Yeah, sure things which you can not prove; right? Anybody can make claims, does it means we have to worry about their baseless claims?
As for opposition to Jewish and Christian’s beliefs, do you read Quran? Can’t you see Quran is full of fallacies they have in their beliefs? There was no need for Mirza, or any role for him in Islam, apart from his heresies and lies.
Mr. Popat, you better keep this thread to the evidence from the Quran, which I have tried to concentrate on, and still would. I am here to expose your dishonesty in starting this thread.
That is all your fallacy, where in the Quran does it says he would die of natural death, that’s why we are having this debate, like I said, natural death is no where in the Quran, it is just your Mirza’s concoctions, he borrowed. There is no such word in the verse which can equate to “Natural Death”. You know it too. I will prove it why he inserted it and from where he borrowed the idea, so wait and see. Why should I worry about your concocted translations borrowed by Mirza?
The first part of this quotation is hilarious once again. Quran clears Isa AS from the allegations, but so did the New Testament; which also maintained that he was born of a Virgin Mary. The New Testament we all know was in existence before the revelations of the Holy Quran. That’s not the main purpose of the Holy Quran. The New Testament brought this false notion of his As divinity, due to his As birth without father; he As was born with the command of Allah SWT “Be” or “Kun”. Quran actually clarify and dispels this misconception of the Christians.
Can’t you see Mr. Popat, I am having this debate with you on your chosen meaning “cause you to die” 3:55 from the translation of Asad? There is a whole lot difference between “cause you to die” and “cause you to die a natural death”, which is fabrication of Mirza, based on him plagarising idea of some one. I will provide proofs of it.
Asad translations and his explanations, make perfect sense, while Mirza’s explanations are full of lies and deceit. That’s what I am exploring. So be patient. I will come to those “remarkable lies” oh I forgot you call them “remarkable truth” Mirza paddled.
As we can see, you despite making claims to discuss it from the Holy Quran you are unable to answer one simple question from the Holy Quran in support of Mirza and your Jamat.
Mr. Popat you didn’t give me the clarifications I asked in my last post, therefore, I take it you wanted to mean that this conversation happened after the crucifixion; in that case you are going against Mirza. That’s a good start.
My Muslim brothers and sisters, Mr. Popat has said something remarkable, which is against what Mirza said, I have already displayed it in my previous post.
He is basically either is accusing Allah SWT of lies (nauzobillah). He is saying that in the Quran Allah SWT brought this conversation as an after event because the Jews said they killed Isa As and the Christians said he As has ascended to the Heaven after the resurrection. Or he wanted to say that Allah SWT had this conversation after the crucifixion with Isa As, in other words, probably he meant either in Palestine or in Kashmir. I asked him to clarify but he refused.
Mr. Popat is trying to prove Qadianis invention “cause you to die natural death” instead of “cause you to die” which some Muslims believe too. We will come to that part in the end. But here let me bust this argument of Mr. Popat from the Holy Quran.
My Muslim Brothers and Sisters, this man open this thread for us Muslims to discuss the issue of death of Isa As from the Holy Quran and to understand the claims of Mirza. But what this illiterate is doing is making fun of the Word of Allah SWT, exactly like Mirza made fun of the Word of Allah SWT. Mirza associated white lies to Allah SWT by claiming his lies as alleged revelations, some of which I have exposed and others I will gradually, Inshallah.
I provided him quotations from Mirza and Zafrullah that they knew this conversation took place before the crucifixion. But he just doesn’t get it. He is writing heresies after heresies against Holy Quran, Word of Allah, but he has absolutely no fear, instead he thinks he has done some thing wonderful. This is apparent they way he is trying to laugh with his other cultist by using smiles.
He has the audacity to write that I have made up my mind. I am discussing his chose meanings of the verse 3:55. Nowhere, I have stated my beliefs, or my understandings. I am just going through with him the Quranic evidence with logical approach.
By now everyone knows that this man has not offer one explanation from the Holy Quran for each and every question I asked of him. He is making hallow claims to discuss it in the light of the Holy Quran. His purpose was purely to introduce the well rehearsed line of reasoning and quotations, which are taught to these Qadianis in their training schools.
He also wanted to look at proceeding and following Verses to 3:55, now is the right time to introduce one preceding verse, which Mr. Popat has ignored completely. Just to prove that timing of this conversation is important. The timing of this conversation is mentioned in the Holy Quran by Allah SWT but ignorant like Mr. Popat are hell bound to follow the lies of Mirza, it is he who has made up his mind, after reading and accepting lies of discredited Mirza, the biggest Mullah of them all, a so called prophet with begging bowl in his hands.
Let me prove it to all of you My Muslim brothers and sisters, how ignorant Mr. Popat really is from the teachings of the Holy Quran.
We start from Verse 3:52 of Surah Imran.
فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَى مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ (3:52)
3:52 And when Jesus became aware of their refusal to acknowledge the truth, he asked: “Who will be my helpers in God’s cause?” The white-garbed ones replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him!
