Islam and Peace cont.

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
** Rani, God can do what He wants - He is God!

There are very few emotions that is solely wrong. Take "hate". God "hates" sin and sinner. If He gives clear guidelines as to what "sin" is and the punishment if one continue in sin, surely it's us that makes the choice in life. If the law says I have to wear a seatbelt for good reason and I refuse, I can't blame the judge/system when I am fined - it was my choice.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited September 08, 2001).]**
[/quote]

So it is sin not to worship him in certain way and to befriend idol worshippers or pagans. Your defination of God is screwed..not putting on seat belt will not land u in hell fire, other people wearing seat belt will not be asked to hate u or not to befriend u by the authorities.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited September 08, 2001).]

Anand, thank you for your reply; I would also sincerely welcome an open discussion.

In your last post it was stated that you have never stated Muslims are bad, and also included was the statement that, “…the Islamic world has glorified in killings”. Since the “Islamic world” is naturally comprised of Muslims, I am a bit curious about something: precisely whose actions have been used as references in making the statement that the Islamic world has glorified killings? Saddam Hussein and his sons, Osama bin Laden, and all the other wacko Muslim leaders - or the majority of 1 billion Muslims?

I am not certain of what to say, Anand, because I have tried to clarify this issue from every possible angle. I find it ironic that Muslims are accused of being intolerant and narrow minded, when some non Muslims harbor such inaccurate, stereotypical beliefs regarding Islam. For the sake of argument, let’s say that Islam is this intolerant, fanatical religion that glorifies the sword and rejects peace at every corner. If this is accurate, would you not believe that individuals would not be converting to Islam at the rate it is reported they are? Why would these people convert to a religion that is, according to your point of view, so seriously distorted with respect to issues of human rights, violence, and peace?

I do appreciate your replies, Anand, and I am very relieved that we can at least keep a civil note while discussing such a sensitive issue as this

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[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited September 09, 2001).]

i heard if only you know arabic language
and born in arab countries still reject
islam you are considered non-believers.
how can you declare a chinese farmer living in remote villages or a tribe somewhere
in remote places to be declared a kafir
just because he is not a muslim.

However, the Hanafi school of thought was in support of giving the rights of 'zimmis' to the Hindus, Buddhists and Jains as well as the Sikhs and other people who did not belong to the Book. All other Islamic schools of thought were against giving any right to the kafirs.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited September 08, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
So it is sin not to worship him in certain way and to befriend idol worshippers or pagans.
[/quote]

If the God you worship hate idol worshippers, so be it. Remember, that this selfsame God will receive these idol worshippers with open arms once they repent and turn away from their wrongdoings. Still a matter of choice...

Rani
<>

There are more than one billion followers of Islam and it is growing many folds daily. You know that it is the fastest growing relgion in the world. I had suggested that this is only an insignificant lot who have never secured any position in the mainstream of the society. But you prefers to look at the clouds, instead focus on sunshine. I cant help you.

<>

Then please be my guest and enlighten me. I can bet that you have never held a copy of Qura~n in your hands. Tell me what I skipped??

man the Bible endorses slavery so shut the hell up.

My Dear Nadia,

I repeat that I never say that Muslims are bad people, though the Islamic world glorified in killings are not two different issues.
We can have some psycho study of the matter. Foundation of Islam is fear, fear towards the Prophet and god. The teacher is supreme, in Islam the teacher is the Prophet and nothing offensive can be exposed in his direction. Majority of Muslims start their education at Madarsa, a religious school, at a very minor age. A newly born mind is exposed to fear. Attendees of Madarsa usually remain loyal to the religion, if not in practice, remain loyal in thought. This is a pyramid type of social bondage.
Further Islam differentiates the humanity into two; believer, that is Muslims and non believer, that is non Muslims. It does not matter how many times the word peace is repeated in quran, the mind has selected its way.

Islam and Christianity are still leading in preaching and conversion. Though the mass conversion that was a practice till first half of the 20th century is not popular any more. How many people are attracted to conversion from intelligentsia world? Now it is taking place in far remote areas. Today Islam is more dependent on birth rate.
Your concern for malign fame of Muslims is right. It is not because Muslims are bad people, but because of the declared Islamic states. When a State takes its agenda from a written book, it easily exploits and defines the dogmas to fulfill all dirty ends. This has happened in two communist party regimes as well; the Chinese and the Soviets. Pls pay attention that these two states remained core enemies and blamed each other of being anti socialist. The same is a cause in Islamic world.

