Islam and independent thinking

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Hmmm... now its looking like a fairly circular argument, however, it was primarily because of Rushdie's example thrown in there.

So, lets get the focus back. There are plenty of people who are born muslims and once they reached some kind of mental maturity, they re-think their whole belief system. Many embrace Islam again on an intellectual level, while many others leave Islam and flow into more aetheist beliefs. You frequently hear terms like "born again Muslim" and these are the people who did independent thinking and verified their beliefs internally. Those who don't sync up, leave the fold. It happens all the time, and it will keep on happening. Islam does not stop your brain from functioning. Infact it encourages you to use your brain cells to gain knowledge and embrace Islam on a more intellectual level.

From a more collective stand-point, there are plenty of researchers and scholars who keep studying Islamic text and other historical references to come up with new theories on historical events. Many scholars constantly research various Islamic rulings to come up with new jurisprudnece. None of them, by itself, would give rise to violence against them, so its incorrect to say that Islam discourages "independent thought" or shuns it. There is a framework under which much of this research is carried out. If anyone wants to step out of this and do broader research, they are free to do that as well. Though that may diminish broad-based acceptance of their research once they reach some kind of conclusions. May be, not necessarily. Depends on how they carried out the research and whether their conclusions make sense to the people who are trying to understand it. Its very similar to any other field of study.

42

^ Points well made, Faisal :k: This exact encouragement of broad-based theology to discover the goodness/validity/reasonability of one religion over any other is what had originally driven people to convert to Islam to begin with. Anyone is free to practice any religion as they see fit and especially IF THAT RELIGION MAKES SENSE TO THEM. However, it does not give a person the right to encroach upon beliefs of a group of people simply if one himself/herself is not a proponent of that particular theology. I admire those that, having been born into Islam, have re-evaluated the religion and have embraced it ten-fold since it makes good common sense to them in terms of what it offers and its basic points and teachings. In addition, many the world-over are converting even today to Islam due to its sensibility AND mind you, its encoragement of a person attaining scholarship/knowledge.

I want to add that Islam is not about mullahs with beards and white caps on their heads nor is it about women covering themselves head to foot in the name of Islam. It is much much more than that. It is a way of life, it embodies every aspect of a human being and his/her day-to-day living. I am fascinated by the religion even merely from a purely philosophical perspective.

:flower2:

43

Every religion can claim it is a way of life. That is a silly argument. Religion is not the start or end or the catalyst for independent thought, it is a subject on which independent thought must be exercised to assign validity. Inability to question supposed divine mandates is the death of independent thought.

Furthermore, if Pakistanis spent half as much time in discussing achievements of arabs and look to their own ancestors (SP, genetically your acenstory is maybe .05% Arab and mostly indus valley. Thought process began and continued there until the 11 th century. :kiss:

44

Free thinking has a lot more to it then to think outside the box on religious jurisprudence. Rethinking religious beliefs & jurisprudence is just one part of the activism. And there is a difference between allowing free thought, from encouraging one and they both are totally different from situations where in a society people are afraid to voice their opinion due to fear of persecution.

It was once the prevalent thought that Quran should not be translated and any attempt to do it would warrant a death sentence. Those who tried to do it were persecuted very harshly. Now, it's a norm & something the religious elite take pride in.

Today, one wouldn’t see a Muslim researching on Pig meat in a Muslim country and any suggestions to do it will get the person suggesting incarcerated.

And I consider the comment “Muslims take their religion very seriously” a bias comment that hides the fact that Muslims in general are emotional about their beliefs because free thinking is not encouraged in Muslim society these days, regardless of how Islam view it to be.

45

Before we go into another circular argument... you should define how you are using the term: "free thinking".

And then you have to provide some logical reasoning for your statement that "Muslims in general are emotional about their beliefs because free thinking is not encouraged in Muslim society these days". If its your personal opinion without any logical underlying facts to support it, then ofcourse there is no point in further discussing it.

Oh, and by the way, as a muslim you can carry out all kinds of research on "pig meat" and most assuredly you will not be incarcerated just for that. Whether there is any useful purpose to such a research is another question. But don't let us stop you. :p

46

^ I know right :rotfl"

47

Faisal bhaijaan, I guess I was the first to define ‘free thought’ in this thread if you had made the effort to read my initial post :rolleyes:

And everything I write is my opinion, I hate copy / paste. That’s like a slap in the face of a free thinker (self proclaimed that is)

48

[QUOTE]
during Islam's inception, since Islam was the religion of enlightenment that allowed for the attainment of such knowledge, we had some of the most prominent philosophers, scientists, mathemeticians, historians, and scholars of all time who brought their knowledge to the world (and especially to Europe which at the time was stuck light years behind in the Dark Ages). Islam thrived in the libraries of Alexandria and Spain and Baghdad.
[/QUOTE]

That was then, this is now. Today, anyone who mentions that statements in the Koran should perhaps be looked at in the context of the time period (instead of literally) in which your prophet lived would be branded a Kafir. After all, how can the word of God not be absolute, regardless of when it was spoken?

