ISLAM AND INTELLECT: REPLY TO HAFEEZ123

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
**Hafeez123 and jhonnytoomad can you please explain how the universe came into being. Also your opinions must be based on known facts and no theories.

The post was started as people claimed that Islam and the intellect are not compatible.

A complete blind claim!!!**
[/quote]

As far as Science is concerned, the two basic quantities that drives our common sense and logic are 'time' and 'space', are really not very well understood. The question how the Universe came into being implies that we know that 'time' is linear and progresses in a certain manner; that is far from being a settled matter. Time is clearly linked to matter itself as is space and it might not be linearly progressing everywhere. So in short Universe might be 'eternal' to which time might not even apply. Second the notion of space is also very funny when examined closely, and there are situations where two ends of the Universe may be considered at the same 'place' with no distance between them. Please see my post on "Is the universe conscious and intelligent" on this forum. No one chose to reply to it. I will be happy to get your opinions on it.

42

I did see you post very interesting pity more people are not interested in the sciences.
will most likely post on it tomorrow but going to bed
particle physics rocks :0)

43

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca

44

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca
[/quote]

dear rvikz,
don't worry, you're not the only one worried about the state of affairs in religion.

We should always be willing to speak out against our own and others as we see fit! That's the only ways things are going to change! Knock on Wood!

45

[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
** Yes, but who taught you that these things are wrong? Human truth is relative - what seems right and truthful to one person isn't quite the same for someone else. There were, and possibly still are, native tribes in remote areas of the world where cannibalism is an accepted practice. You and i wouldn't agree to what they are doing but as far as they are concerned there's nothing wrong with it. Their "truth" just happens to be different from ours. Human truths are always evolving. What is thought "wrong" today might just as easily become a "right" tomorrow. But this is not the case with "Divine" truth. Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times.

Iqbal

**
[/quote]

Thats it you just hit hammer on the nail.
see jhony the whole point is who is able to define what is right and wrong the realalty is jhony that u just use ur priveus info acording to how uv been bought up and what the norms of society are to make your judgement .so realy the whole cryitier u use to define what is right
and wrong,good, from bad is incorect.
For e.g jhony if use ur mind to define what is wrong what is right then u cant realy blame piedafile for what he dose bcuz all he is doing is useing his mind to define what is right and what is wrong and his conclusion is that its ok to rape little kids.

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

46

P.S
Jhony rather than going in to defense mode
for the reply try to think abt first just bcuz am muslim dont mean that atomaticly i will be wrong

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

47

[quote]
from Iqbal,
"*Yes, but who taught you that these things are wrong? Human truth is relative - what seems right and truthful to one person isn't quite the same for someone else. There were, and possibly still are, native tribes in remote areas of the world where cannibalism is an accepted practice.

You and i wouldn't agree to what they are doing but as far as they are concerned there's nothing wrong with it. Their "truth" just happens to be different from ours. Human truths are always evolving.

What is thought "wrong" today might just as easily become a "right" tomorrow. But this is not the case with "Divine" truth. Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times.
*

Iqbal,

I am not sure what you are trying to say here; naybe a little thought should have gone into your writings:
"Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times."

If truth, as you put it, is evolving then the religious laws enacted by Islam are - LIES - having failed to evolve!

But, your point is that God's laws do not have to Evolve then there was no need for an-Hazoor to be sent with a new book as the laws of the Torah are adequate!

Torah did not get corrupted they just got out of "touch with the reality" just like Islam has!

HERE's the ULTIMATE test for the Divine Laws of islam:

Can the laws enacted & enforced by Islam pass the test that:
"Islam was revealed as a mercy to mankind"?

Is there any TRUTH in this or is it a LIE?

48

Yep my view of a pedophile is just my opinion they are just my ethics not gods or a divine force. The pedophile may feel that what he does is ok. according to my view he's wrong but its just my view and my ethical judgement
most people in the world dont think pedophiles are right so they get together to arrest him but its only they're group ethic not a divine law.
all the human rights bills and most of international law is just a kind of world group ethic.

49

[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
Yep my view of a pedophile is just my opinion they are just my ethics not gods or a divine force. The pedophile may feel that what he does is ok. according to my view he's wrong but its just my view and my ethical judgement
most people in the world dont think pedophiles are right so they get together to arrest him but its only they're group ethic not a divine law.
all the human rights bills and most of international law is just a kind of world group ethic.
[/quote]

I think you miss the point what i am trying to explian to u jhony is that the mind is not capeable of defining what is good & bad.
you keep talking abt that islam is the only religon that kills. but the thing is if i ask u to prove to me that killing its self is a bad action. you can not do that cuz u cant decide for the if the action it self is it good or bad.i mean how can u say that islam is bad when your not evean capable of defineing what is good and what is bad once again u defeat ur own argument jhony

50

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
**
I am not sure what you are trying to say here; naybe a little thought should have gone into your writings**
[/quote]

That's a strange one. If you haven't understood what i've written, don't you think it's you who needs to do a little more thinking!?

