is the same as other monotheistic religions (in contemporary form). :slight_smile: I think you should take some time out and do some comparative study of the religions and then you will come to conclusion that Islam gives more rights to women then any other religion or ideology.

Don’t make the mistake and compare the bad behaviours of Muslims with Islam. Muslims should be representing Islam but unfortunatly most of us do not represent Islam and are no worthy of representing Islam. Unfortunatly its the Muslims themselfs who are to be blamed for negative propaganda all over the world 24/7 against Islam.

As many new converts/reverts (Can Stevens) have said: “I am lucky that i did discover Islam / Quran before i did meet any Muslims, else they would never have choosen for Islam”.

The power the magic lies in Islam not the Muslims who are totally twisting the real tenants of Islam and giving more importance to the culture then the religion.

Religion goes not devide us sister :slight_smile: people devide.

Can you give me any historical reference that where there was no religion there was peace? ???

CiAo

62

I said it’s the same in a nutshell because it spreads the same message in regards to the treatment of others. If I do dig deep into each Abrahamic religions, then I am aware of the differences to an extent. However, I don’t understand why another religion was necessary to make amendments to the preceding one. The tenets of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are very much alike and therefore, it’s not really correct to call one religion the true religion while dismissing the ones before it. It may have been more modern, but it’s certainly not NEW.

I am not sure who you mean by bad Muslims. Who are good Muslims anyway? Who should I look upto?

Religion does divide people. It has created so much chaos, how can you deny? Everything from Crusades to terrorism today has a lot to do with religion. People divide in the name of religion (look at the number of different sects, subdivisions we have within Islam). Since all scriptures are open to our interpretations, it causes division, segregation, and violence (in some cases).

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Who talked about good muslims? i dont know who is good or who is bad i am not going to be the judge of that.

Again you are mistaken when you compare that monotheistic religions are almost the same if that was the truth then you would be contradicting yourself :slight_smile: by saying that religion devides people dont you think so sis? :slight_smile:

its people who interpret the relious scriptures that devide not the scriptures…because you said it yourself …they are almost the same :slight_smile: so eleborate on this please!!

and again u did not anwser my question :slight_smile:
i will ask you again!!!

Can you give me historical or contemporary example …an era or country where they do nto believe and where there is always peace and no fight???

if you can give me one example :slight_smile: then from this moment i am with you and will leave my religion !!! :slight_smile:

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[As’salamu Alaykum**,**

Before I go into the answers to some of your questions, what I suggest is you listen to some of the lectures of Brother Gary Miller. It helped answered a lot of my questions and will Insha’Allah answers a lot of your questions/objections as well.

Here’s a couple of links

[COLOR=#800080]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsMogrhlO0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxCTAzvDWfQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTMPBDcDov0

About understanding the Quran:

Revelation and revelation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsMogrhlO0

Now coming to your objections;

**Equality of Men and Women can be discussed on two levels. **

First of all on religious level the rights [and rewards/punishment] are equal. Whatever religious practice [Salah, fasting, Zakat etc] that is enjoined upon the man is the same as that for women [and the reward is the same as well].

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember – Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward [33:35]

When it comes to worldly affairs rights in Islam, rights are equitable but they are not necessarily identical in [every case]. But if a man enjoys a higher right than the wife than that is matched against higher responsibility, as Islam is not just about your rights but also about your responsibilities.

A woman’s testimony is considered to be only half. Why? Are we deficient? Yet another fine and just example of women treatment in Islam is that the testimony of two women equals ONE! And you know why, it’s because according to the Sharia we lack intelligence, REALLY? Maybe it was okay 1400 years ago, but it is certainly not true anymore, won’t you agree?

Sorry, I won’t

Well to begin with it’s kind of incorrect to say woman’s testimony is considered half that of men, because that will mean in every case [which isn’t the case]. It is only under one circumstance where the testimony of men is twice as that of women.

There is after all one circumstance where a woman’s [wife’s] testimony is greater than that of the men [husband] 24:6-9]. Now no one seems to be complaining about that.

Under other cases the testimony of men and women are equal.

Another fine example of how Islam treats women is that a woman’s share of inheritance is less than that of a man

Not correct either, there are instances where the share of inheritance for wife and husband are equal; though it is true the son normally gets twice as much share as the daughter.

Let’s draw a list of financial obligations on women and the men.

Women: Zakat only [even if she works or has income from other source].

Men: Provide for his wife and children, his parents [once they reach old age], sisters [before marriage], Mehr to his wife, Zakat, communities needs.

So if a son gets twice as much share as the daughter, his responsibilities [financial] are much greater than that of the daughter.

