ISLAM AND INTELLECT: REPLY TO HAFEEZ123

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

[quote]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089:
** Okay, two questions for you to sleep on...

1) Where in the Qur'an or Prophet Muhammad's statements is there a death sentence linked with this challenge? Please provide suitable references.

2) Please quote an incident where someone in Prophet Muhammad's time met this challenge and was then ordered to be killed.

Good night.

Iqbal

**
[/quote]

Jonny2mad, have you had a chance to think about this one yet? Your accusations were so bold i thought that at least you'd have your references to hand.

Iqbal

22

Sorry, I haven't been paying too much attetion to this thread and am not quite sure what the challenge is all about:

1)The Quran is not an ORIGINAL document! It sounds more like the Old Testament of the jews albeit with minor phonetic & textual adjustments! And, this took over 23 years!

That is why - Islam is referred to as REFORMED Judaism!

2)AnHazoor had plenty of enemies in his time who either called him Fraud or did not believe in the message he was preaching. And, they were all taken care of in "the harshest term possible" and they are referred to in our sunnis book of hadiths/Sunnah!

So, I am not sure what challenge Iqbal is referring to!

It is inappropriate to label someone who disagrees with the teachings of Islam to one "full of hatred" of islam!

I am sure there were/are quite a few that stated actually that or "Islam spreads Hate or Quran was written by Muhammed" - both in an-Hazoor's time and over time right down to the present! And, they were treated as APOSTATES & BLASPHEMERS are meant to be under the laws of Islam!

These scriptures were for their time to INTILL social order with the fear of God and reward of paradise and eternal damnation of Hell! All three books and their teachings are seriously FLAWED except for those who believe and that is the extent of it!

[This message has been edited by hafeez123 (edited August 11, 2002).]

23

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:

**
So, I am not sure what challenge Iqbal is referring to!
**
[/quote]

If you aren't sure it might help if you then first read some of the previous posts in this thread. You may then get some idea as to whether the reply you posted is actually relevant to the discussion.

Iqbal

24

Why thank you, Iqbal!
Actually - I did and thus made some editions.

Nothing to get edgy!

Would you like to respond to my previous post?

25

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
*Why thank you, Iqbal!
Actually - I did and thus made some editions.
*
[/quote]

I've re-read your amended post - sorry to say it but i think you still haven't understood the "challenge" that was referred to. In any case, the two questions i listed were directed at Jonny2mad, i'm sure he knows what i'm asking. Thanks.

Iqbal

26

Jhony why dont u insted of getting batterd on every point.

Explain to us what u think abt man life univers and try to prove ur theory

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 11, 2002).]

27

jonny2mad,
what are the two questions iqbal is referring to?

There is very little difference between the quran & the torah and that is why jews when they read the Islamic Laws get FREAKED out by the uncanny resemblence!

Just because there is a verse that says - "To produce a book like it" doesn't mean anything really!

As a warning, it also says - that "not to believe is blasphemey and a severe torment shall be inflicted".

TRANSLATED:
*SHUT up or we will shut you up! *

The torah is a book like it! and The NT is a book like it; the Vedas are a book like it, and there are millions of book that enlightens and speaks for the time rather than claim to be the "true words of god"!

To say what I have said above would mean my death sentence and history is replete with such acts from an-hazoor's time right down to the present. And, that is the testament to its Divine-ness and authenticity! And, I won't even say anything about the sunnah/hadiths as per Bukhari and the others!

28

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
**

There is very little difference between the quran & the torah**
[/quote]

In case you hadn't noticed, both faiths share a similar succession of Prophets and Messenger so it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are bound to be similarities.

However, as far as the differences are concerned:

The OT portrays many Prophets in a poor light - vs - the Qur'an that vindicates the Prophets and affirms their honour

The Jews rejected Jesus - vs - Islam that affirmed his Prophethood and Messengership

The Jews cast aspersions against Mary, the mother of Jesus - vs - the Qur'an that maintained her nobility and piety

The OT hardly mentions the Day of Resurrection and Judgement Day - vs - the Qur'an that emphasises the reality of the Hereafter again and again

... and so on.

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
**

Just because there is a verse that says - "To produce a book like it" doesn't mean anything really! **
[/quote]

I've already addressed this in a previous post above.

Iqbal

29

Iqbal,

I am not sure what you have discussed and I do not wish to be-labour the points:

The quran is not an original document!

It has been phonetically & textually changed to reflect the time difference between the two: torah and quran!

Who updates the quran?
Or, is it immutable and has all the answers for all eternity?

Does the present-day Ummah look like it has answers for all eternity let alone - today!
Then, how is the verse "If they do not beleieve then to produce such a similar book" any Relevant?