This verse is crystal clear; the refusal was by the Jews to acknowledge the truth of Isa As. Isa As asked who would be his As helpers in the cause of God. The white-garbed ones replied, they would be helper in the cause of God.
Who were these White-Garbed ones? Asad, has provided full details of these people in his tafsir, That’s why I have written earlier, that ASAD’s meaning of “cause you to die” is completely different from the concoctions of Qadianis “cause you to die a natural death”.
Mirza inserted natural death to further his claims of being the re-incarnation of ISA As. Asad has provided full justifications for his use of “cause you to die”. His justifications are very plausible, right or wrong, he has put forward his point of view eloquently. Unlike Mirza who has introduced invention to the Holy Quran, by introducing “natural death” in to “cause you to die”.
According to Asad, white Garbs one’s denoted to Essence, according to some Scholars Jesus himself was an essence, Allah SWT Knows the best.
3:53 O our Sustainer! We believe in what Thou hast bestowed from on high, and we follow this Apostle; make us one, then, with all who bear witness [to the truth]!"
The white garbed, then prayed to Allah SWT, to make them one who bears witness to Prophet Isa As.
This is proven from the recently discovered dead sea scrolls. That Essence decided to move in to the mountains to live in caves, they didn’t have distorted their views like Christians.
Therefore, Quran very clearly decreed, when this conversation between Allah SWT and Isa As took place. It took place just before the alleged crucifixion.
But people like Mr. Popat are only interested to paddle their lies and concoctions. They do not hesitate for one single minute to attribute lies to the Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT. Muslim should ponder; this Mr. Popat is so ignorant about the teachings of Holy Quran, he didn’t have a clue on what the Verses really pointing to, in Surah Imran. He attributed such lies to the Word of Allah SWT by claiming Allah SWT had this discussion with ISA AS, after Christians were calling him AS god, and Jews were claiming they killed him.
So much so for this ignorant to invite Muslims to discuss death of ISA As in the light of the Holy Quran.
Next verse in Surah Imran decreed that Allah SWT is best of the planner, to show that He SWT defeated the Schemes of the disbelievers.
وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ
(3:54
3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Therefore, Allah SWT has decreed in the Holy Quran that He SWT planned too. He SWT foiled the attempts of the Jews who wanted Prophet ISA As to be crucified on the cross. I quote another verse from the Quran, where Allah SWT decreed the same for the incident of migration of Prophet SAW.
وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ (8:30)
8:30 And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
So what did Allah SWT did in the case of Prophet Muhammad SAW? He SWT sent Gabriel to inform Prophet SAW, and ordered him SAW to migrate immediately. He SWT guarded Prophet Muhammad SAW with Angels, so no harm came to him SAW. When Prophet Muhammad SAW was on his way to Medina, the Kuffars followed him SAW; they sent parties to kill him SAW. When Prophet SAW was in a cave, the spider “Ankabut” with Allah SWT command spread the web on the entrance of the cave, giving the impression it was empty for a while, seeing that the Kuffars turned away from the entrance of the Cave. And life of Prophet Muhammad SAW was saved once again, by the Will and Planning of Allah SWT.
Allah SWT never revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW on either occasion that He SWT would “cause him to die” a natural death (as concocted by Mirza), and the enemies wouldn’t be able to kill him SAW.
Instead He SWT The Mighty and The Wise, protected him SAW. He SWT instead of giving assurances about his SAW life, gave glad tidings of a manifest victory over the enemies, in the Holy Quran, but never ever decreed that He SWT would “cause him SAW to die” a natural death.
What was the aim of the Jews, we may ask the Qadianis? It was to show to the world that Isa AS died an accursed death on the cross or stick (nauzobillah). What is the story prevalent in the world for last 2000 years? Jesus AS died on the cross and resurrected after 3 days to ascend to the heavens.
It is obvious, having him As crucified was the plan of the Jews not the Plan of Allah SWT. To have this weird notion, that Allah SWT let Isa As hang on the cross, pretend to die on it, and then migrate quietly to vanish in the thin air, is beyond comprehensions. In reality what have happened is that Jews still say, they killed him AS. On the other side, even Christians say the Jews killed him AS, but he resurrected after three days and become a god.
We know from the teachings of Holy Quran that most unacceptable thing to Allah SWT is that someone to declare share in His SWT divinity.
How could this be planning of Allah SWT, the Best of the Planners?
What did Jesus do then for another 95 years on earth according to Mirza? This is another point I will bring later on. In the light of the Holy Quran there was a big problem for Mirza, he has given a weird explanation of it in his book to cover his tracks. I will display that evidence later when I explore this point.
Allah SWT could have easily informed Isa As the scheming of the Jews, like he did to Prophet Muhammad SAW. He could have ordered him AS to migrate to some safer places, before his AS arrest. Exactly like he informed him SAW of Kuffar’s plans and ordered Prophet Muhammad SAW to migrate.