Further, here is something in person, a little away from the topic. You must have heard of J Krishnamurti. This gentleman was brought up by the Theosophical society that believed in the incarnation of new god of future. They found this child and expected him to be god of future. At an early age he was taken to Europe and as usual felt and went thru some revelations. For some time he started giving lectures, but soon at a very young age he rejected this spectacle and later went on studying and exploring the mind.

Once again, nice to see flowers. I will learn how you do it.

With best regards

Anand

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When considering whether or not islam is for peace ,you have to understand ,Islam unlike hinduism,posess a more agressive attitude towards injustice.Whatever major significant battle muslim fought were prior to renaissence.
Because of rennaisence ,the west modernized itself both in armaments explosives,made major difference against sword spear & javelines.

Since the ww1 ,ww2,korean war,Vietnam

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war ,falkland war ,it was non muslim war s .Whom would you blame for the violence or cause of war by the west.Here non muslim & christian west is interchangeable b/c no muslim was part of these.

Your objection to violence & particularly muslim wars may be that violence you dont believe in BUT yet you are not living the hinduism of rams arrow & ashokas horse either.

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If you take in the last mellineum ,muslim were brutally bombarded for 54 years in palestine ,for 54 years on & ioff in Kashmir .

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The saddam war was not muslim or islamic for it was Kwait & Saudi on the other side

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So were is this impression & perception that you carry about muslim.Individually for man to man killed it is the christians that have unjustifiably killed red Indians ,Blacks Vietnamese & Europeans vs American & U.K in 2 ww .

You tell me was it koranic slaying that shot 1 million vietnamese or several hundred thousands on both sides in ww1 &ww2

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Take one murder as protoype for accusing muslims .All you have as evidence that koran talks of SLAYING ,you dont even translate it correctly .What all hindus have is ARUN SHOURIE ,minister in BJP Govt.& another you hindus have propped up a muslim Anwar Sheikh to endorse your dirty lies.Now i can have 10 hindu lined up saying terrible things including that hindus are most violent ,but i dont like that no conclusive evidence which wont hold modern judiciary.

Coming back to murder ,it requires body ,weapon proposed as instrument iof killing & motive.

There is no million dead bodies ascribed to muslim having killed non muslim in last mellineum.

Weapon ,muslim in the last mellineum from Moroccio to indonesia were colonies.After 50 'sindia & other colonies came to exisistence.In No continent there has been JEHAD ,or any body killed in war b/c of muslim except bombing of Palestine & it continues.

Motive ,after indias & other nations independence except for Kashmir ,muslim do not have border dispute except in cyprus ,Armenia ,& more recently in soviet republic.Because All odf the muslim countries including India was colonies ,muslim have grudge against there colonisers like Iran aginst us & u.K.Baghdad was initially the same coloniser grudge ,in fact in egypt s fundamentalist al are more scarred by colonisation as in India.It is more pronounced resent ment than india b/c unlike india islamic nation feel that there is a limit to which they are willing to change.

If you can show me statistically non muslim having been murdered more than muslim by the hand of nOn muslim,i can guarantee you of all ppl. in palestine area & in Kashmir ,killed although it is not all muslim fight but kashmiri & Palestenian,IT IS TRAGEDUY MOR MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LAST MELLINEUM THAN ANY ONE WAS KILLED BY MUSLIMSor non muslims dead b/c of muslims

Koran translation is itself is uselessfor convicting a slaying,You just cant give motive as koran ,No one is mad to kill without reason .reason ,body & motive --muslim have none of them against them


barque(bijli) yoon akadti hai apne karname pe ke
jaise phir naya hum aashiyaan bana nahi sakte

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
** I agree that is why u hate and look down on everybody who is non-muslim and strongly believe in forming groups of us aganist them..instead of believing in universal brotherhood of all mankind.

**
[/quote]

Speak for yourself. You wont catch me dissing people religion.


We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
Sin: Osama Bin Junior

I think the hidden agenda anad and Rani has is as follows:

milta hai hath jorr ke niyat buri liyay
karta hai Ram Ram baghal main chhuri liyay

Everyone here is trying to explain to that Islam is peacful religion, but you both are insisting otherwise. While non of you has ever read, leave alone understading Qura~n.

But as Hafiz once said

awazi saga kam na kardan rizq e gada ra!!