Yet another excellent example of justice is that if an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she is guilty of Zina

I guess you meant injustice. The fact of the matter remains the punishment [for zina] is same for men and women. So maybe the word [justice] came out right

AND if she was raped, she would have to produce 4 witnesses, and if it’s 4 women, sorry it won’t cut it, you would need 8 women! Boy am I thankful or what for DNA testing!

And where did you get this from**. Some cultures may follow it but it’s not an Islamic law. **

So Islam discourages polygamy because most men probably cannot take care of 4 wives, but that’s like saying “don’t have more than one pet if you can’t take care of them.”

As if only Islam allows polygamy, all religion does and so does many other cultures.

Yes, true just because everyone does it doesn’t make it right.

Firstly it’s not a blanket rule. Islam puts many restrictions on it. Incidentally it is there to solve a social problem, that is, if we are faced with the problem of surplus orphans and widows, one way we can solve that problem is by marrying some of them.

o wait, 72 virgins in afterlife

You meant Hur’s. I don’t think so anyone is getting 72 Hur’s. It’s not mentioned in the Quran. No point in bringing the Hadith [on this issue] as even the scholars of Hadith has classified that as fabricated.

The word [Hur] basically means companions, and if we examine closely all the verses related to the subject in the Quran, it appears both men and women will have companions as a reward in Jannah.

**Yes, I am aware that different scholars have different views but looking at the Muslim world today, women are treated horribly and that’s due to Muslim men practicing the Sharia law **

Whilst I agree with the first statement but second is not correct. None of the country that I am aware of follows Shariah Law [in its entirety].

O and woman alone cannot divorce her husband without his consent unless she can prove he is impotent, WHAT?!!

Where did you get that from?

Rest to continue later … [Insha’Allah]

May Allah guide us closer to the truth.

65

Your whole argument can be deflated by saying Im not interested in B, or assessing its truth value. If you want to include in your response a generalized principle that also covers B thats another matter.

She did point out other instances of bias. Now again you dont have to have bias in every instance for there to be bias.

You havent really argued that yet. Stating is not arguing.

You present a reductive picture of the argument. the ‘systemic unbalance’ was merely part of the chain of evidence offered.

what other inequities are considered normative, and by whom are they considered normative?

You call it gender roles they call it inequality. Language is political.

No reason offered for why thats the case. What kind of disparities within ethnic groups, and how does that impact the argument in any way? Southern punjabies are considered disadvantaged compared to northern punjabies and complain. Does that make it different?

Male and female children vs sons and daughters… distinction without a difference… what is the difference between sons and daughters?

has no impact on the argument when the argument is that women are inferior to men. Not by themselves.

this is just a variant of the bias could be worse argument. Yes, the laws dont prescribe that the rich girl’s inheritance be taken away and given to poorer men.

It isnt. Its an ‘all other things the same why is there disparity based on gender’. a pretty standard form of argument.

You continuously ‘raise questions’ without providing answers yourself. You say you have had bad experiences, but that doesnt mean you come into every thread and start asking questions. Why are you asking this? Why arent you asking about that? Where does this lead to? Should I start asking you why you arent in the thread about best Islamic way to pray namaz and asking ‘why arent you guys asking about fasting, what underlies this question?’? Sorry too lazy to go back to the main menu to find a better example. But you get the point, it is not an unorthodox line of attack, it is one of the most commonly used deflection tactics, and is only deployed from a position of defensiveness. The implication is not that you’re provoking thought and questioning the questioner, but that you have nothing else. Avoid answering the question by obfuscating the topic.

If you think any of those questions are relevant, the decent thing to do is to provide them in the form of arguments.

You misread the argument. You said wages were indicative of skill, learning etc, I said they historically have meant more. Power, societal valuation of identity. The extrapolation to God wouldnt be in terms of power ofcourse, but worth/relative valuation.

Worth as a human being foremost. Skillset/ability to perform tasks is more or less comparable these days anyway.

That is part of the evidence offered. Perhaps not ‘in the eyes of God’ but ‘in an Islamic society’ is better phrasing. One cant see with the eyes of God.

Its impossible to prove intent. The disparity in and of itself does count as evidence of diminished economic worth at the very least, unless you offer justifications for it as psyah attempted. It is simple really. If you have two children, you’re required to give one an economic advantage over the other based on their gender thats straightforward evidence of social devaluation based on gender.

They arent? What of sadqa, jihad bil maal and so on? After all someone would more money would have more ability to perform those sawab worthy things no?

