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Let’s just take one thing at a time, shall we? No talking about Jamaat e Ahmadiyya and only talk with Quranic knowledge that you possess. Things will be much easier to understand for me as well as for you.
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Stop showing your dishonesty again and again, this was your real purpose to start this thread;
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Lets have a very healthy and topic related discussion here. No question about jamaat e Ahmadiyya here. Though, this discussion may lead some people to think and understand about the claims that the founder of ahmadiyya jamaat made.
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*Therefore, Mr. Popat stop playing this game. I am also helping the readers of this debate, specially my Muslims brothers and sisters to understand the claims of the founder of Qadiani Jamat; Mirza Ghulam-e-Ahmed Qadiani. Let the readers think and understand his claims in the light of Holy Quran and his writings. *
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Death is by default. It is a fact of life. Whether it be for a normal human being or with prophets of Allah. If Allah didnt have that kind of conversation with Muhammad PBUH, or other prophets.. that He will 'cause thee to die' does not mean that they are all alive. Does it?
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Ahaan, so now you get it, thank you for admitting it, that’s where I wanted you to be. Could you please tell us, was not the death of Isa AS by default as well? Wasn’t it a natural thing to have occurred to him like any ordinary human being and like all the other Prophets?
Why then according to your understanding and claims of Mirza, Allah SWT had this conversation with Isa As at the time of crucifixion that He SWT will” cause him AS to die” (natural death according to you and Mirza)? Wouldn’t the death of Isa As have occurred naturally, like any other human being and other Prophets?
Doesn’t Allah SWT cause every one to die, if it is natural, by accident or murdered by someone’s hands? Or do you have any other creator in mind which causes death?
I am warning you Mr. Popat your arguments that because he As was persecuted by the Jews is already defeated. Every Prophet was persecuted by their nations, including our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW. But Allah SWT never reminded them of something, which would have occurred naturally. Why the exception in the case of Isa As? Unless your meaning is bogus, to say the least, and this conversation does not mean what Mirza claimed “Cause you to die” a natural death in the future. Because Quranic evidence suggest Allah SWT never ever used this phrase for any other Prophet of Allah SWT, not even to our Prophet SAW.
You got two choices; either to accept that in the Holy Quran Allah SWT made an exception in the case of Prophet Isa AS, compare to other prophets.
Or you tell us the Muslims where is the proof in the Holy Quran that Allah SWT gave same assurances to all the Prophets who were under persecution by their People?
There must have been something about to happen; something extra ordinary, just before the crucifixion that Allah SWT had this conversation with Isa As. There are only two possibilities, which I intend to show at the end, Inshallah.
I have already given examples from the Holy Quran for Prophet Muhammad SAW and believers, now I produced Quranic verse confirming that true Prophets of Allah SWT were slain by their nations. As you see, it is in the same Surah Imran. You said we should look at other verses in the Surah to see the correct meanings of 3:55. We are looking at one right now, but I will look in to the preceding and following verses of 3:55 in due course.
3:112 Overshadowed by ignominy are they wherever they may be, save [when they bind themselves again] in a bond with God and a bond with men; for they have earned the burden of God’s condemnation, and are overshadowed by humiliation: all this [has befallen them] because they persisted in denying the truth of God’s messages and in slaying the prophets against all right: all this, because they rebelled [against God], and persisted in transgressing the bounds of what is right.
This verse was quoted by me to answer the claims of Mirza that he should be accepted truthful because he passed the test of 23 years recipient of alleged Wahi, like Prophet Muhammad SAW (nauzobillah). Claim of Mirza which I have refuted comprehensively in my article.
Nevertheless, the Quranic Evidence is there that true prophets of Allah SWT were slain by their nations. Why Allah SWT didn’t give them this assurance? Their life was under threat wasn’t it? They actually were killed, according to the Quranic evidence. They would have died a natural death if they were not killed, wouldn’t they? So why they didn’t get the same assurance “cause you to die” from Allah SWT?
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We Muslims believe that Allah has sent down a book on Jesus (AS) known as injeel. The fact of the matter is, that book was also been completed in the lifetime of Jesus (AS). Why then do you think christians started to believe Jesus (AS) ascended to heavens? where did the teachings of the true injeel went?
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And what is your point? Didn’t Quran tell us what happened to the teachings of Injeel? Or you are completely ignorant to the teachings of the Holy Quran?
For second part I can only say ahaan once again, now it is dawning on you slowly and gradually, but you are so devoid of basic knowledge of the Holy Quran that you just don’t get it. Tell us then would the death of Jesus be mentioned in the Injeel he received? Or his ascension to heaven would have been mentioned in the Injeel he received? Is the death of Prophet Muhammad SAW mentioned in the Holy Quran?
And why you think Muslims believe that he ascended to heavens as well, but with one difference without being put on the cross at all. That’s why we are having this discussion, that’s where Mirza differed from the Muslims who believed Prophet ISA As has died. I will come to the concoctions of “natural death” your cult has introduced to the verse 3:55.
But at the moment, first you cross the hurdle of “cause you to die”. Same is the case for other verses on the death of Isa As in the Holy Quran, we will look at them in due course, I can promise you, you will not find any joy there either. As we Muslims can observe you have not answered one question I posed to you from the Holy Quran. I warned you, if you Qadianis think death of Isa AS is your strong point then you are mistaken, this is actually your weakest. Wait until I come to the writings of Mirza specially “Jesus in India” then the wisdom of Mirza would be out in the open.
Mr. Popat, keep asking really smart (in your mind), but self defeating questions. I know it is not your fault, you are not finding the answers to my questions in 80+ books of Mirza and in your Jamat’s resources.
I produce another clear example of your smart mind playing tricks with you. It is true without real knowledge and understanding one is lost completely, no matter how smart they think they are, similar was the case with Mirza, as it with you.