Basically, it's "You can think freely as long as there's not a Koranic verse, hadith or Islamic ruling that does not conflict with your opinion"

49

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Stu: *
Basically, it's "You can think freely as long as there's not a Koranic verse, hadith or Islamic ruling that does not conflict with your opinion"
[/QUOTE]
Not really. You can think as freely as you want. You can even practice as freely as you want too. You can have as many opinions as you want as well. Its a free world, afterall. Just don't expect every muslim to jump up and down to accept and applaud your opinion just because you are a self-proclaimed free-thinker. As long as your opinion makes sense, its fine. If it doesn't, you will likely be the only practioner of your opinion. Its not much different than any other field of study.

50

Ahmadjee...

So I take it that you use the terms "free thinking" and "independent thinking" interchangably. If thats the case and we take your definition ("the pursuit of knowledge through research that is not constrained by any doctrine; religious, social or political"), then tell me, where is it prohibited in Islam? Infact Islam encourages its practioners to pursue all knowledge. It does not restrict its followers to just Islamic studies. If it does, then I must have missed that ruling. However, if at the end of the day, you intend to present your conclusion as the real Islam, then it has to conform to a framework. Else it will be your personal opinion, just as it is now, and you are free to practise it alongwith anyone else who wishes to join you.

And if the first premise is false then how do you defend the second assumption that "because free thinking is not encouraged in Muslim society these days". Except for some violent fringe groups that are positioning and portraying themselves as the real deal, constant retrospection and pursuit of all knowledge is never condemned. All mainstream muslims, especially educated muslims can have as many opinions and as much free thinking as you can take. In fact it is for this very reason that you see major Islamic institutions come in with new rulings on contemporary issues, rulings that sometimes disturb the status-quo and some of these fringe groups cry foul. You see the ruler of one of the largest muslim state on Earth declare "Pakistan first", something that goes against all fundamental Islamic principles of Ummah, and everyone in the country embraces the concept. Except for some radical groups, ofcourse. This is why you see Islamic banking institutions present Islamic banking that is nothing but interest-based banking packaged with Arabic names. You couldn't have done this 1400 years ago.

These are all examples of how contemporary problems are solved by educated people.

51

those who think that independent thinking is not allowed in Islam, please go and read Islami history and see how Muslim scholars have done so....
the islamic philosophical history, in particular, wud be a very good excercise....

mansoor's "ana-ul-haq" was viewed by the then authorities as more blasphemous than the claim of prophethood by musaylma kazaab....
the reason they were persecuted was because of the fear of spread of "fitna", but i dont think they wud have been persecuted for such actions if it had been confined to their own individual self....

52

//As a matter of fact, during Islam's inception, since Islam was the religion of enlightenment that allowed for the attainment of such knowledge, we had some of the most prominent philosophers, scientists, mathemeticians, historians, and scholars of all time who brought their knowledge to the world (and especially to Europe which at the time was stuck light years behind in the Dark Ages). Islam thrived in the libraries of Alexandria and Spain and Baghdad.
//

Great Claim !!! Give me some examples of the discoveries or rather inventions made. Dont give me some obscure name and some tool that the only person to use it would have been the inventor himself. Something that is widely used even today.

If Islam thrived in the libraries of Alexandria and Spain and Baghdad why is it not thriving in any modern library today. Why is it only thriving in the caves of Afghanistan. Has Islam lost its way. Dont start by blaming somebody else for your plight. Saying that the kuffar did this and the Kuffar did that. According to most of the guppies here Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and is the most progressive of all the religions. If so what is stopping the muslims from contributing constructively to the betterment of the modern society as a whole. By contributing constructively I dont mean "driving planes into buildings" and "beheading unarmed hostages".

53

^
ur laws of optics, ur mathematics all the way from the algebra to the calculus, most of the medical advances, astrology, chemistry, etc etc all were developed by muslim scientists....

54

Rash Guy, before going off and throwing as much dirt as you possibly can on Islam and Muslims (which you seem to so eloquently be doing :rolleyes: ) I advise you to go to the nearest library in your part of the world and read as much as you can on Islam, its pioneers, its philosophers/scholars, etc. to get a much broader understanding of what it is that the religion advocates and perpetuates (knowledge being one of these things). Your irrational “arguments” make absolutely no sense without citing examples and/or explaining exactly what you mean.

