Islam for Women or is it?

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Wow. This really takes the cake for being both all over the place and cramming the maximum number of strawman arguments in the least space possible.

You begin with asking why should it go to anyone at all. Interesting point, zero relevance to the topic at hand. Whatever reason there is for inheritance going to one's descendants applies to men and women. Societal responsibilities to the less needy etc have nothing to do with it, the less needy could be men or women. There can be more than one dimensions of unfairness, attempting to point out others does not address the first.

There was a brief detour through individualism and free-societies which I cant see the relevance of so will ignore that.

You then say you dont make as much as a doctor that doesnt mean you're less of a person. Im afraid you're only half correct there. Wages do indicate how much society values a person, which is why interest groups pursue higher wages for one group of people or another. It isnt just about getting more money, its indicative of social valuation.

Similarly it is certainly legitimate to question the rationale behind why women get half the inheritance of men. Just as you do in your strawman argument about how other legal systems allow adhoc distribution of wealth allowing some to get nothing and the state to take lots.

22

bqposh, could you provide a source for your point number 1? I dont entirely agree with your point number 2 having seen many women much more intellectually brilliant than their husbands, but lets let it go.

23

If I am not mistaken, the "receipts" did exist back in the time of Prophet pbuh.

Quran's reference to the witnesses is linked to the lengthy financial contracts between individuals, or groups.

In criminal cases, no woman needs to be reminded by the other. Hey if you are a woman, and you saw somebody's head chopped off, the court will rely on your testimony, and not ask another woman to second that.

So the Quranic reference to two witnesses is applicable to the financial contracts and not some packet of daal that a woman would buy from the local desi store.

Do you need lengthy financial contracts for a kg of gobhi. :)

Yeap. This is exactly what we are discussing. And Miss Noland too (I believe her sincerity) is questioning the interpretation.

When we interpret Quran in light of the life that existed 1400 years ago, we will make mistakes to use the same interpretation in today's world, or the world that may exist in 3010 AD,

Or the Universe and the planet we are on in 5010 AD.

And unfortunately 95% of the so-called scholars today fail to see the differences between 600 AD, vs. 2000 AD. And they especially lack vision to foresee a life in 2050 AD let alone 3000 AD or 5000 AD.

So we have a choice. Follow these illiterate myopic "scholars" or take back The Book from their dirty hands.

24

Yes this is very true.

However intellectual brilliance should not be confused with the ability to recall numbers and dates.

I hope you see the difference.

BTW our brains may be wired slightly differently for men vs. women. But that should not be construed as woman being "dum#".

No at all.

And suppose a financial contract was drawn and only one witness and that being a woman was available. Well she needs to be mindful about the future repercussions and take good notes. But then the same suggestions should be made for male witnesses too.

The idea is not to prove or disprove Quran, or disrespect women.

The idea is to do our best to understand the intent of Allah swt without mocking it (nauz billah), and without using it to abuse women. After all every man is born from the womb of a woman aka his mother. then how could we expect Quran to put down our mothers?

The fault is not with the book, but with our interpretation.

25

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Psyah, Burqaposhx, Picocio: Ravage has pretty much summed up my thoughts so I won't repeat them here.

Now you tell me this, if something that is open to anybody's interpretation, then what good of a guidance book does it make in the first place? I can interpret it, you can interpret it but it's all invalid until one goes to a scholar/ulema to find out what God is really asking us to do. If the word is from God then shouldn't it be understood by all of us without resorting to find someone who may or not be actually right in his interpretations. That in itself doesn't make sense! If it's from God, then it should be clear enough for all us of to understand. How can we avoid getting thrown in hell fire for eternity? How does God expect us to find answers within ourselves? Why do we have to hear them from another MAN!

Having said that, wouldn't God have known that women in the age and time would be more intellectual than those 1400 years ago? Wouldn't God have known a women today is capable of taking on any occupation that men hokd? What's the deal here?

26

It’s pretty sad though but you’re so sight, I don’t understand why women have so many problems these days :hmmm:

27

Jesus :omg:

TLk you hire ppl to post :smiley:

28

If you ask me
then i think that the problems most women (herei am talking about Muslim women)
have is partly to be blamed (partly) on themsels
because women do not know what are their rights in islam.

Don’t expect husband or males to be angels because everybody is (unfortunatly) hypocrite and selfish. Women should know their rights that islam gives them and also FIGHT for their rights.