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the conversation took place was so that there wont be anymore misconception of Jesus (AS)'s death. When Christians were thinking that He went up in heavens and jews were thinking that they killed him, Allah said to him that he'll cause him to die a natural death.
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My Muslim Brother and Sisters, please observe the intelligence of Mr. Popat with your own eyes. I warned him that answer to my questions and my approach he wouldn’t find in his cult’s literature. But he thought I was boasting. Now he is reduced to making heretical and self defeating statements one after another. Above is a glaring example of it. I will explain it to you, but before I want some clarifications from him.
Mr. Popat what are you actually saying here?
Christians were thinking he AS ascended to heaven and Jews were thinking they killed him, after the crucifixion, isn’t?
Are you saying therefore, this conversation took places after the crucifixion and after Isa As escaping the crucifixion according to Mirza?
Didn’t you earlier say this conversation took place because he AS was given hard time and was persecuted by the Jews?
He should always remember that he wanted to have this discussion on the evidence from the Holy Quran. This is going to hurt him and his Jamat so badly, that he has absolutely no idea. This is just a start. I will destroy every single concoction Mirza had on the issue of death of Isa As, Inshallah.
Mr. Popat has already put this argument dead in the water, when he said, when he AS was persecuted by the Jews. I have already asked him was he As persecuted by the Jews in Kashmir too, for which we didn’t get any answers. I suggest he should pause and think, long and hard, where I am taking him. But it does not matter what he tries, he will end up there, there is no way out for him.
Not to mentioned he has performed such a huge own goal; he has ruined it for himself and for Mirza completely now by stating what is quoted above. This was the problem Mirza faced. He realized he can be caught on this point, therefore, he has written a marvelously mischievous but self defeating paragraph in his book. I will disclose that information too at appropriate time, provided Mr. Popat can last that long.
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Why hasnt this conversation took place with Muhammad PBUH? for the reason that if He (SAW) nauzubillah gets killed by His opponents , there wont be any misconceptions amongst anyone. When he SAW gets killed, he is killed. There really is no brainer here. Quran was completed in His(SAW)'s lifetime, and hence if such an event with Muhammad (SAW) (of being killed) was to occur, Allah would have said that in Quran. The fact that it did not, means natural death will get to him.
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Oh man, you are making me laugh now, where is your brain, when you write this kind of paragraphs? There would have been no misconceptions amongst anyone, if Isa As was crucified? Why would there be? He would have been crucified exactly like you said. If he As is crucified, he is crucified. What is the difference if one gets killed in the War or one gets crucified? Absolutely none; both have departed from this earth.
Second part of your paragraph is even more hilarious. How would have Allah SWT said it in the Quran if Prophet Muhammad SAW were to be killed by his enemies? Wasn’t he SAW the recipient of Quranic revelations?
The fact that ISA As didn’t get crucified and live long afterwards according to Mirza and according to your contentions, then as you said it would have means natural death, then why Allah SWT had that conversation with ISA AS at the time of crucifixion? There should have been no need for it at all.
The same arguments you used for Prophet SAW, can be used for Isa As, according to Mirza he didn’t die, so why mention it in the Holy Quran? It would have meant natural death will get him, exactly like you said about Prophet Muhammad SAW in above paragraph quoted. We will come to the question again and again, then why is it mentioned in the Holy Quran?
Allah SWT could have mentioned that in the Injeel? Like you wrote that if Prophet Muhammad SAW has been killed He SWT could have mentioned it in the Holy Quran, and that’s it, end of the matter. But who received the Injeel, if he was killed, or crucified, how Allah SWT could have mentioned this in Injeel?
It didn’t happened like this; therefore, you are on square one. Why did Allah SWT said to Jesus AS “I will cause you to die”. When we find no such evidence of these words in the Holy Quran for any other prophets, who faced the same threats and persecutions like Isa AS, some of them survived and lived a long life and died naturally. Some of them were killed as Quranic evidence proves, but none of them had this assurance given to them, no matter if they escaped the death from their people or were killed by their people. But none of them had this assurance given to them, why?
Unless he As was never given the assurance that he will die of natural causes. This insertion of natural death or death of natural causes is a Qadianis invention any way, which we will discuss at the right time. At the moment you need to get out of the hole first and answer questions from the Holy Quran.
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If you are the one in support of His (AS)'s ascension to heavens , why do you not enlighten me as well as your 'muslim brother and sisters' when the conversation took place and why it didnt take place with Muhammad PBUH.
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Off course, I am working on this thread, so my Muslim brothers and sisters finds the real meanings of this verse in the context of understanding and finding out why you and Mirza are wrong. I told you at the start, there are some Muslims who believed from the start that Isa As has died. Some still do, like ASAD whose translation I quoted, or people like Ghamdi. But none of them believed in Jesus in India non-sense, nor any of them take the dishonest meaning used by your Jamat. Asad has done probably best meaning of “cause you to die” in a sense he is from modern school, secondly, he was a converted Jew so he was well aware of their history. His meanings and yours are oceans apart. I will deal with it inshallah at the end.
Why it didn’t took place with Prophet Muhammad SAW is very obvious, it is also very obvious that the meaning you take is bogus. That’s why the occasion when this conversation took place is vitally important, in that aspect ASAD meaning of this verse makes perfect sense, correct or not, but he does not have any bogus meanings inserted nor did he took flight of the fancy like Mirza.
You should read the masterpiece of Mirza “Jesus in India” with open eyes it would become very clear to you, if you have any brain and know how to use it. It is as clear as day. But then those people whose eyes and ears are sealed by Allah SWT can not see, or hear the truth.
I know you can not answer the questions asked from you, I will move on, but after you give clarifications I asked you, in response to one of your quotes.