[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
armaghul,
There are no parallels between Musailma Kazab & Mansoor.
Musailma wanted political authority & had massed an army to protect his political authority & one of his tools to justify his oppression was to claim prophetic divinity.
On the contrary, Mansoor was a dervish (and according to some narrations a Hajji) who had no political ambitions let alone an army to march into battle. His only sin was that he claimed to be god & in his moment of free thought he concluded that the creator & creation are the same (which, by the way is a significant philosophical difference among eastern & western religions – Islam being a Western one) and an angry mob murdered him on the charge of blasphemy.
Not very different from what the Jews charged Jesus with ...
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He was not murdered by an angry mob, he was chopped up on the orders of the ruler who came under pressure of the religious leaders.
Btw, creator and creation are the ONE.
Sher, there are different stories ... some say he was stoned to death, others that he had his hands & legs cut, some suggest only the tounge. I have found the mob one to be more prevalent ... though it might not be acurate. Walah-o-Alam!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Sher, there are different stories ... some say he was stoned to death, others that he had his hands & legs cut, some suggest only the tounge. I have found the mob one to be more prevalent ... though it might not be acurate. Walah-o-Alam!
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Well, may be you are right... but the fact of the matter is that he was killed for what he said in public. He was killed wrongly cos what he said was correct. Creator and creation is ONE. even if it is not corrct who the hell were those people to kill a human being who did not do any harm to anyone.
Let’s clarify something here contrary to the gross assumptions being made above…
Indeed we are living in the contemporary world granted, so you may wonder why I raised the examples of past icons of Islamic theology, philosophy, scientists, etc. It was to prove the simple point that if those individuals could ahieve so much in the heyday of Islam then it is not only entirely possible to do so today but IS being done! Our religion promotes “independent thinking”, education, gaining life experiences no end as long as it is within the context of Islam (meaning for ex. that we aren’t attaining this knowledge at the risk of hurting others and/or ourselves and/or God). Simple concept! Look at the recent Nobel prize winner…she is an Iranian lady…look at the brains behind nuclear arms in Iraq…it was an Iraqi woman scientist. The point is, these may be women which is purely incidental but they are Muslims in modern society in so-called oppressed countries who are thinking “outside the box” and using their God-given brainpower to achieve the most they can in their field (whether what they did is right or wrong is another thread altogether).
Today Islam is being abused by a minority which exists in the Middle East and in my view, this minority is uneducated, exploiting Islam for its own benefit. Of course this is extremely wrong under Islam but then again, I would seriously question the “Islamic-ness” of this minority bigtime. The people that fall into this category are on the wrong path and the only way they’ll wake up is via becoming enlightened and educated. Nonetheless, they remain to be in the minority and not to be confused with the great many achievements being made by modern day Muslims all over the world.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
armaghul,
There are no parallels between Musailma Kazab & Mansoor.
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i never did say there were parallels...
just said that mansoor, being a devout muslim, saying "ana-ul-haq" (which i am still not sure if i can classify as completely wrong) was seen as worse than what musailma did, although that was a direct enemity towards Islam, as u mentioned, an armed conflict....
was just pointing out how independent thinking, when colliding with direct principles of Islam, can get u into trouble....
armagul, you are missing the original question of the thread.
It's not about what's a better or politically correct way of expressing one's views. It's about, does Islam give individuals the right to pursue, acquire, acknowledge & express what they believe in [through science, as faith or political doctrine, or as a social structure] or does it prohibit any dissent thought?
From your comments, you seem to be of the opinion that Islam only allows free or independent thought limited to personal belief & any expression of it in public will have consequences. To which I disagree …
^
i never suggested that, was telling u that only extreme cases r intolerable....
e.g. during the battle of khabar, the prophet (saw) ordered the army to camp at a certain place, but one of the companions, using his right of independent thinking, suggested that the army camp much higher on a hill, and his proposal was even accepted....
the companions did not have to just camp their because the prophet ordered them....
and neither was the companion afraid of giving out a view that opposed the prophet....
so the point is to think but not to go ahead and declare Islam as wrong, cuz then u automatically take urself out of the fold of Islam....
and even in matters of religion, u r given the right to think, commonly knows as "ijtihaad", but if someone says, i think praying is a waste of time and hence shud be nullified, then u dont call it just a way of thinking....
uffo, bhai I am not discussing what's correct or incorrent thought but does Islam as a religion promotes a society that gives you the right to even think & express a thought like 'prayers are a waste of time' or does it not?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
uffo, bhai I am not discussing what's correct or incorrent thought but does Islam as a religion promotes a society that gives you the right to even think & express a thought like 'prayers are a waste of time' or does it not?
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Here is the answer mate, NO religion promotes a society where people can have a right to think independently that includes Islam. You have to break free from religion and denounce the tyrany of religion to be a complete human being with a right to live free. All this bloodshed is a product of religious thinking. What use of a God who never did anything to help humans. And yes,, it is a waste of time to pray.
//ur laws of optics, ur mathematics all the way from the algebra to the calculus, most of the medical advances, astrology, chemistry, etc etc all were developed by muslim scientists....//
Why only most ??? Why not say all of the medical advances...
Louis pasteur was a muslim
Isaac Newton was a muslim
Alexander Fleming was a muslim
and the list goes on right...
Please come back to reality.
I would just like to take the discussion a step back if i may, and clarify just what we mean by independent thinking.
Thinking itself is making judgements upon things, these judgements are made based upon the previous information we have about the subject, which we use to decide whether we like it or not for example.
So based upon this, no thought is 'independent', but all thought is dependent upon the previous information we have, which forms our viewpoint on life and guides how we look a things.
So for example, a non-muslim may want to invest his money in an interest bearing bank account, this from his point of view is fine as he believes that he is free to do what he pleases, this is the view he has which his decision is based on. A muslim would not invest his money in this way, as he holds the view that he is not free to act as he pleases, but is restricted by a greater power in his actions.
So the question becomes, which of these viewpoints has the most solid basis?
