[quote]
An hazoor's 6 year old bride;
-his attraction & eventual marriage to what his adopted brother's wife - Zainab;
-a beautiful jewish female awarded as 'spoil of war' to the prophet and he couldn't wait even though the poor girl had her whole family massacred!
[/quote]
If these actions don't qualify as fornication or adultery, they at the very least demonstrate moral qualities that are questionable in the eyes of God.
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
**
If these actions don't qualify as fornication or adultery, they at the very least demonstrate moral qualities that are questionable in the eyes of God.
**
[/quote]
What yardstick are you using to measure whether these are "questionable in the eyes of God"?
Iqbal
[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
** What yardstick are you using to measure whether these are "questionable in the eyes of God"?
Iqbal
**
[/quote]
Sorry I don't have a hadith or Quranic verse to quote. I am using common sense since God did give us that ability. He surely didn't create such intelligent beings to soley rely on 1400-5000 year old books.
Even in today's immoral societies - to marry a child, accept a woman as spoils of war, or to take another's man wife is morally repugnant.
I try to base my moral code, character and inspiration on the teachings of Jesus Christ - the most perfect man to have walked the earth.
if you are god and you were writing a perfect book for mankind .
wouldnt you just say no keeping another human as a slave under any circumstances .
The koran tells you its wrong to eat pork which I dont think is as bad a thing as slavery .
ok Im not god but it just seems like something that someone in that period would write not something for all time .
[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
Pls substantiate via its interpretations or set of laws that i.e.
Islam was revealed as a MERCY to mankind
[/quote]
Iqbal,
For one who had so much to say about Islam, could not, yet again, answer a very Basic question:
**"Pls substantiate via its interpretations or set of laws that i.e.
Islam was revealed as a MERCY to mankind."**
Let me conclude on this as well or,
to say that Islam with revealed as Mercy to mankind - is a Sham and a Lie!
I wish you good luck!
[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
I see no proof that islam is anything but a man made religion with a set of rules for running a 7th century state .
[/quote]
Dear jonny,
Pardon my intrution, but may i ask, what makes you so sure that Islaam is a man-made Religion?
If i was to prove to you that it is not man-made, but rather, Divine, would you then accept it?
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
I see no evidence that it is divine
Ive never seen any evidence of anything supernatural
There is a MILLION dollar prize for anyone from any religion who under laboratory conditions can show any form of the paranormal or superpowers or miracles
]JREF - Home](JREF - Home
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
*
I am using common sense since God did give us that ability. He surely didn't create such intelligent beings to soley rely on 1400-5000 year old books.**
[/QUOTE]
Common sense! Whose common sense? Let's use homosexuality as an example of how common sense operates.
Until the reign of Queen Victoria, gay sex was punishable in the UK by death. Was that based on common sense? Then in 1967 homosexuality was legalised at 21 years of age. What happened to the earlier common sense? Did people in all the previous years have no common sense at all? Scotland and Northern Ireland only came into line with the 1967 legislation in 1980 and 1982. Where was their common sense during that 15 year interim period? In 1979, a government group recommended lowering the age to 18 because that was the point when "society deems a young man to be an adult and responsible". Why the need for change? Fifteen years later, Conservative MP Edwina Currie used her own particular brand of "common sense" and brought forward an amendment to the law to equalise the age of consent at 16. The move failed but a compromise amendment of 18 was accepted, advocated by groups who had a different outlook on "common sense". And the story continues...
Everyone walks around with their own perception of common sense. So by citing common sense you actually show that you have no yardstick at all. Or are you suggesting that your common sense is superior to all others and should prevail? I certainly hope not.
The above examples show that it is utterly laughable to judge 1400 year old history based on today's idea of what common sense is or is not.
[QUOTE]
**
I try to base my moral code, character and inspiration on the teachings of Jesus Christ - the most perfect man to have walked the earth.**
[/QUOTE]
How very interesting. You criticise others for basing their way of life on 1400-5000 year old texts and then immediately come back to say that your moral code is 2000 years old! Is this a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is typing?
Iqbal
(Note: This message, originally posted yesterday, appears to have been deleted during the recent change over)
jhony
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jonny2mad: *
**if you are god and you were writing a perfect book for mankind .
wouldnt you just say no keeping another human as a slave under any circumstances .
The koran tells you its wrong to eat pork which I dont think is as bad a thing as slavery .
ok Im not god but it just seems like something that someone in that period would write not something for all time .