55

[quote]
Muslims in general are emotional about their beliefs because free thinking is not encouraged in Muslim society these days". If its your personal opinion without any logical underlying facts to support it, then of course there is no point in further discussing it.
[/quote]

As mentioned often on this board, there was a time of great Muslim intellectual enlightenment hundreds of years ago that produced many advances in the sciences, so Islam does not inhibit free thinking. I believe that it is Islam as it is practiced today that limits such thinking. What other reason would explain the total lack of recent intellectual achievements in the Muslim world? Muslims represent 20% of the world population, but probably represent 1% of achievements in the sciences today.

[quote]
There are plenty of people who are born muslims and once they reached some kind of mental maturity, they re-think their whole belief system. Many embrace Islam again on an intellectual level, while many others leave Islam and flow into more aetheist beliefs. You frequently hear terms like "born again Muslim" and these are the people who did independent thinking and verified their beliefs internally.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I totally disagree with that opinion. I don't think there is as much "born again" re-thinking among Muslims as you indicate. Culture in Muslim socieites discourages people from thinking outside of the norm and religion is pretty much indoctrinated into youths. I think that is because of the literalist beliefs in mainstream Islam, i.e. you MUST practice hijab, you MUST pray 5 times per day, you MUST greet each other in the appropriate manner, you CANNOT eat pork, etc. What kind of choice does one have but to go against family and society if a child wants independent thought? By the time he reaches adulthood, there is very little chance for him to re-think his whole belief system. This is probably more prevasisve in some countries more than others.

[quote]
Not really. You can think as freely as you want. You can even practice as freely as you want too. You can have as many opinions as you want as well. Its a free world, afterall. Just don't expect every muslim to jump up and down to accept and applaud your opinion just because you are a self-proclaimed free-thinker. As long as your opinion makes sense, its fine.
[/quote]

This actually makes the argument against independent thought being encouraged. As long as your opinion makes sense? To whom, the establishment? Then it isn't independent thought if it is defined as "not depending on the authority of others" or "not dependent on others for forming an opinion."

There is some middle ground where your independent thought is applauded and where you are persecuted for that independent thought. Can you honestly say that in most Muslim societies it falls in the encouraged/applauded category? Since I have never lived in a Muslim majority country I may be wrong here, but it is my impression that one is ostracized if these independent thoughts clash with the accepted norm.

[quote]
This is why you see Islamic banking institutions present Islamic banking that is nothing but interest-based banking packaged with Arabic names. You couldn't have done this 1400 years ago.
[/quote]

And that represents independent thought? I think the propensity to equate Arabic to Islamic is one the main problems with Islam today and hardly represents independent thought. It actually plays on the dependence Muslims have for all things Arabic, which limits Muslims growth as Arabia continues to be one the most underdeveloped, uneducated and myopic societies in the world. Examples of Muslims finally participating in things that the rest of the world have been doing for hundreds of years (the nation state, interest-based banking), indicates to me a lack of independent thinking.

56

Faisal bhaijaan, before you go on a defensive, maybe you can point out to me where I said in all my replies above that Islam doesn't encourage independent or free thinking?

On the contrary many here are arguing that you can't really pursue studies that are against your 'belief' or 'aqeeda' or 'teachings of Quran" ... which by default is an open ended constraint as all the above are tied to how you believe in the first place.

Also, I would like this opportunity to ask you to list down some great thinkers of Muslim world today. I wanna know apart from Mushraff, who do you think doesn’t follow the status quo.

57

Sweety, you can’t live forever on your past glories, you and me are living today. lets face it, the bloodshed caused by muslim fundamentalists is only second to Americans. Americans murder human beings to secure their power and gain more riches AND Muslims kill humans to please their Allah who doesn’t even exist. 75% of muslims interpret Quran only to justfy their evil deeds. it doesn’t matter if Muhammad would have aproved their actions or not Muslims still would do evil to fellow humans and use Quranic verses to justfy it. You know it is a fact!!!

58

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *

75% of muslims interpret Quran only to justfy their evil deeds.
[/QUOTE]

And 100% of people who say the above are talking out of their backsides...

59

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

And 100% of people who say the above are talking out of their backsides...
[/QUOTE]

And of course you are among the 75%

60

armaghul,

There are no parallels between Musailma Kazab & Mansoor.

Musailma wanted political authority & had massed an army to protect his political authority & one of his tools to justify his oppression was to claim prophetic divinity.

On the contrary, Mansoor was a dervish (and according to some narrations a Hajji) who had no political ambitions let alone an army to march into battle. His only sin was that he claimed to be god & in his moment of free thought he concluded that the creator & creation are the same (which, by the way is a significant philosophical difference among eastern & western religions – Islam being a Western one) and an angry mob murdered him on the charge of blasphemy.

Not very different from what the Jews charged Jesus with ...