Specially, when it is accompanied by WARNINGS of 'extreme penalty' not to deviate or repudiate the message?

30

The Old Testament does not show prophets in a bad light, it shows their reception by the people in a bad light. This was recorded for a reason. The Jews did not accept Jesus at his word because they could not accept his claims. The fact that most Jews had a major problem with his claims is a refutation of your principle of his prophetic status rejecting his Divine nature.

31

I dont have a theory but I dont think you have to believe in any form of god to get through life.
IM not really an atheist although sometimes I refer to my self as one.
Because atheists believe as I understand that there isn't a god. And I see no evidence that there isn't but I see no evidence that there is
I dont believe in any form of the supernatural.
I think the most likely thing is that consciousness is purely mechanical and that when the brain stops functioning so does the consciousness.
so I dont believe in a soul that goes on after death.
now some people will tell you that you cant live a happy life without some form of belief, but I have had a few near death experiences
I had two car crashes last year in one of which I damaged my spine and they were sure that I would not walk again and at no time did I feel the need to start believing.
my father served in the front line during WW2 and he never believed in any god and he is now facing a very painful death and shows no interest in any belief either.
I dont kill people or rape or steal not because I fear what will happen after my death but because I think its wrong.
any good deeds I do are just because I enjoy helping people not because in anyway it will effect my afterlife because I dont think there is one.

32

[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
I dont have a theory but I dont think you have to believe in any form of god to get through life.
IM not really an atheist although sometimes I refer to my self as one.
Because atheists believe as I understand that there isn't a god. And I see no evidence that there isn't but I see no evidence that there is
I dont believe in any form of the supernatural.
I think the most likely thing is that consciousness is purely mechanical and that when the brain stops functioning so does the consciousness.
so I dont believe in a soul that goes on after death.
now some people will tell you that you cant live a happy life without some form of belief, but I have had a few near death experiences
I had two car crashes last year in one of which I damaged my spine and they were sure that I would not walk again and at no time did I feel the need to start believing.
my father served in the front line during WW2 and he never believed in any god and he is now facing a very painful death and shows no interest in any belief either.

I dont kill people or rape or steal not because I fear what will happen after my death but because I think its wrong.
any good deeds I do are just because I enjoy helping people not because in anyway it will effect my afterlife because I dont think there is one.
[/quote]

This is without a doubt one of the finest post I 've read in a while! One that has come from the heart!

Thank you jonny.

33

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
The Old Testament does not show prophets in a bad light, it shows their reception by the people in a bad light.
[/quote]

The Old Testament does not show prophets in a bad light!? Some examples from the OT should suffice:

Noah gets drunk and lies naked in his tent such that his son sees him - See Genesis 9:21-22

Lots daughters commit incest with their father, making him drunk for two nights in succession and getting impregnated by him - see Genesis 19:30-36

David commits adultery with his neighbour's wife - See 2 Samuel 11:2-5

Solomon's heart turns towards other (false) gods such that he was not fully devoted to his Lord God - See 1 Kings 11:4

Aaron is described as having fashioned the golden calf himself - See Exodus 32:2-4

Doesn't paint the Prophets in a particularly good light does it?

[quote]
*The fact that most Jews had a major problem with his claims is a refutation of your principle of his prophetic status rejecting his Divine nature. *
[/quote]

The Jews of Madinah also rejected the Prophet Muhammad (s). Based on your logic, the rejection of a prophet by the Jews is proof of his truthfulness. Prophet Muhammad (s) never claimed divinity, yet that didn't stop the Jews from denying him as well.

Iqbal

34

[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
I dont have a theory but I dont think you have to believe in any form of god to get through life.
IM not really an atheist although sometimes I refer to my self as one.
Because atheists believe as I understand that there isn't a god. And I see no evidence that there isn't but I see no evidence that there is
I dont believe in any form of the supernatural.
I think the most likely thing is that consciousness is purely mechanical and that when the brain stops functioning so does the consciousness.
so I dont believe in a soul that goes on after death.
now some people will tell you that you cant live a happy life without some form of belief, but I have had a few near death experiences
I had two car crashes last year in one of which I damaged my spine and they were sure that I would not walk again and at no time did I feel the need to start believing.
my father served in the front line during WW2 and he never believed in any god and he is now facing a very painful death and shows no interest in any belief either.
I dont kill people or rape or steal not because I fear what will happen after my death but because I think its wrong.
any good deeds I do are just because I enjoy helping people not because in anyway it will effect my afterlife because I dont think there is one.
[/quote]

Good for you johnny. It is pretty hard for some people to live with the fact that we just don't know many a things. There are many a questions that Science these days cannot answer, and these include nearly all the Big questions that man has ever posed (See my post in this forum Is the universe conscious and intelligent). Reality really might be stranger than what we can imagine or dream.