**
[/QUOTE]
Jhony why the heck do carry on repeating ur self
in the last couple of replys u admited that u jhony2bad] can not define what is right or wrong so why on earth are u still saying i think this is wrong and this is this that so & so blaa blaa blaa blaa
I mean comone jhony u said what kind of religon allows killing in other words u ment killing is a bad action but yet at the same time ur admiting
that man cant define what is good or bad. so how are u saying anything agianst islam when u admit u cant evn define what is right or wrong.
I mean comeone jhony ur realy conterdicting ur self here
m
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by clubber lang: *
*
[quote]
from Iqbal,
"*Yes, but who taught you that these things are wrong? Human truth is relative - what seems right and truthful to one person isn't quite the same for someone else. There were, and possibly still are, native tribes in remote areas of the world where cannibalism is an accepted practice.
You and i wouldn't agree to what they are doing but as far as they are concerned there's nothing wrong with it. Their "truth" just happens to be different from ours. Human truths are always evolving.
hafeez
I am not sure what you are trying to say here; naybe a little thought should have gone into your writings:
"Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times."
If truth, as you put it, is evolving then the religious laws enacted by Islam are - LIES - having failed to evolve!
But, your point is that God's laws do not have to Evolve then there was no need for an-Hazoor to be sent with a new book as the laws of the Torah are adequate!
Torah did not get corrupted they just got out of "touch with the reality" just like Islam has!
HERE's the ULTIMATE test for the Divine Laws of islam:
Can the laws enacted & enforced by Islam pass the test that:
"Islam was revealed as a mercy to mankind"?
Is there any TRUTH in this or is it a LIE?
CUBER REPLYS
Shoo bhann allah praise to be allah that am not in the same sorry shoe,s as u. never have i come across someone so THIK!.
The point what iqbal explaind is the truth can nver change i.e if i tell u fire is hot and that is the truht then how can u say that fire is cold as ice bcuz now the truth has evolved if stealing is bad today then u cant turn around say ok stealing is allowed cuz now the truth has evolved.just present example is last year weed was seen as very bad drug and now they are trying to make it legal 50 years ago blacks were seen as lowlifes to the west now becuz the truth evolved[in realty abe lincon whanted power]
Homer sexualty was something wrong and now its called beening gay.what am saying is some thing that was like for e.g the way u treated the blacks was wrong but u still did it for like 300 years and affter that u realised that oh now it must be wrong cuz its in our benfit.the point is the truth will always remain the truth.
and as for torah being changed its like this
e.g if u wright ur name in a book and i come change it ur name dose this mean now ur name has changed think abt its not as complicated as it may seem to someone of ur intellect.its like saying if i was to wright ur death certtfiect in this artilce would that mean now ur dead.so u see the truth did not evolve rather the qruaan came and pointed out that that poeple are trying to hide the truth wich was origanly the truth.
So its not the truth that changed rather the text was changed by the people.
and as for islam being appilcable today the answer is quite simply yes .think abt it the last time islam ruled for 1400 years have the humans evolved in to antything else no rather we same as the humans who lived over 1400 years a go.
2002).] **
[/QUOTE]
Just in case u missed it!!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
*
How very interesting. You criticise others for basing their way of life on 1400-5000 year old texts and then immediately come back to say that your moral code is 2000 years old! Is this a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is typing?
Iqbal**
[/quote]
I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe in the literal translations of scripture. Christian and Muslim fundamentalists both believe they have the “special revelation” from their scripture – their narrow, literal interpretation of it. They view themselves as the “chosen of God”. Everybody else has been blinded to the TRUTH by Satan. Non-believers are consigned to an eternal Hell. How can one be soooo wrong and the other so right?
I fully reject the notion that the true meaning of life and enlightenment can be found soley in ancient scriptures. I do believe however, that the Bible was inspired by God to lay out the guidelines for man to follow. This was done especially for the simple minded that need stories to explain things they can't or don't want to try to understand. It is somewhere else where they can lay the blame. It is intellectually lazy. A divine justification for their racist, bigoted or male chauvenistic tendencies.
God gave us the ability to learn and grow. The capacity for humans to learn and achieve is unlimited with the resources He has given us (the minute portion of our brains that we actually use for instance). If the ancient scriptures are so perfect word for word and totally complete, why is mankind so far away from achieving greatness? I mean these books have been studied for thousands of years and we haven't got it right yet? Is it a flaw with scripture or man? And if the Quran was the final word, then why are Muslims in the dire straits that they are today?
Why has God given us 3 different Holy Books where each of those followers could be pointed out by 3rd parties (or each other) as going totally against what a righteous, loving, all-knowing, all-powerful perfect deity would want them to do?