Be warned that these folks are pagans and trying to put sense into them is very difficult. Most of the topics posted about Islam turn into arguments when the likes of Rani & co. state something negative and instead of ignoring, everybody starts answering to that. And it becomes yet another topic discussing the validity of Islam instead of constructive arguments. All they want is attention.

[This message has been edited by Astronut (edited September 09, 2001).]

Sorry, perhaps I’m being stupid here, Anand, but when the Islamic “world” is being referred to, would that not include Muslims? In stating that the Islamic world has glorified killings, my assumption is that that means individuals in the Islamic world (the majority of whom would be Muslims) are the ones who are “glorifying” killings. If so far that is accurate, then the implied statement being made is that Muslims are obsessed with killing, with spreading terror, etc. - and hence (all) Muslims are bad. I’m sorry if I’m overlooking something obvious here, please do let me know if I am.

Foundation of Islam is fear, fear towards the Prophet and god.
Fear as well as love. According to Islam, a Muslim should be in fear of the day of judgement while at the same time, (s)he should also possess a desire for finally meeting Allah. Fear is one of the aspects, not the only one.

Regarding the madrassas - firstly, sorry but are there any reliable statistics regarding the number of Muslims who start their education at madrassas. Secondly, in my opinion not all religious schools are the same; there are several in Pakistan that I think are the ones being referred to, but there are others in North America and other regions of the world that are not necessarily similar in their methods (i.e., instilling fear). There are also a substantial number of Muslims I know who did not attend madrassas (myself included) - I think as with anything else, generalizations can’t be rationally made (just my own opinion).

Further Islam differentiates the humanity into two; believer, that is Muslims and non believer, that is non Muslims.
But does not every religion believe that it alone will lead to the “right” path towards God?

While this Muslim~non Muslim aspect has been hammered and critiqued at length, I’m afraid that there are many aspects of Islam that have not been mentioned here - what of the behaviour of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) towards non Muslims? You can ascertain this for yourself by picking up one of the books on Islam written by non Muslim authors; his attitude towards non Muslims, towards everyone whether Muslim or non Muslim, was exemplary - he never preached nor practiced intolerance nor disrespect. You have already stated that Muslims are supposed to follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - why should his tolerance and compassion be any exception? The 1935 book by non Muslim author Diwan Chand Sharma stated that, “Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him”, (The Prophets of the East, p.122). Nowhere to be found in any description of his character is the intolerance so readily affiliated with Muslims and Islam (in this context, I am referring to books written by reliable non Muslim authors).

Today Islam is more dependent on birth rate.
I apologize for asking for this again, but can I please get a reference for this.

When a State takes its agenda from a written book, it easily exploits and defines the dogmas to fulfill all dirty ends.
Precisely. Sometimes govts. will exploit anything to achieve their interests. In your example, doesn’t the accountability rest upon the State for doing the manipulation and exploitation, not upon the written book?

Further, here is something in person, a little away from the topic. You must have heard of J Krishnamurti. This gentleman was brought up by the Theosophical society that believed in the incarnation of new god of future. They found this child and expected him to be god of future. At an early age he was taken to Europe and as usual felt and went thru some revelations. For some time he started giving lectures, but soon at a very young age he rejected this spectacle and later went on studying and exploring the mind.
Perhaps inaccurately, my interpretation of the above interesting para. is that the gentleman Krishnamurti chose to abandon the ‘social cage’ he had been unjustly placed in as a child and finally embarked upon his own life in a free, independent manner. (Sorry if I’m wrong in this interpretation, please let me know).

I am not surprised if you believe that Islam is a religion that places people in a type of social bondage, where Muslims never think beyond what is spoon-fed to them from birth. If I could only somehow show you, Anand, that Islam is completely the contrary - yes it is an entire way of life, but one which is never intolerant, disrespectful, nor extreme. I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion and how one views the role of religion in life; for myself, Islam is neither stifling nor restrictive - on the contrary I have felt the opposite. I don’t believe that I have to stifle my thoughts to be a Muslim or that I, like other Muslims, am blindly following a faith that has no practical or positive application in life. No, Anand, Islam is not a social cage at all; please don’t rely upon the actions of Muslim states/individuals to develop your final opinion - not all are the same.

