The reason I mention Rushdie is that he is most visible (out of the few) independent thinkers in Islam today. Compare him to Dan Brown, whose historical fiction 'The Da Vinci Code', is considered blasphemous by many Christians. The one that represents a religion or culture that allows independent thought is a best selling author sitting atop the best seller's list for months. The other is in hiding for the rest of his life because clerics have issued a fatwa for his death. Pretty telling tale of how much "independent thinking is allowed/encouraged in Islam".
So Semi you think that disrespecting and slandering the prophet makes him very independent thinker?
My point is that his censorship indicates that independent thinking is not allowed/encouraged in Islam.
^
independent thinking does not mean that u come and insult Allah or His messenger(s)....
just as free speech does not mean that u insult anyone and assume u wont be questioned about it....
Semi, I do not know your intentions, I am just reading what you wrote. So I think we can come up with better examples which shows signs stopping independent thinking other than Rushdi. I think in Islam censorship dosent indicate that there is no independent thinking. For example, Islam uses the cencorship to protects not only one but all the Prophets.
It's an interesting discussion so far. So, how can you do independent thinking and not be considered blasphemous? I mean, that was the first charge put on the Holy Prophet (saw) himself.
That being said, freedom of speech is not absolute. That is defined by the society you live in.
The example of Mansoor & his quest of anul-haq * and then his persecution comes to mind.*
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The reason I mention Rushdie is that he is most visible (out of the few) independent thinkers in Islam today. Compare him to Dan Brown, whose historical fiction 'The Da Vinci Code', is considered blasphemous by many Christians. The one that represents a religion or culture that allows independent thought is a best selling author sitting atop the best seller's list for months. The other is in hiding for the rest of his life because clerics have issued a fatwa for his death. Pretty telling tale of how much "independent thinking is allowed/encouraged in Islam".
[/QUOTE]
Muslims do tend to take their religion much more seriously than, perhaps, christians. For this reason you don't see any jokes made on our Messanger (Peace be upon him), or any images or even any fictional stories. So, if this makes muslims not very "cool" then be it.
At the same time, let it not be said that muslims don't allow or not allow independent thinking amongst themselves. There is a way of making your point, and as long as it is respectful and polite, no one is perturbed greatly. Small fanatical minorities, notwithstanding.
Another way to look at it, the christians are more comfortable in tehir own pious skins and can withstand Da Vinci code and other docufictions whereas muslims are perceived, because of their actions, as insecure.
I don't think its a matter of insecurity or lack thereof. Its a matter of respect. Some things are not meant to be made into jokes. Religion, for muslims, is one of them. For many muslims, they have a low threshold for tolerance when it comes to mocking about their messanger (peace be upon him) and their faith, just as many people have low threshold when someone mocks their parents, family or personal traits.
therefore the lack of independent thinking...Q.E.D
You have a very narrow definition of "independent thinking".
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
My point is that his censorship indicates that independent thinking is not allowed/encouraged in Islam.
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You have a pretty warped understanding of what "independent thinking" means. Rushdie's no more an independent thinker on Islam than the fanatical and unqualified Ayatollah who issued the death fatwa. He (the Ayatollah) must have known that people would seek to take the law into their own hands.
Actually it is quite the opposite.
People dismiss a fictiious novel, hurl abuses even on this BB at Rushdie without having even read the book. While Da Vinci code is a best seller in America. Go figure...
Indeed :k:
Seminole, get your head checked dude. Rushdie is an Islam-hater, a radically different concept than him thinking independently, I guarantee you that.
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Independent thinking means "not depending on the authority of others" or "not dependent on others for forming an opinion." Sorry, but Rushdie's writings fall under this definition. To say that Muslims take their religion much more seriously is really just another way to say that they discourage thinking that is not dependent on the authority of others and not dependent on others for forming an opinion. There are all kinds of theories regarding Muhammed and his life that are legitimate topics to discuss whether it offends others or not. You can say that is mocking or hatred or an insult or blasphemous or a matter of respect but bottom line is that indpendent thought is discouraged, but for dogmatic rather than intellectual reasons.