I do believe that everything one needs is in the Bible. (For all know, it may be in the Quran as I have not studied it enough)
There are a few basic rules God laid out. The rest of it is fluff:
The 10 commandents
Treat others as you would have them treat you
Just because I don't believe in the literal translation of ancient scripture, does not change the fact that I believe Jesus Christ was sent by God to show us what we could all achieve. He was the most perfect a man as there can ever be. I believe that if the worst thing you do is try and emulate Christ, then your'e in pretty good shape.
And regarding common sense - if my common sense tells me to try and emulate Christ and another man's religon tells him it's ok to marry a child, accept a woman as spoils of war, or to take another's man wife, then I will stick to common sense and leave "religon" to those who don't want to try and use a little common sense.
Seminole
This is the whole problem!
Seminole states:
And regarding common sense - if my common sense tells me to try and emulate Christ and another man's religon tells him it's ok to marry a child, accept a woman as spoils of war, or to take another's man wife, then I will stick to common sense.
Instead of studying the Scripture, you decide to study the autobiography of the Warner, and still get it wrong!
Do you see us bashing Jesus,
No!
Why?
Because we accept ALL prophets as Messengers and to not distinguish one from the other.
It is your people who state that Mohammad SAW was the greatest man that ever lived!
JULES MASSERMAN, United States psychoanalyst and
professor of the Chicago University states:
"PERHAPS THE GREATEST LEADER OF ALL TIMES
WAS MUHAMMED, WHO COMBINED ALL THREE
FUNCTIONS. (and) TO A LESSER DEGREE, MOSES
DID THE SAME".
WILLIAM McNEILL, a United States historian, of the Uni-
versity of Chicago, records:
"IF YOU MEASURE LEADERSHIP BY IMPACT, THEN
YOU WOULD HAVE TO NAME JESUS, BUDDHA,
MOHAMMED, CONFUCIUS, THE GREAT PROPHETS
OF THE WORLD ..."
JAMES GAVIN, described as a United States army man, a
retired lieutenant general. He says -
"AMONG LEADERS WHO HAVE MADE THE
GREATEST IMPACT THROUGH AGES, I WOULD
CONSIDER MOHAMMED, JESUS CHRIST, MAYBE
LENIN, POSSIBLY MAO. AS FOR A LEADER WHOSE
QUALITIES WE COULD MOST USE NOW, I WOULD
CHOOSE JOHN F. KENNEDY."
I suggest you read the Qur'aan and then make your opinion, rather than '3rd party bandwagon hops'.
If we can take the time out and study the Bible, then surely the least you can do is show minimal respect and read the Qur'aan!
Noones asking you to convert, but at least be honest to yourself and read the Scripture before blindly swearing alleigance and dismissing everything.
If we took the same stance, you'd be banned from Gupshup!!!!!
.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
*
I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe in the literal translations of scripture. Christian and Muslim fundamentalists both believe they have the “special revelation” from their scripture – their narrow, literal interpretation of it. They view themselves as the “chosen of God”. Everybody else has been blinded to the TRUTH by Satan. Non-believers are consigned to an eternal Hell. How can one be soooo wrong and the other so right?
CULBBER REPLYS
Its easy there can only be one truth.
I fully reject the notion that the true meaning of life and enlightenment can be found soley in ancient scriptures. I do believe however, that the Bible was inspired by God to lay out the guidelines for man to follow. This was done especially for the simple minded that need stories to explain things they can't or don't want to try to understand. It is somewhere else where they can lay the blame. It is intellectually lazy. A divine justification for their racist, bigoted or male chauvenistic tendencies.
God gave us the ability to learn and grow. The capacity for humans to learn and achieve is unlimited with the resources He has given us (the minute portion of our brains that we actually use for instance). If the ancient scriptures are so perfect word for word and totally complete, why is mankind so far away from achieving greatness? I mean these books have been studied for thousands of years and we haven't got it right yet? Is it a flaw with scripture or man? And if the Quran was the final word, then why are Muslims in the dire straits that they are today?
CULBBER REPLYS
Yes i totally agree with u these aciant scriptures full of rubish they dont give u any sollution to lifes problems half of them are storry an legends made by man and the other half have been fabricated more times than iv had hot meals[bellive me iv had lot of hot meals]
Why has God given us 3 different Holy Books where each of those followers could be pointed out by 3rd parties (or each other) as going totally against what a righteous, loving, all-knowing, all-powerful perfect deity would want them to do?
CULBBER REPLYS
Like i said how can u say that these books go against each other when they have been changed by man to suit him for all u know they could have the same message in all the books
I do believe that everything one needs is in the Bible. (For all know, it may be in the Quran as I have not studied it enough)
CULBBER REPLYS
Ok u asked for it!