It isnt a question of wealth in itself, but the ‘systemic unbalance’ in access to it. Your argument is that the unbalance doesnt indicate worth. It is a much better argument if you actually say what it does indicate.

66

It’s called faith for a reason, there’s no scientific method involved and there’s no logic put to the test and no trial by error.

Be me thats the reason why there is no ‘faith’ [as such] in Islam, The word Ima’an [often translated as faith] comes from the root word which means confirmation/verification.

Man is in Loss except those who have Ima’an…

Rest to continue … Insha’Allah

67

Stop confusing yourself. You have a problem with the culture and tradition of these countries, and how some women are treated in these countries.

If islam taught us to treat women this way, my dear, all muslim women, no matter where they live, in america or in afghanistan, would be treated that way.

So re-phrase ur question. Islam is the most beautiful religion for me as a woman, afghanistan however, is not the country for me.

Culture and religion are two different things. Are afghani men true muslims??? Are they 100% momins??? They think they’re going to heaven by blowing themselves up and killing innocent people… what do u expect from these people???

Plz stop confusing yourself and stop associating whatever the hell is happening in afghanistan (and such countries) to islam.

68

^ I agree. None of the countries you mentioned are practicing Islam at all…you cannot call them Islamic countries. In fact even Saudi Arabia isn’t an Islamic country! You can’t compare religion to culture.

I think Indonesia would probably be the closest that would come within the definition of an Islamic country.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

You know I understand everything regarding the different roles of men and women that have been mentioned in the Quran. I think there is complete equity but there is always one things that bothers me…and that’s the verse regarding adulterous women, and the husband being allowed to resort to lightly tapping her. I feel this verse has been misconstrued by religious scholars throughout Islamic history and I know this thread has mentioned that it’s just a light tap but men think of it as being given a free card to hit their wives! Also, why did that have to be mentioned in the Quran? I did read a translation by a female scholar where she claimed that the word hit actually meant to separate and the last resort was to separate from each other and not lightly tapping your wife. I feel that translation is so much better suited. I just don’t understand WHY husbands will be allowed to do that to their wives…when we know that throughout history, it’s been mostly men who have been adulterous and cheated on their wives. What’s the recourse to women if the man is having an extra marital affair. Ideally it will be forgiveness right? So why didn’t the Quran mention that if the woman is adulterous, first forgive her…

70

Listen you people!

Those who proclaim their allegiance to Islamic Shariah

And

Those who attack Islamic Sharia

are all living in the past.

Here is the news for you.

Most of the modern Muslims have left the idea of 100% of the Islamic Shariah that existed 1400 years ago.

Here is the proof:

No one in their right mind is keeping slave girls anymore,

with exceptions of few (less than 0.00001% of the billions of Muslims) no one is practicing polygamy.

Almost all Muslim women get their share of inheritance because Most Muslims live under modern English laws.

So any discussion against woman rights in Islam is done by those who probably:

  1. God dumped by some jack@r$e who proclaimed to be Shariati.
  2. Had a falling with local mosque

or something.

And it doesn’t help. Because people are barking up the wrong tree.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

wow! guys I know nothing about your religion other than what is publicly known. But I gotta ask you.

If you have some old rule is so blatantly wrong and inappropriate, why do you try and defend it instead of just changing it? I mean all that convuluted stuff such as “you need two women to give testimony so they can consult each other”! My god man, that is just another way of calling women half-wits!

All societies were patriarchal in the past and had some stupid rules such as this As societies adopt and evolve, these things need to change and hopefully make it better for all members. Why would you want your sons to live a modern life but sentence your daughters to such treachery?

keep it simple. Tell me what heavens will fall to earth if a bunch of you get together and declare from now on one woman’s evidence shall be equal to that of one man? wth will you lose other than shame?

72

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

^IPOD that’s what religion does to people who do not think.

There are many Hindu brahmins who would defend the outdated, outlawed, and outmoded practices such as caste-ism.

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

^ you do recognize the differnce between castes and discrimination based on castes? It is not just Bahmins; a lot of non-Brahmin Hindus also defend casteism - but only a very small portion discriminate based on casteism.

If you are referring to ‘untouchability’ that again is not a Brahmin-only thing. But look at how it was dealt with. It was outlawed, all the major and mainstream Hindu religious organizations (the matts) accepted the laws and so the mending and healing.

Difference here is the number of muslims who think it is blashphemy to think, suggest or execute any change to any quranic practice. They think it amounts to correcting God. Sadly they prefer to believe that God is capable of such discrimination!

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Bhai,

I really appreciate the good things about Brahmins and Hinduism.