If the only purpose of Allah SWT was to inform Jesus As that HE SWT would “cause him As to die” “a natural death”. Then surely, that would have been a better solution this way, the schemes of the Jews would have failed. They wouldn’t have found Jesus and he AS would have never been crucified for Jews to boost that they killed Isa AS.
It is obvious, Allah SWT planned differently; there was no point of pretence of death, when the opponents were able to achieve the purpose. This is the point of view all over the world that Jesus died on the cross. The difference is Jews say they killed him As. Christians say he As was killed by the Jews but he resurrected after three days, because he As was divine.
Except off course Muslims who rightly say, that he As was never put on the cross but Allah SWT has exalted him AS to Himself. This is the consensus opinion of the Muslims. Only difference is in the applications of how Allah SWT exalted him SA to Himself.
That’s lead to another lie of Mirza vis-à-vis use of word “Wama Salabhu” in the Holy Quran. I will come to it. Inshallah
I am in the process of writings some articles, these points would be covered in those articles. There is no point of me producing Quranic evidence in this debate, when Mr. Popat does not provide any evidence from the Holy Quran; instead he is reduced to produce heresies after heresies against Holy Quran, Word of Allah SWT, in the foot step of Mirza, the liar of Qadian.
Mr. Popat is only capable to produce cut and paste job from the books and articles of his cult, intelligent discussions and debates using his own brain, and producing evidence from the holy Quran is beyond his capabilities. He had this discussion and produced plenty of quotes from his cult’s material, before I arrived on this forum and started to discuss it on this thread. But what happened now? He doesn’t find answers to my reasons in his pocket books, or in the writings of Mirza his Ka-Lips and cultists.
I always laughed, when these Qadianis write, I am coping stuff from somewhere, many allegations made on this forum too, very predictably.
I can assure all my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, my material is completely fresh, nobody has written articles like me against Mirza. There may be some quotations similar in other books or articles, but then we all have to quote from the books of Mirza to expose him. But my presentations, proofs and reasoning are completely different from others.
First I will write an article to expose Mirza and his sons what they have said about us Muslims; to highlight the fact that they consider us all Kaffirs. These hypocrites run to the moderators on false pretences of their religious figures. They consider Mirza the liar of Qadian, as the “true Muslim” and a Prophet, and all of us not believing in his lies as Kaffirs.
Each and every one of you should ask yourself, are these Qadianis truthful, when they say their religious personalities? Can they tell us what religion do they follow?
Their answer would be Islam, and that they are the true Muslims. You my brothers and sisters should ask yourself one simple question. Is Mirza the liar of Qadian, a religious personality of Islam?
I know the answer to this question, he is a heretic and a liar who has attributed white lies to Allah SWT all his life; he was not a believer. I challenge any Qadiani to have a debate with me anywhere anytime on this topic.
One of them wanted to arrange a debate with me in London, I say to them all, I am available, but I want the best of your Murabis Mullahs to come and debate with me, including Mirza Masroor. I will arrange live TV coverage and ask my Muslims brothers and sisters assistance to arrange for a large hall, with TV cameras made available from Pakistani Channels. Masroor, you should prove it to the world your knowledge of Islam and Quran, after all you paddle this lie that you were selected by Allah SWT (nauzobillah). My little right toe knows more Islam then you. I challenge you to come out and face me on any topic of your choice from the writings of Mirza. I must warn you, I do not debate on the set arguments you have practiced over the years. I will hit you so hard from different angles from the Holy Quran that you will forget your concoctions and lies in five minutes; this is a guarantee from me. Try you must fail you always.
You should also knows this fact, I have researched extensively and I know the origins of the ideas of Mirza, I know the sources from where he copied his ideas, his plagiarism, truth about his boosting of Arabic Language, I can provide proofs after proofs of his illiteracy and lies, his mistakes, his kuffar and shirk from his writings.
A liar who has even copied from the Arabic books written for children, used Lisan to select words, merge those words with sentences he plagiarized from different sources to declare this concoctions as Word from Allah SWT, is a heretic. On top of it, this liar claimed that he was taught Arabic by Allah SWT directly. One follower has displayed those proofs on another thread on this forum.
This liar has the audacity, to challenge people to write Arabic like him. To imitate and display the exact challenge contained in the Holy Quran. Only a person who is a non-believer on Allah SWT could do such deeds, who have absolutely no fear of Allah SWT in his heart. Mirza didn’t have any fear of Allah SWT in his heart, because he didn’t believe.
Allah SWT has decreed in the holy Quran. When light comes the darkness fails, because by nature falsehood is bound to perish. That light was brought to this world by our Prophet SAW and that truth is contained in the Holy Quran, the Uncreated Word of Allah SWT.
I can prove Mirza’s lies, in different ways, stop me if you can. May curse of Allah SWT be on all who associate white lies to the Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT. Ameen.