What does the bible say abt
Free trade market?
Types of ownership-privte ownership?
the means of owing property?
cultivation of barren land?
Hiring employing an employee [rights]?
Definition of work?
What does the bible say abt the basis of an ecnomicsystem?
What is the view point of the bible towards the econmy?
The way to dispose property?
Trading and munu facturing?
The laws of partenership compines?
Public property?
State property?
Nattionlised property?
Distributing wealth among the people?
Banks?
Foreign Trade?
and i havent eaven gone in to the socieal system yet.
so how can u say that the bible is everything one needs i certnly dont need it and half the that need there organic needs satisfing does not need it
There are a few basic rules God laid out. The rest of it is fluff:
The 10 commandents
Treat others as you would have them treat you
And regarding common sense - if my common sense tells me to try and emulate Christ and another man's religon tells him it's ok to marry a child, accept a woman as spoils of war, or to take another's man wife, then I will stick to common sense and leave "religon" to those who don't want to try and use a little common sense. **
[/QUOTE]
Truley u are a victom of this society
[quote]
It is your people who state that Mohammad SAW was the greatest man that ever lived!
[/quote]
Your quotes reflect the opinion that Mohammed was the greatest “leader” of all time. I do not question that opinion. After all, he led battles and conquered land. In his lifetime he led the conversion of multitudes. Jesus did not. He had very few followers in his lifetime. I am not implying that Jesus was the greatest “leader”, but rather that he was the greatest “man” that ever lived. His inability to rally armies, capture territory and convert non-believers does not diminish my view of him one iota.
I feel that Jesus said (and did) everything a man could do to become close to God - his peaceful, forgiving, loving and tolerant teachings are beyond anything in history. I do not feel that any Biblical or non-Biblical prophet comes close to his righteousness. Buddha may have come closest. What other man never sinned?
Many Muslims say they accept ALL prophets as Messengers and to not distinguish one from the other. But in Islam, it is Mohammed that gets all the glory. Which is fine, I am not judging anyone on that. Who am I to say differently? I only know what my heart tells me about my own spirituality. But please don’t patronize me (or fool yourself) by saying Jesus and Mohammed have equal standing in Islam.
I mean no disrespect to Mohammed. I do not mean to compare him to Jesus. It’s not about my prophet vs. your prophet. Who am I to judge you? But as I said, I believe Jesus is beyond approach. I DO distinguish betweem prophets. I am trying to explain my own personal views and the reasons for them. Each person must find God within himself.
**
[quote]
Noones asking you to convert, but at least be honest to yourself and read the Scripture before blindly swearing alleigance and dismissing everything. If we took the same stance, you'd be banned from Gupshup!!!!!
[/quote]
**
I assure you, I have not blindly sworn allegiance to anyone or anything. That would be foolish. I have been reading the Quran for some months now. I am not some ignorant that listens to ‘3rd party bandwagon hops’, thank you very much. I have been studying theology, philosophy and spirituality for 20 years.
Who's "we"?
I think we are approaching this from two different angles a Muslim believes that the Koran is the literal word of god and that it puts out the way to run the best human society.
I on the other hand see no evidence for any god I believe most likely "gods are make-believe" and without god man has to make up a set of rules to run society. They are not perfect rules because there are no perfect rules.
So when I say lets say slavery is wrong, that is just my opinion maybe you and “god” think its right under some circumstances to keep slaves. Maybe that is the way to run a happy society.
My society doesn’t think so because most people today can mentally put themselves in the position of the slave, or don’t believe that one human is innately superior to another.
The same with 6 year old brides that could be right to we used to have child brides in Europe .but most people don’t think its right because we don’t believe a 6 year old is mature enough to consent to sex or marriage, and that there are medical reasons why it is dangerous to have sex or babies at that age .also we believe that a much older person interested sexually in people of that age is very strange.
Having a divine set of rules would make life a lot easier
But just saying we have these rules from god, they don’t change, your rules change our rule don’t, therefore we are right doesn't hold up as an argument.
or to saying that with man made rules it would be possible for anything to be legal therefore there must be some divine rules somewhere just to keep us from confusion doesn't stand-up either.
You said how can you say a fire is hot today and say its cold tomorrow
Or stealing is wrong today and right tomorrow.
In this you are making a mistake of logic a fire is a physical phenomenon you can measure its heat.
Stealing is a human action on which we put ethical judgement they are two different things
Therefore you can’t conclude the third thing .