[quote]
If truth, as you put it, is evolving then the religious laws enacted by Islam are - LIES - having failed to evolve!
[/quote]

Like i said, you need to do a little more thinking. This is why you've missed the point here. I didn't say "If truth, as you put it, is evolving...", what i actually said was that "human* truth"* is always evolving. Therefore, the fact that Islamic truths have not evolved, as you put it, is entirely irrelevant since Islamic truths are "religious" truths, not "human" truths. See the difference?

[quote]
But, your point is that God's laws do not have to Evolve then there was no need for an-Hazoor to be sent with a new book as the laws of the Torah are adequate!
[/quote]

There's two mistakes here. One: I didn't talk about God's laws, i spoke about Divine truths. There is a difference. Laws can evolve, but truth remains the same. Secondly: The Children of Israel had the Torah with them for generations, but God still sent them many Prophets, time after time. So the fact that they still had the truth of the Torah in their possession didn't stop God from continuing to send Prophets. This is because Prophets are sent not just to bring new laws, they also remind their followers when they become lax in their faith and of what they might have forgotten of the scripture.

Iqbal

51

[quote]
from Iqbal,
"*Yes, but who taught you that these things are wrong? Human truth is relative - what seems right and truthful to one person isn't quite the same for someone else. There were, and possibly still are, native tribes in remote areas of the world where cannibalism is an accepted practice.

You and i wouldn't agree to what they are doing but as far as they are concerned there's nothing wrong with it. Their "truth" just happens to be different from ours. Human truths are always evolving.

hafeez
I am not sure what you are trying to say here; naybe a little thought should have gone into your writings:
"Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times."

If truth, as you put it, is evolving then the religious laws enacted by Islam are - LIES - having failed to evolve!

But, your point is that God's laws do not have to Evolve then there was no need for an-Hazoor to be sent with a new book as the laws of the Torah are adequate!

Torah did not get corrupted they just got out of "touch with the reality" just like Islam has!

HERE's the ULTIMATE test for the Divine Laws of islam:

Can the laws enacted & enforced by Islam pass the test that:
"Islam was revealed as a mercy to mankind"?

Is there any TRUTH in this or is it a LIE?
CUBER REPLYS
Shoo bhann allah praise to be allah that am not in the same sorry shoe,s as u. never have i come across someone so THIK!.
The point what iqbal explaind is the truth can nver change i.e if i tell u fire is hot and that is the truht then how can u say that fire is cold as ice bcuz now the truth has evolved if stealing is bad today then u cant turn around say ok stealing is allowed cuz now the truth has evolved.just present example is last year weed was seen as very bad drug and now they are trying to make it legal 50 years ago blacks were seen as lowlifes to the west now becuz the truth evolved[in realty abe lincon whanted power]
Homer sexualty was something wrong and now its called beening gay.what am saying is some thing that was like for e.g the way u treated the blacks was wrong but u still did it for like 300 years and affter that u realised that oh now it must be wrong cuz its in our benfit.the point is the truth will always remain the truth.

and as for torah being changed its like this
e.g if u wright ur name in a book and i come change it ur name dose this mean now ur name has changed think abt its not as complicated as it may seem to someone of ur intellect.its like saying if i was to wright ur death certtfiect in this artilce would that mean now ur dead.so u see the truth did not evolve rather the qruaan came and pointed out that that poeple are trying to hide the truth wich was origanly the truth.
So its not the truth that changed rather the text was changed by the people.
and as for islam being appilcable today the answer is quite simply yes .think abt it the last time islam ruled for 1400 years have the humans evolved in to antything else no rather we same as the humans who lived over 1400 years a go.

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

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I dont think you understand me I dont believe in good and bad ,not like you do.
I believe in good and bad as a moral concept based on my and societys ethics.
and I could post stuff against the history of christianity and most other religions too .

53

[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
There's two mistakes here.
One: I didn't talk about God's laws, i spoke about Divine truths. There is a difference. Laws can evolve, but truth remains the same.

[/quote]

My friend,
The truth or any message is implemented via set of laws or interpretations! The same is with islam!