But let's not limit this discussion to Rusdhie, it was just an obvious example. I also find that conservative Christians limit independent thought as I believe is normal for literalists (which mainstream Islam is) It tends to get in the way of memorizing texts. When one accepts texts as perfrection that lay out every facet of life and absolute submission, it goes without say that critical and indpendent thought are discouraged.
Where DO you come up with this BS?!@#$%
Wake up and smell the coffee and mind what all of us are saying here. Go back and read all the posts and try to understand the logic with which we’re coming from on this re: the Rushdie example. Even though, as per you, it is only an example, I’m sure there are numerous other such examples which can be explained away with a good explanation or two if you care to acknowledge the facts.
Mind you also, I don’t know if you’re Muslim or not but do us a huge favor and do NOT confuse or use interchangeably (or mix up the concepts relative to) Islam and the holy Koran. Islam allows full well and even encourages the concept of “independent thinking” within scope of our religion however we cannot question the validity or text of the holy Koran as, since we are Muslims, we believe it to be directly the word of God. Having said that, it gives you no right to question or blasphemize Our Prophet (PBUH) and his teaching, making it seem as though hiding behind the cloak of what you define as “independent thinking” is proper and reasonable.
SO much for independent thought. I think the question should be “Does islam promote circular logic?”
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*Originally posted by sweetpie: *
Mind you also, I don't know if you're Muslim or not but do us a huge favor and do NOT confuse or use interchangeably (or mix up the concepts relative to) Islam and the holy Koran. Islam allows full well and even encourages the concept of "independent thinking" within scope of our religion however we cannot question the validity or text of the holy Koran as, since we are Muslims, we believe it to be directly the word of God. Having said that, it gives you no right to question or blasphemize Our Prophet (PBUH) and his teaching, making it seem as though hiding behind the cloak of what you define as "independent thinking" is proper and reasonable.
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Wrong. I have EVERY right to question your prophet as well as any other prophet (since they are all equal, right?) But I am not - and have not - done that in this thread or any other on this board as I am well aware of the sensitivities regarding that subject. YOU are the one who has no right to question your prophet.
I am not a Muslim, so the facts for me and the facts for you are entirely different. I do not believe the Quran to be the literal word from God nor do I believe Muhammed his final prophet. Is that blasphemous to say so or independent thinking?
How can there be any independent thinking if it is only allowed within the scope of your religion when your religion covers every facet of life? Doesn't leave much territory to exercise your right of independent thought, does it?
^ Firstly, I just want to say that I respect your views as a fellow human being although you don’t acknowledge our Prophet (PBUH) or believe in the Koran as Allah mian’s last word (since obviously you stated yourself that you aren’t Muslim). Thanks for the clarification.
Secondly (and this is the last time I will emphazise as the point has been beaten to death already), Islam full well allows and encourages “independent thinking” WITHIN CONFINES OF ISLAM. To reiterate for your benefit, this simply means that we are to strive for as much knowledge as we possibly can (ex. about philosophy, science…the stars/space/earth…blah blah blah, histories of our predecessors, past wars, science and technology, literature, art and architecture,…and the list goes on and on and on). As a matter of fact, during Islam’s inception, since Islam was the religion of enlightenment that allowed for the attainment of such knowledge, we had some of the most prominent philosophers, scientists, mathemeticians, historians, and scholars of all time who brought their knowledge to the world (and especially to Europe which at the time was stuck light years behind in the Dark Ages). Islam thrived in the libraries of Alexandria and Spain and Baghdad.
Given the above, I challenge you to respond as to how Islam can possibly ever limit the attainment of knowledge due to the religion permeating every part of our lives. Of course Islam guides us on every aspect of daily life (that is a fact of Islam which cannot be argued in my book) but I want to know how you can make the connection between that and how it limits the attainment of knowledge.
Let’s hear it.