Once again, nice to see flowers. I will learn how you do it.
It’s nice to know you like the flowers so much; incase you ever want to make them, this is how - just type the following (without ANY spaces between the colon and the word)
: flower1 :
When you’re composing a post, there’s a link to the left of your screen that states “Smilies Legend”; it has the details regarding how to make these sorts of things. Once you get the hang of it, you will find it easy; let me know if you have any problems making it.

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anand.....

I asked you a simple question but never got an naswer.

Instead of mentioning thousands of big names I just chose one.

What does your history say about Muhammad Bin Qasim.....a Muslim general who defeated Raja Daahir of Sindh and then went deep in India.

Why did he come?
How many people did he have with him......

How many were forced to adopt Islam.....

etc etc

Anand......Do you know anything about famous indian super power in history......The Pirthivi Raaj

I would like to discuss that.

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**Sometime back Macdonald restaurants were attacked in India. A Hindu fundamentalist was telling on TV interview that this chicken or other hamburgers are an attack on Hindu culture. I just laughed that how a small hamburger could destroy such a huge and centuries old culture.
Whenever there are religious attacks by some Christian, Sikhs or Hindu fundamentalists on the other practicing religions, always there are good protests from the same religious sector and a demand for harmony is raised.
Whereas, Islamic world expresses cowardice against its fundamentalists. From intellectual Muslims we listened a few murmurs against brutalities, that’s all.

Quran has divided the whole world into two; Muslim and non Muslim. Further it gives a divine right to Muslims to convert others. Muslims take all dogmas from quran on the path of Allah.
It is rather hypocrisy when some Muslims say that quran does not profess violence and killing. Pls count how many times word ‘slay’ is repeated in quran.

I have some doubt. Islam is the most idol worshipping religion. All Muslims are bound to bow towards Macca. What is that?

**
[/quote]

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** Every religion encourages its people to form brotherhood with its followers, doesn't it?

**
[/quote]

Who said that??! How says that we should make friendship with non-believers??

Tell me how SUFIS (in late 1100) converted non-believers?!? These admiring personalities didnt carry weapons and killed non-believers......Ppl with different religion (hindus, muslims, sikhs, buddhist) still go to their shrines to show respect and seek for help. How come?!
Heah?!
Isnt this a better method (i think its the best method) than the ones Taliban and CO are using.


*“Ishq bhi ho Hijaab mein husn bhi ho Hijaab mein. Ya tu khud Aaskhaar ho ya mujh ko Aaskhaar kar.”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited September 10, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by zawiyaefikr:
**....

**
[/quote]

people of this era are "beleivers of media". they beleive in what they "see", it is difficult for them to beleive in what they can't see (actually this has been true for centuries).


We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
** Who said that??! How says that we should make friendship with non-believers??

[/quote]
**
Where did I say that? I said every religion encourages 'brotherhood' relationship among "its followers".

[quote]
**
Tell me how SUFIS (in late 1100) converted non-believers?!? These admiring personalities didnt carry weapons and killed non-believers......Ppl with different religion (hindus, muslims, sikhs, buddhist) still go to their shrines to show respect and seek for help. How come?!
Heah?!
Isnt this a better method (i think its the best method) than the ones Taliban and CO are using.
**
[/quote]

These admiring personalities may have worked thru love. They helped everyone regardless of religion, does Islam stop you from helping non-beleivers ??(but not to help in anti-Islam causes)


We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

I AGREE WITH THE POSTER WHO SAID YOU CANT CONVINCE A CLOSED MIND AS THAT OF RANI,OR ANY ADAMANT HINDIAN.WHO KNOWS WHO IS AT THE OTHER END OF THE MONITOR,REMEMBER YOU ARE ON PAKI GUPP SHUPP ,SO THEY KNOW YOU JUST BY READING COUPLE PAGES priorly,BUT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THERE PHILOSOPHY ,MOTIVE TRICK,ASSUMPTION PERSONA PREPAREDNESS,etc.etc.

So Nadia ,be care ful about yur long post unless you are practicing a career in writing thsees are mostly closed minded who are NOT ignorent in need of information but CHANGE OF HEART ,which allah can do ,None of the convert i know were "spoon fed" information but did there own research with appropriate help.I wish you all well.

I woud appreciate response fron nonmuslim accusing wrongfuly muslim to be more militarlistic than other people of the world.
INDIA IS NOT THE WORLD,as you hindian tend to think b/c of 1 bn oopl you have.

My Dear Nadia,

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We are looking at the same issue, just thru different angles.
I may repeat many a time that Muslims are not bad people, like any of other communities. My problem is that I do not know where Islam is a religion and where it is a politics. And it is not my mistake.
Pakistan was not an outcome of any referendum. Majority of Jinnah supported Muslim candidates lost elections held anywhere prior to partition. Then he took shelter of ‘Direct Action’ plans. Majority of Muslims preferred to stay in India. Is it a news for you that many Muslim families migrated from Pak territory to India, rejected the idea of Pakistan? Film actor Sharukh Khan family is one of them. One section of Mussharraf family did not go along with Muslim League. Though Jinnah had given calls for La ilahi something like that.
How can I say that Muslims are bad people at large?
Today the same ‘Direct Action’ plans we are facing in Kashmir. It could be called a freedom struggle, were all section of Kashmir people that is Hindu, Sikhs and Buddhists participating in.
Now some fundamentalists in Kashmir have issued fatwas on Muslim and Hindu women. Are not they exploiting the same La ilahi force for their activities. Tailors in Kashmir have made good money these days.

I admire the Gandhi movements, does not matter how many historical mistakes are stamped on him. He once said that he could wait for another 100 years for freedom least there was no bloodshed.

It is for some decades that Islam has become a target in press. This all happened when Gaddafi and Khomeny type gentry took the stage.
Was Khomeiny not considered a religious leader?
Many compare the Muslim infighting and fighting against others to world war I & II. If I am not mistaken in 20th century all armies fighting all these inhuman wars did not carry a religious flag. This is the reason that Islam has become a target.

Why the ideology behind the exploiters is not faulty, once it can easily be misused for dirty ends? Again I take the example of Socialist era. Das Capitol, the revered book of socialists. This book was implemented at large in two communist party regimes. The outcome was the most inhuman, ever known in history. Soviets tortured and killed Soviets, as well as Chinese killed Chinese.
Yes, for me accountability does not rest solely upon the State for doing the manipulation and exploitation, but the written book should also be answerable.
Shall we let go all violence without question?

Dependence of conversion on birth rate in our time is my personal understanding that I have read in different articles; hence I am incompetent for providing any web link.
There are lot of web links that expose the other side of Prophet life, are just anti Islam propaganda, many of them are prepared by Muslim names, I think is a forgery, and it will be very cheap on my part to bring in that stuff just to counter your arguments.

In one of your last statements you mentioned that discussion on Islam was a very sensitive issue. I suppose that a perfect religion, or a religion should not be afraid of anything.
I urged some psycho study of this particular religion, Islam. I am not supposed to write further, then it immediately attracts the censor.

Sometimes I do not understand if I am discussing a religious Islam or a political Islam.
This time I am trying to bring in flowers, if correctly done.

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Only if could offer you some real flowers!
With best regards

Friend Wasir,

In the above massage we were talking at length with Nadia, and you may again miss my reply.
I told you earlier, I have no knowledge of that period. Better you tell us a little or may be our friend rvizk may enlighten us.
Prithvi Raj Chauhan has high regards in Indian history. There are raso, Rajisthan folklores say that he had 18 battles against Gaury (am I not wrong, Gaury?) and 17 he won, the last one he lost.
In fact he had only two battles. Second one he lost.
I do not think that Indian history has correctly analyzed Prithvi Raj. He kidnapped his nice, a minor most probably, daughter of his cousin Jai Chand. And in the coming next battle Jai Chand forces were on the side of Gaury.

It is Prithvi Raj Chauhan who introduced an era of foreign rule to India.

Best regards.

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** These admiring personalities may have worked thru love. They helped everyone regardless of religion, does Islam stop you from helping non-beleivers ??(but not to help in anti-Islam causes)

**
[/quote]

Ppl used to be ANTI-ISLAM once. Even in times when our Prophet (pbuh) arrived in Mekka (before he had to leave). He used his love and his teaching (his magic) to "convert" and he was succesfull with it. And these ppl were ANTI-ISLAM!!!
He fought coz he had to!

I dont understand ppl...they give examples of JIHAD but they never give examples of the facts in Islam.
They never elucidate that there were great saints who fight with love and heart against non-muslims. those who are respected all over the world! Those who where more effective than Taliban and CO!
Why and why not?!


*“Ishq bhi ho Hijaab mein husn bhi ho Hijaab mein. Ya tu khud Aaskhaar ho ya mujh ko Aaskhaar kar.”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited September 11, 2001).]