Unfortunatly even when some women know what their rights are in Islam they keep quiet because of FAMILY honour. Often honour of the famiily and traditions are more stronger then the FAITH.

Even in the west females are mistreated but they do not dare to speak out. I am not an of phychologst so i cannot talk about this in depth. lolz

29

As I said, you seem to be sincere in your questioning.

However your question shows that you are not even familiar with the concept of a "Holy Book", be it Vedas, Bhagvad Geeta, Granth, Tora, Injeel, or Quran.

So you gotta understand (at least) and if possible, believe in the concept before you start your journey of exploration. Otherwise you are stuck in square one (of the religious belief system) for the rest of your life

"yes you can!"

--- as used in the recent USA election campaign.

Correction! You go to scholar (or better come to this forum :) ) if you are confused.

If on the other hand, you are sure about your interpretation, then you are all set to go.

Who is Mullah (in this age of enlightenment) to stop you and force you to change your belief system. Because on the day of judgement when we all shall see Allah SWT, we shall answer based on OUR beliefs and OUR aamaal.

On that Glorious day, you won't be able to say "Oh I did it, because Mullah asked me to". No Madaam. That day it will be you and your maker. That's all.

30

Are you questioning God here? It is OK if you do. In my book, if you are questioning God "with sincerity" then you are on the path of prophets. Because "healthy skepticism" is a sure sign of an intellectual. Remember I said "healthy..."

Did you ever wonder? or asked a question? That

1400 years ago, if Quran would have revealed,

----- Though shalt driveth your car on the righteth hand of the Motorway
Or
---- Though shalt stopeth your car when the signal show red light.

Or

--- Though shalth designeth your space shuttle well, otherwise though shalt be punished with Columbia disaster.

I mean you gotta imagine the confused look on the faces of those poor Bidduins.

Just picture! this little Bidduin is riding a donkey while commuting to his job in one of the Makkah mud-scrapers, and the sky opens on him, and God's voice comes down asking him to stop his car at the red light?

You think that Bidduin will remain a normal commuter using donkey every day going to work in Makkah?

Heck no!

He probably would spend the rest of his life, running around in the desert, shouting at God,

Oh Allah What do you mean by car? and what is a red light?

Fast forward to 2010,

Would you then blame Allah for not revealing the modern concepts of cars and red lights to the poor Biddus?

Similarly, would you blame Allah for not revealing the modern mommy and her mommy-mobile and the whole concept of soccer mom to this poor Biddu?

31

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

Islam has given women a unique status. I am going to give just one example. Jannah lies under mother's feet. So every man has to please his mother to get Jannah. So now tell me didn't Islam give women respect and a unique status. Prophet Sallalaho Alahey Wasulum used to lay down His Blessed Chadar for Haleema Sadia (Radi Allah Anha) to sit on. Isn't this respect and a high status that even a Prophet and not just any Prophet, The King of all the Prophet Sallalaho Alahey Wasulum is showing so much respect for a woman.

As a Muslim, we should accept the Shariah that Allah and Rasool Sallalaho Alahey Wasulum have given us. No Doudbt, no one can do more justice than Allah. If Allah has granted men a higher status as in form of a husband, He also has placed major responsibility on the men. So there is a balance.

Personally, i believe you should have such discussions with a scholar who can clear all this for you. Posting such topics on forums can be risky for others' beliefs who dont have much knowledge and also aren't firm on their belief.

32

I am familiar with the concept of a Holy book but fail to understand why people today still follow the scripture. The main message of humanity does not require one to read up a holy book unless it's the promise of afterlife that attracts people to religion. It takes common sense to know that you should treat others the way you would want to be treated. Everything else is just rules and regulations and pointless punishments. If you believe the pre-requisite to understanding a holy book is to believe in God, then my quest to find the truth ends here.

I fail to understand why religion degrades women and reduces her status to that of a naive child. Religion fails to show respect for women but asks men to treat them with kindness as if that says anything! Look at how Muslim women are treated today, whatever rights Islam give to women they are heavily overshadowed by the amount of restrictions set on her.

How is it that the God's words have always been conveyed through his messengers and it has not been easy to follow his message, wouldn't you agree? How does God know to descriminate between a man and a woman? Why does Qur'an allow for the peculiar traditions to continue? Muhammad (PBUH) did not wish to put an abrupt end to slavery, inequality, harsh punishments because it would have highly disturbed the order of things, but he recommended better treatment of slaves. It's ok if Muhammad (PBUH) ordered stonings and beheading because that was how they dealt with criminals at the time. Couldn't Muhammad pbuh refrain from carrying out such harsh punishments if he wanted to set an example? Quran does not say anything about stoning (rajm) but I am not sure, neither does it say anything about beheadings yet Muhammad pbuh himself ordered to execute the individuals who had sinned.