Let's put your Divine Truth to the test and it is a repeat from the previous post which I'll tinker with a bit:

HERE's the ULTIMATE test for the Divine Truth of Islam and its set of laws that testify to this TRUTH:

Can the laws enacted & enforced by Islam pass the test that:
"Islam was revealed as a mercy to mankind"?

Is there any TRUTH in this or is it a LIE?

54

[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
**I dont think you understand me I dont believe in good and bad ,not like you do.
I believe in good and bad as a moral concept based on my and societys ethics.
and I could post stuff against the history of christianity and most other religions too .

**
[/quote]

No i think u dont understand me jhony i am telling u that u JHONY2BAD can not define what is good and bad and u are admiting that then why bother saying islam is bad cuz it tells people to kill.jhony ur either very confused or ur talking crap

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 12, 2002).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
** My friend,
The truth or any message is implemented via set of laws or interpretations! The same is with islam!**
[/quote]

And the truth remains the same whilst the laws enacted to uphold that truth might change. Do i sound like i'm repeating myself?

[quote]
Can the laws enacted & enforced by Islam pass the test that:
"Islam was revealed as a mercy to mankind"?
[/quote]

Yes... next question please.

Iqbal

56

[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
The Old Testament does not show prophets in a bad light!? Some examples from the OT should suffice:

Noah gets drunk and lies naked in his tent such that his son sees him - See Genesis 9:21-22

Lots daughters commit incest with their father, making him drunk for two nights in succession and getting impregnated by him - see Genesis 19:30-36

David commits adultery with his neighbour's wife - See 2 Samuel 11:2-5

Solomon's heart turns towards other (false) gods such that he was not fully devoted to his Lord God - See 1 Kings 11:4

Aaron is described as having fashioned the golden calf himself - See Exodus 32:2-4

Doesn't paint the Prophets in a particularly good light does it?
[/quote]

When was torah revealed some 5,000 years ago?

And quran some 1,400 years ago!

IQBAL,
when you wrote the above did you consider the parallels in the prophet's life itself?

-An hazoor's 6 year old bride;
-his attraction & eventual marriage to what his adopted brother's wife - Zainab;
-a beautiful jewish female awarded as 'spoil of war' to the prophet and he couldn't wait even though the poor girl had her whole family massacred!

PLUS many more!

Or, do you just write!

57

[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
** Yes... next question please.

Iqbal

[/quote]

Pls substantiate via its interpretations or set of laws that i.e.

Islam was revealed as a MERCY to mankind?

58

yep my judgement of islams badness is just that jonny2mad own opinion .There is no cloud covered rule handed down by a divine messenger but again that is just my view .
I see no proof that islam is anything but a man made religion with a set of rules for running a 7th century state .
other people have written better books the only difference is the person that wrote this book claimed it came from god .
and ordered people that wanted to stop folowing is book killed .

59

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
**

IQBAL,
when you wrote the above did you consider the parallels in the prophet's life itself?
**
[/quote]

There are no parallels, and you haven't shown a single parallel. I gave examples of the Bible describing God's Prophets as drunkards, committing adultery, fashioning false gods, turning from God to other gods, and being involved in incest. Now show me where in Prophet Muhammad's life he was involved in any of this?

[quote]
An hazoor's 6 year old bride
[/quote]

Assuming that the age you've given is correct... Can you show me which custom or law at that time was violated by this marriage!?

[quote]
his attraction & eventual marriage to what his adopted brother's wife - Zainab...
a beautiful jewish female awarded as 'spoil of war' to the prophet...
[/quote]

Did this involve fornication or adultery? No! Like i said, you haven't quoted a single parallel.

Iqbal

60

If I am not mistaken, the eligible age of marriage in Iran right now is 9 years of age for girls or the year of first menstuation. I read that on one of the Iranian sites. I do not have the URL but please correct me if you know that is not accurate. I think that is how the Ayatallhas or Iran have interpreted sharia for marriage.
Pardon me it got changed to 13 in June of this year.

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jun/06242002/nation_w/747915.htm

IRAN: Minimum marriage age rises to 13 for girls, 15 for boys
Monday, June 24, 2002

TEHRAN – Iran’s arbitrating body has approved a reformist law increasing the minimum marriage age from 9 to 13 for girls and from 14 to 15 for boys.
The law stipulates that marriage of girls under 13 and boys under 15 will require court permission, the government-run daily Iran reported on Sunday. The approval is seen as a victory for Iran’s reformists, who have sought to promote women’s rights.
The elected legislature passed the bill in 2000, but hard-line clerics on the Guardian Council rejected it as contradicting Islamic sharia law. The Expediency Council, which arbitrates between parliament and the Guardian Council, passed the measure into law.

[This message has been edited by OldLahori (edited August 12, 2002).]