35

[quote]
Originally posted by jonny2mad:
I see no evidence that there isn't but I see no evidence that there is
[/quote]

So you could be agnostic?

[quote]
I think the most likely thing is that consciousness is purely mechanical and that when the brain stops functioning so does the consciousness.
[/quote]

This viewpoint creates more problems than it solves. In actuality, such "man is just a machine/animal" argument in fact reveals the utter futility of unbelief; for it shows that without God there can be no ethical objections to anything.

If there is no God, then all the things that man feels and experiences all fall into the same meaningless category. Morality, tragedy, truth and sorrow become nothing more than "mechanical" empty sensations created by chemical reactions in the brain. If no God, mankind is just a container full of blood and water. And that's it!

If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. This means that you do not hold to certain views because they are true, but rather because of a series of chemical reactions in your head. Given your worldview, there is no real moral difference between a massacre of children and an evening at the cinema. In both cases, all you have is atoms banging around. Consequently you have no intelligent right to object to anything. So what if the USA bombed Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children. All that happened was that a chance collection of atoms calling themselves Americans bombed another set of random atoms calling themselves Japanese. And so what?

[quote]
now some people will tell you that you cant live a happy life without some form of belief
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that you can't be happy but i would argue that life becomes meaningless. All that you are reduced to is a series of unconscious DNA molecules floating around in this big universe of ours, you don't know how you got there and you don't know why you are there.

[quote]
but I have had a few near death experiences
I had two car crashes last year in one of which I damaged my spine and they were sure that I would not walk again
[/quote]

I hope everything worked out ok for you in the end. My wife and baby were involved in a car crash a few weeks ago, thankfully they were unharmed - other than being shocked - but the car was completely destroyed.

[quote]
*I dont kill people or rape or steal not because I fear what will happen after my death but because I think its wrong.
*
[/quote]

Yes, but who taught you that these things are wrong? Human truth is relative - what seems right and truthful to one person isn't quite the same for someone else. There were, and possibly still are, native tribes in remote areas of the world where cannibalism is an accepted practice. You and i wouldn't agree to what they are doing but as far as they are concerned there's nothing wrong with it. Their "truth" just happens to be different from ours. Human truths are always evolving. What is thought "wrong" today might just as easily become a "right" tomorrow. But this is not the case with "Divine" truth. Divine truth coming from the same God is not relative, it holds the same meaning for everyone for all times.

Iqbal

36

why it took so long for prophets to arrive
in mostly mid-easttern countries?
how long the the humans in presnt form lived on these earth without the present religens?

37

Hafeez123 and jhonnytoomad can you please explain how the universe came into being. Also your opinions must be based on known facts and no theories.

The post was started as people claimed that Islam and the intellect are not compatible.

A complete blind claim!!!

38

what if we are hit by asteroids all humans were wiped out ? will there be another
creation of human beings and the same religens?

39

thanks Iqbal Im pretty much better now although Im going to have neck pain for a long time but not that much. and IM happy your wife and baby are OK
yes I believe man is just some blood and water mixed together :0)
I dont believe there is a divine moral law in the universe if evil men are ruthless enough in some ways they get away with their crimes without judgement in a afterlife.
in a way your right if I wanted to be say a serial killer Id have no real fear of punishment in another life, just fear of getting caught.

I dont even believe that all people have an inner voice telling them they are wrong and in some way feel guilt for any evil that they do.
Many people do but I think it is mostly upbringing although there may be an innate component.
But some people dont.
Id like to think that by leading what we consider a good life being kind, loving,ect people reach a higher form of contentment with themselves.
Its not a very comforting world view I admit and maybe that's why so many people feel the need for religion but from what evidence that I see that's my view.
And my moral view is relative I make judgements based on my time and culture and reason and its evolving.
I think the meaning is in life itself I find it very interesting without it being part of a revealed divine plan.
I dont know how the universe came into being and from what I see it will be impossible ever to be sure. I may be wrong in this but that's my guess

[This message has been edited by jonny2mad (edited August 11, 2002).]

40

[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
Hafeez123 and jhonnytoomad can you please explain how the universe came into being. Also your opinions must be based on known facts and no theories.

The post was started as people claimed that Islam and the intellect are not compatible.

A complete blind claim!!!
[/quote]

Dear Khilafa,
I do not claim to know how the Universe got started or is there an entity called Allah!

I know that stars and stellar systems are regularly being destroyed and new ones created out of their ashes!

And, in the same way - our world will be destroyed too!

The above is based on my limited intellect & ability to comprehend!

About Allah, my intellect tells me that any laws or interpretation that associates allah with hate & intolerance cannot be from allah.

I hardly equate the above two positions as - BLIND FAITH!