.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by jonny2mad: *
**I think we are approaching this from two different angles a Muslim believes that the Koran is the literal word of god and that it puts out the way to run the best human society.
I on the other hand see no evidence for any god I believe most likely "gods are make-believe" and without god man has to make up a set of rules to run society. They are not perfect rules because there are no perfect rules.
So when I say lets say slavery is wrong, that is just my opinion maybe you and “god” think its right under some circumstances to keep slaves. Maybe that is the way to run a happy society.
My society doesn’t think so because most people today can mentally put themselves in the position of the slave, or don’t believe that one human is innately superior to another.
Jhony u need to under stnad that that when we say it allowed to have slaves its not the slaves ur thinking abt like u guys in the west treated ur slaves as low lifes.
. *
[/QUOTE]
In islam slave is diffrent than ur western defintion of a slave.
In islam the slave has rights its prety much like employ were he agrees to a contracted were he agrees to hit by his own choice.unlike ur defintion of a slave that u consierd them as low lifes like for e.g the way u guys treated the blacks.so it may be that the west consider them selfs suppieror to other humans but not the muslims.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
*
Many Muslims say they accept ALL prophets as Messengers and to not distinguish one from the other. But in Islam, it is Mohammed that gets all the glory. **
[/QUOTE]
Not distinguishing between God's Prophets (as) and Messengers (as) means that Muslims accept that they were all sent by God and they are all to be revered. Muslims don't accept some of them and reject others which is what the Qur'an condemns: "Those who deny Allah and His Messengers and wish to separate between Allah and His Messengers, saying: 'We believe in some but reject others,' and wish to take a middle course, they are in truth unbelievers..." (4:150-151). So when the Qur'an speaks about not distinguishing between the Prophets, this is what is meant.
However, what is not ruled out is that some Prophets can be preferred over others for particular reasons since the Qur'an (17:55) also says: "We have preferred some of the Prophets over others..." (some translations read: "We made some of the Prophets to excel others..."). See also Qur'an 2:253. Some Prophets were given miracles that others didn't receive; some had many followers, others did not; many Prophets had successful missions whilst others were killed; the Prophet Muhammad (s) said that previous Prophets were sent to their respective communities yet he was sent to the whole of mankind, and so on.
And Allah knows best.
Iqbal
where did all these castrated happy slaves that worked in harems come from.
you really should read something about the history of Islam and slavery and its on a near level with Christianity and slavery.
why in the Koran doesn't it just say free all your slaves it is immoral to keep any slaves. it doesn't in fact it says the oppersite that you can take slaves and in the case of women captives you can sleep with them.
I mean there are definite rules about not eating pork which makes me think that it isn't a universal set of rules, but what the people at the time thought important.
at the time the Koran was written most people accepted slavery and lots of different people had superstitions about eating different foods
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by jonny2mad: *
**where did all these castrated happy slaves that worked in harems come from.
you really should read something about the history of Islam and slavery and its on a near level with Christianity and slavery.
why in the Koran doesn't it just say free all your slaves it is immoral to keep any slaves. it doesn't in fact it says the oppersite that you can take slaves and in the case of women captives you can sleep with them.
I mean there are definite rules about not eating pork which makes me think that it isn't a universal set of rules, but what the people at the time thought important.
at the time the Koran was written most people accepted slavery and lots of different people had superstitions about eating different foods *
[/QUOTE]
i dont know who were slaves? just non-muslims defeated in the battle?
at present if you ask a islamic scholar who would qulaify as a slave
i dont know what the answer would be?
in those days slave is one who were defeated in the battle?
.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by jonny2mad: *
**where did all these castrated happy slaves that worked in harems come from.
you really should read something about the history of Islam and slavery and its on a near level with Christianity and slavery.
why in the Koran doesn't it just say free all your slaves it is immoral to keep any slaves. it doesn't in fact it says the oppersite that you can take slaves and in the case of women captives you can sleep with them.
I mean there are definite rules about not eating pork which makes me think that it isn't a universal set of rules, but what the people at the time thought important.
at the time the Koran was written most people accepted slavery and lots of different people had superstitions about eating different foods *
[/QUOTE]
Let me explain agian these people where not slaves the way u think they where but rather they were fullfilng a contract by there own choice to feed there family earn wage e.c.t.
And as for taking women in to slavery its not something tha is Fardh rather its ur own choice so if u dont whant to take them as slaves ur not oblieged] u dont have to .
So bcuz today the women would rather be going to a brothell and earn a living there than to be a slave to a muslim who would treat her fairly look afte her health provide food for her, be knid her e.c.t .then muslims dont have to take the women as slaves.