It's amazing how times have changed. Zina is no longer as big of a deal as slavery is. Yet there was no punishment for slave trade whatsoever... and no punishment to kill another Muslim by mistake except for giving Diya.... Things don't add up.

Don't you look at the author for credibility first before you read his book? Why don't we apply the same logic to Qur'an and Muhammad pbuh? Afterall, he is the one who the Qur'an was revealed to. Have a look at all the holy books and set aside your faith for a minute, does any of it make any sense? Not really...... It's called faith for a reason, there's no scientific method involved and there's no logic put to the test and no trial by error. I just don't understand why some people keep saying science compliments religion when it doesn't. Just as these two don't compliment each other, women do not have a proper place in religion. May be it has to do with the fact that religion was not a woman's creation.

33

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

If Islam was followed and implemented in our lives then Miss_Noland will not even be asking these questions.
The problems is not with the book. The problem is not with the messenger.
Can anyone prove from Hadees or history of Sahaba or any greats of Islam that they were wife beaters ?
Absolutely not. Here is the proof that Islamic system of guidance works.
You can ask then why Allah gave the men the permission to beat their wives ?
I do not agree with thjs translation of the word used in this verse. The context does not justify the meaning.
Two women as witnesses is used only at one place in Quran and Quran has given the rationale , if one will forget the other will remind her.
There is a rationale behind the laws of inheritance too. There are many many articles written on all the subjects on these topics.
As to why we need scholars to understand Quran ? No you don’t . If you can understand it on your own and implement it in your life , nothing can be better than this.
If you want us to prove to you that Quran is book of Allah. Then you need to read Amazing Quran by Gary Miller.

34

Well that it is your belief system then.

But why do you want to impose your belief system on others? That's exactly what the Jihaddist do.

You have every right to resist if someone is forcing you into slavery, or denying you full share of your family's inheritance, or getting you married into a polygamous relationship.

That is not a religious or Muslim issue in 2010 AD, but a legal one. And the right channel for you is to go the court of law, and not a discussion forum.

Bottom line is!

If you don't need the BOOK, then you don't need it. Go on and live your life.

I thought you started the thread to learn more and explore and figure things out.

Now it turns out, you are just another type of Jihaddi.

Best wishes.

35

What proof are you speaking of that works? Women suffering in the Muslim world, shouldn’t you serve that as a proof of the Islamic system that works?

You said, “There are many many articles written on all the subjects on these topics.” Can you provide any?

Yes, I can show you Hadith in which Women have been beaten, the following is one of them:
Bukhari volume 8, #828
Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, “You have detained the people because of your necklace.” But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah’s Apostle although that hit was very painful…

36

here here. and generally, pretty nice thoughts from you in this thread :k:

you seem to have a broader agenda than this thread MN.

37

I am not here to impose my beliefs on anybody, I am here to understand what makes people follow the scripture to this day. I am here to learn what I don't know. The fact is we are talking about God here, the only one who has the ultimate authority over everything seen and unseen. Who knows what is God and who is he? How is a man capable of understanding God, he isn't; therefore, any rules regulations set in the name of God are invalid. How can anybody claim to have spoken to God is beyond me. If somehow, it is possible then how can God care about such petty things that only a man cares about?

As for calling me a Jihadi, may be I am may be I am not. You can give me whatever name you want but the truth is neither of us know what's real until it's shown to us, which hasn't happened yet!

38

I don’t have an agenda, I have a brain…and my brain finds it distasteful to have a blind faith.

39

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

maybe start a different thread for a different topic then Miss Noland. This gives the impression that your principle issue is faith itself, which then makes the specifics of religious law besides the point.

40

Re: Islam for Women or is it?

look, in the olden days women were treated differently, certainly not as equals. Those were totally patriarchical times. All these religious stuff, whether christian muslim jew were written in those times. The very fact that that quran has a 'lightly' probably means that it was trying to tell people not be to severe with women when they hit them - meaning men were hitting them really bad and quran was trying to make it a bit better. You have to see it in the context of the time it was written in and for.

Ofcourse eveything is different now. It better be.