There are many many Indians who use a very good religion to support caste system.

However this thread is about issues with Islam, so use the caste system as an EXAMPLE of blind follower-ship, and not an attack on Hinduism.

OK?

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

OK

76

Whoa, I am not here to challenge anybody’s beliefs, so please keep believing what you believe irregardless of the numerous examples I can provide you with.

Religion does divide people! Give me one example where religion brought people together. You cannot enter Mecca if you are a nonbeliever, you cannot enter certain churches if you are not a Christian. Yes, the main message of all religions is to be kind to others. However, different religions are like different land constitutions, each asking a person to join it and follow it to obtain peace in afterlife. Islam beats all to it, because it offers the most to its follower. Religion makes promises to its followers the same way a politician promises his party, only there’s no hellfire involved.

As for your challenge, people have religions, countries do not. Having said that, there are countries that are the least religious that are also topping the HDI (human development index) list year after year. For example, Normay, Sweden, Iceland are some of the top countries with highest HDI that also happen to be the least religious.

There is morality without religion and there are millions of athiests/agnostics who devote their entire lives to helping people in need. They do not need a religion to tell them what’s right and wrong. Religious people are too occupied with pointless rules as to what they should avoid and what they shouldn’t avoid. One could also learn that by social interaction. Human mind (at least today) is capable of understanding the difference between good and bad by understanding the consequences of his actions. One does not need to hear the threats of hellfire to steer clear of devient behaviour.

There’d always be troublemakers and there would always be peace makers in every nation. Religion did not create peace, it created Crusades, KKK, and Jihadis. The world was in peace before Moses claimed to have spoken to God. We cannot even imagine that time but we can surely investigate. When people have no rules or regulations to follow, most people are bound to do things that lead to horrible consequences for the world around them. We need rules and we need a way to stop a criminal, this governing body doesn’t have to be a religious one. However, the law should serve justice and not take sides, which is exactly what religion does. Religious governments have always taken men’s side and therefore leaving women with no choice but to protest.

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I am not confused, trust me. Islam accepted many inhuamne traditions of the Arabs at the time. If it didn’t, it would have brought upon a revolution unimaginable. I would be as proud as you are if it did indeed show equality and justice.

Islam did teach Muslims men how to treat women and that’s exactly what you see in the Muslim countries. If it didn’t, you wouldn’t see the consistency that you see among most muslim countries . Afghanistan was once a freed country like Iran was, the moment Islamic rule was enforced, all women were treated horribly. Their Basij force is no less a bloodthirsty wolf, attacking any woman who does not properly take hijab. There’s justification for this in Islam because Muhammad pbuh preferred women to be covered head to toe (except for hands and face). So yes, who is this all satisfying? the dear Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Ask an Iranian woman and she will tell you.

I am glad to hear that you find Islam to be the most beautiful religion for you but don’t disregard the fact that Afghanistan and Iran both follow the Sharia.

Culture and religion are indeed two different entities. However, Islam was shaped according to the culture that existed at the time. Afghani men may not be the true muslims to you but in their own hearts, they are following Islam. They are going to heaven because they are fighting in the name of Allah, that’s according to them of course, and there’s justification for that too in Qur’an. Islam is what they make of it and for them they decided to follow some of it and leave the rest. However, they ARE following it. I can even find their supporters!

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Thank you, this is perhaps the one statement that I have been secretly wanting to hear from Muslims. They are so adament about justifying everything in Sharia law, and these Muslims are usually the ones who are weak in faith. I applaude you for recognizing the inconsistencies. :slight_smile:

Anytime, I even speak to my Muslim family/friends, they just want to cuss me out! there’s no reason for it whatsoever! There’s no discussion, they straight up accuse me of apostasy as if I have stopped thinking altogether. There’s no talking to them in regards to religion. The funny thing is all these Muslims I know haven’t probably prayed for years. I am with them for the most part so I know!

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Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Throughout the history of mankind, more people have killed or hurt each other for non religious divide, hatred and animosity than religious difference.

Land, power, non religious ideologies and perhaps woman ownsership have been the biggest reasons why people killed each others than…religion.

Moreover, in some instances:

a- nonreligious reasons were tainted and falsely claimed as religious reasons during some of these conflicts

AND

b- non-religious cause was falsely named over deep religioous motives to make them more paplatable.

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You’ve got a bazillion issues my dear, if there are so many things wrong with islam, don’t follow it, don’t waste ur time arguing, because it doesnt seem like you’re taking any notice of the 10 positive things that people are telling you in response to your 1 negative thing, so you may now move on.

No islam, no restrictions, Have a great life :k: