Islam and Peace cont.

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
** Rani, many thanks for your reply. I have read some of those comments too that you referred to. At the end of the day, after reading so many diverse comments, you shall have to make up your own mind regarding Islam and the issue of how it views non Muslims and calls for them to be treated.

I have had this discussion innumerable times with professors and students, and although I hate to make generalizations, I have found one common thread in all of the discussions: taking a verse from the Quran and quoting it grossly out of context. (This is not solely done by non Muslims of course but Muslims as well, for whatever narrow purposes).

Koran is written in verses..killing and hate is not justified in any context.

**One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise - that's a quote directly attributed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection is another one. **

Why do non-muslim has be under any protection..what does being under protection means..why cannot everybody be equal.

Nor take life - which God has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law) - Chapter XVII, verse 33 of the Quran.

This ambigious...what is just cause..

As for forcing non Muslims to accept Islam - well it's basic human nature that one can't accept something that one doesn't truly believe in. If I'm trying to force myself to be a "good" Muslim even if I don't truly believe in Islam, then the only one I'm fooling is myself. Similarly, forcing anyone to accept Islam under the duress of taking their life lacks all rationality - Islam prohibits this: Let there be no compulsion in religion (Chapter II, verse 256) is an oft-cited Quranic quote to prove this.

The very purposet of religion to discourage human failing and human nature and teaching followers how to overcome them..."Let there be no compulsion" is over ruled many times by telling followers that idol worshipper will go to hell and asking then never to friends with them, never trust them, actually calling them untrustworthy and in the end telling followers to slay them. Also it is okay to have religious war and women and children are booty of the war.

Breaking of idols in Koran is idolized and made out to be good thing..that is teaching complete disrespect for other faiths.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited September 07, 2001).]

22

Koran is written in verses..killing and hate is not justified in any context.
In my opinion, killing and hatred are also not justified. Yes, the Quran is written in verses just as are the Torah and the Bible - none of which I believe condone hatred or killing. That doesn't stop some angry Protestants from hurling bombs at Catholic schoolgirls, though, does it - religious texts can only go so far in deterring individuals from committing wrong actions; the onus is upon each of us to use our minds. If I am immature enough to do something stupid despite the wisest advice from my parents, then I am the one to blame for lacking sense, not my parents.

Why do non-muslim has be under any protection..what does being under protection means..why cannot everybody be equal.
Perhaps in this context, being "under protection" is referring to those instances when after a truce has been declared, resentment on both sides still lingers; hence to avoid any unnecessary bloodshed, non Muslims were provided "protection". (I might be wrong, though). Why can't everyone be equal? In theory I think that's a great concept, but I doubt there is any society today that has achieved that.

This ambigious...what is just cause..
I'm not a scholar of Islam, but my best answer would be in cases of self-defence.

..."Let there be no compulsion" is over ruled many times by telling followers that idol worshipper will go to hell and asking then never to friends with them, never trust them, actually calling them untrustworthy and in the end telling followers to slay them.
If this were true that Muslims should kill non Muslims, Rani, then my family would be filled with murderers - doesn't every religion believe that it is "right" and exhorts its followers to not go "astray", follow the "right" path? I'm sorry but why single Islam?

And as for non Muslims being "untrustworthy"... I am Muslim, I have many non Muslim friends. One of my best friends comes from a devout Catholic family, I have never had doubts about her character or her personality. And never once have I thought that our friendship means I am not being a "true" Muslim. She and her family have their beliefs, I have mine. Islam does not teach us to be so insecure as to feel 'threatened' when socializing with non Muslims.

Also it is okay to have religious war and women and children are booty of the war.
Sorry, but can you please give the precise quote from the Quran where it states this. I have never read anywhere that children or women are considered war trophies.

23

Sometime back Macdonald restaurants were attacked in India. A Hindu fundamentalist was telling on TV interview that this chicken or other hamburgers are an attack on Hindu culture. I just laughed that how a small hamburger could destroy such a huge and centuries old culture.
Whenever there are religious attacks by some Christian, Sikhs or Hindu fundamentalists on the other practicing religions, always there are good protests from the same religious sector and a demand for harmony is raised.
Whereas, Islamic world expresses cowardice against its fundamentalists. From intellectual Muslims we listened a few murmurs against brutalities, that’s all.

Quran has divided the whole world into two; Muslim and non Muslim. Further it gives a divine right to Muslims to convert others. Muslims take all dogmas from quran on the path of Allah.
It is rather hypocrisy when some Muslims say that quran does not profess violence and killing. Pls count how many times word ‘slay’ is repeated in quran.

I have some doubt. Islam is the most idol worshipping religion. All Muslims are bound to bow towards Macca. What is that?

24

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**.....I have some doubt. Islam is the most idol worshipping religion. All Muslims are bound to bow towards Macca. What is that?

**
[/quote]

I won't address rest of your message, it has been 'addressed' zillion times and your heart is closed so this information will never reach you until you find yourself in DEEP trouble and then search for GOD.

How "pure" is drinking "piss"? Did bro Abdali not show you picture of "Hindu & Shoulder" (Hindu version of Head & Shoulder) ??

Bowing "towards" Mecca has also been addressed lots of time, since you tend to ignore so you won't understand this time either, so useless to explain.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

25

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
*.......
From intellectual Muslims we listened a few murmurs against brutalities, that’s all.
.......
*
[/quote]

how many Muslims do you listen to? how many Muslim media do you follow and 'beleive' in?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

26

Comments like the one made by you 2 makes a Muslim wanna kill a non-Muslim.

Btw, All you Muslims trying to convince these non-Muslims about Islam, is futile. Especially miss Rani. Hate mongers hate! Its in their blood. A donkey can't help but be a donkey.

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited September 08, 2001).]

27

[quote]
Pls count how many times word 'slay' is repeated in quran.
[/quote]

Please count the number of times the word "peace" is mentioned in the Quran.

In no shape or manner whatsoever does bowing towards Mecca signify that Muslims are worshipping Mecca; the significance of that city historically speaking is perhaps worthy of another post entirely. As perhaps you are already aware, bowing in the direction of Mecca also has symbolic significance - I know when I am performing prayers that millions of others, whether they be in Argentina or Burma, are also facing in the same direction. It creates a sense of brotherhood, enhancing Islam's stipulation that we are all equal.

28

My dear Nadia,

‘Slay’ has clouded the Islamic world thru out centuries since Prophet days. Rampage killing of non Mulims for the cause of Allah, as well as Muslims killing Muslims also for the cause of Allah, and all the time these killers carry quran. Who is to blame?

I would like to see the hidden values of peace in Islam and Islamic world.

Rgds

29

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by mbmagsi:
**

anand! Jihad means war against people who don't believe in one God and when we Muslims feel danger from people who don't believe in God.**

If somebody doesn't believe in God, muslims should kill them. Only barbarians can justify your kind of logic ...this kind of thinking has no place in civilized world. Btw, u don't own God and it is none of your business what others believe in..

**
[/quote]

Go back and Read my statement again before you start to use your brain (if you have one?)

30

Anand, I’m afraid your comments are usurping the traditional role that belongs to us Muslims… aren’t we the ones who possess the sole rights to being intolerant and narrow minded. I have defended Hinduism on this forum, to the anger of a few Guppies; even just on this Religion forum alone, there is a wide spectrum of opinions regarding religion. Imagine what occurs when 6 billion people are placed on that spectrum. There is bound to be diversity.

Some of humanity’s worst excesses were carried out under the guise of religion, and quite successfully too - colonialism being a classic example: must “civilize” the “savages” and lead them to “salvation”.
Sure we have Osama bin Ladens, Saddam Husseins - just as there are Timothy McVeighs and David Koreshs. Last year at my university, there was a bit of an uproar when some or the other group was distributing hate pamphlets speaking of an “ideal, Aryan” race.. (preferably Anglo-Saxon and Christian). That is hardly going to turn me off from respecting Christianity.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

As a friend, Anand, I’m just stating don’t make the mistake of having the qualities that Muslims are (unjustifiably) accused of possessing.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/flower1.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/flower1.gif

[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited September 08, 2001).]

31

My Dear Nadia,

It is always nice when we can have open talk.
I never say Muslims are bad. I have questioned the core religion and statistics.

There are fundamentalists among Hindus. We have a core cast problem that is never going to vanish from Indian mind. And I know that no one is going to threaten me if I say something against Hindu dogmas.
Hindus have definitely overcome a lot of disgusting dogma hangovers.
Christians have progressed and are not afraid of religion today.

But the Islamic world has glorified in killings. In Islamic world one can either be a Muslim or a dissident. Law of blasphemy can easily be provoked against dissidents.
This is not the same with other religions.

Rgds
(It is nice to see flowers)

32

anand.....< But the Islamic world has glorified in killings. In Islamic world one can either be a Muslim or a dissident. Law of blasphemy can easily be provoked against dissidents.
This is not the same with other religions.>>

A study of the following verses re blasphemy should bear this out.

04:140 When ye hear the message of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme.

28:55 and when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: 'To us our deeds and to you yours: peace be to you'.

07:199 Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, but turn away from the ignorant.

73:10 Have patience with what they say and leave them with noble dignity.

25:63 And the servants of Allah . . . . are those who walk on the earth in humility and when the ignorant address them, they say 'peace'.

16:128 Allah is with those who restrain themselves

09:74 . . . but they uttered blasphemy. . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them.

There are 57 more verses having a direct bearing on this subject and more than 250 others which emphasise forgiveness, forbearance and compassion.

In his lifetime, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was subjected to verbal and physical humiliation. He narrowly escaped assassination by migrating to Madina. He was accused of forgery '. . . nay he forged it' [21:5], was stigmatised as a man 'possessed' [23:70] and 'mad' [68:2]. His personal reaction, as also the reaction of all his devoted companions, both while in and out of power, was impeccable adherence to the Qur'aanic teachings. One of his regular tormentors, a woman (wife of Abu Lehb) once had to break this daily ritual on account of ill-health. In obedience to Qur'aanic injunctions, he called on her to offer his services in her household chores.

Does our blasphemy law ( I mean the present day's ) touch even the outer fringes of the letter and the spirit of the Qur'aanic position (core religion, so to say) on the subject? I am afraid the answer is in the negative.

But I would request you to learn to distinguish between Religion of Islam and the followers. And if something is alien to its teaching, it is the religious groups, none of whom has ever secured more than marginal support in the elections, have turned mosques into a platforms of political agitation and indulge in irresponsible rabble rousing in the name of Islam.

But I am sure you know that there is no dearth of such elements in any society.

33

But I would request you to learn to distinguish between Religion of Islam and the followers. And if something is alien to its teaching, it is the religious groups, none of whom has ever secured more than marginal support in the elections, have turned mosques into a platforms of political agitation and indulge in irresponsible rabble rousing in the name of Islam.

The very function of religion is to influence followers in a positive way if it not doing that and u cannot judge it by its followers...how else can u judge it..?

Btw, i have seen lot of passages from Koran on this forum justifying killing of anyone who dissents or tries to leave the religion. You have only posted half of the verses.

34

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
**Comments like the one made by you 2 makes a Muslim wanna kill a non-Muslim.

Btw, All you Muslims trying to convince these non-Muslims about Islam, is futile. Especially miss Rani. Hate mongers hate! Its in their blood. A donkey can't help but be a donkey.

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited September 08, 2001).]**
[/quote]

I agree that is why u hate and look down on everybody who is non-muslim and strongly believe in forming groups of us aganist them..instead of believing in universal brotherhood of all mankind.

35

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
** I agree that is why u hate and look down on everybody who is non-muslim
[/quote]
**

who 'looks down' and who 'hates' ??? Islam tells us to not make "friends" with non-beleivers. NOT MAKING FRIENDS is different from 'hatred'. can you not distinguish?

[quote]
**
and strongly believe in forming groups of us aganist them..instead of believing in universal brotherhood of all mankind.
**
[/quote]

Every religion encourages its people to form brotherhood with its followers, doesn't it?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

36

who 'looks down' and who 'hates' ??? Islam tells us to not make "friends" with non-beleivers. NOT MAKING FRIENDS is different from 'hatred'. can you not distinguish?

I think onus is on u to distinguish..i feel good and friendly towards all no exceptions..
Not making friends with certain groups because of their religion, race or color comes under the heading of prejiduce and racism..

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited September 08, 2001).]

37

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**.....
The very function of religion is to influence followers in a positive way if it not doing that and u cannot judge it by its followers...how else can u judge it..? ........

[/quote]
**

Current Islamic world has deviated from Islamic far far far away from its true teachings. Very small amount of TRUE beleivers are left in this world. Whatever you see around and watch in media is not the EXACT representation of Islam.

Hindus of today have also departed far from the teachings of Hinduism, Sikhs have departed from its teachings, Christians have left their religion LONG TIME ago, Jews and Muslims are the only followers who 'try' to stick to their religion but unfortunately they practice on selective basis... they pick and follow what they like/what is easy to follow and leave behind what they find is 'difficult in todays world'.

The general masses are not following any religion sincerely, completely.

People who have left their religion FAR BEHIND, find it very easy to accept 'similar' people (loose followers) of other religion because they 'have given up' or 'can give up' the 'opposing ideas' which they find 'harsh'. such people make up a community called "Humanitarians" and now are gaining popularity... thus making up a new religion.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

38

Rani & Anand

Please make your mind up concerning your 'humanitarian stances'. On hand you preach peace and unity etc etc. and on the other hand you preach pure hatred and jealousy with manmade misconceptions.

Your responses in this post and others is a testimony to your views and comments!!!

This type of behaviour is common with the Kafirs and is easily dealt with by Muslims.

However, what I will make clear is that Kafirs like you do not need any explanations from Muslims in any shape whatsoever, regardless of what topic you choose to discuss. History on this Forum tells us that your sole intention on queries is to satisfy your internal lust.

You are the enemys of yourselves, let alone Muslims.

The Qur'aan has mentioned the likes of you already:

098.006 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

005.085 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Not only are you the worst of creatures, but you are also the greatest enemies of the Muslims.

Therefore, in future please do not forget your position that Allah who actually created you has confirmed, prior to arguing your misconceptions.

Even Satan thought he was superior to Adam. I'm sure this scenario rings a bell with your logic of thought!!!!

SEE YA, CUZ I WOULDN'T WANNA BE YA!!

39

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Rani & Anand

The Qur'aan has mentioned the likes of you already:

098.006 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

005.085 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Not only are you the worst of creatures, but you are also the greatest enemies of the Muslims.

Therefore, in future please do not forget your position that Allah who actually created you has confirmed, prior to arguing your misconceptions.

Even Satan thought he was superior to Adam. I'm sure this scenario rings a bell with your logic of thought!!!!

SEE YA, CUZ I WOULDN'T WANNA BE YA!!

**
[/quote]

Really...and u call this word of God...i disagree, God cannot preach hate aganist anybody otherwise he/she is not God. God cannot call anybody worst creature or punish people by throwing in hell fire regardless of the crime...u are talking about entity which has no compassion and who is self servicing and likes to be praised, i refuse to call such entity as described by u God.

If the verses in your post are from Koran, which u follow, regardless of the context, i don't blame u for hating Pagans or idol worshippers.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited September 08, 2001).]

40

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
** Really...and u call this word of God...i disagree, God cannot preach hate aganist anybody otherwise he/she is not God.**
[/quote]

Rani, God can do what He wants - He is God!

There are very few emotions that is solely wrong. Take "hate". God "hates" sin and sinner. If He gives clear guidelines as to what "sin" is and the punishment if one continue in sin, surely it's us that makes the choice in life. If the law says I have to wear a seatbelt for good reason and I refuse, I can't blame the judge/system when I am fined - it was my choice.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited September 08, 2001).]