Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

[Mr.Popat]

@psyah

Peace Mr. Popat

Rather natural law of Allah has rules that cannot be compromised unless Allah (SWT) grants special permission for them to be so, such is the discussion of miracle and karama. This is why I have said in other discussions that to believe in miracle is an article of our faith.

Peace psyah,

I totally believe in miracles. They have happened to prophets. Some of the miracles have been mentioned in Quran which one cannot deny. However, Jesus AS’s ascension to heaven is no where mentioned in Quran.

@psyah

Allah (SWT) is not contained in space, nor is it right to say He is everywhere.
However, we refer to the upward direction as a context for a location, because that is how Allah (SWT) has refered to Himself being over the 'Arsh. This is an 'aqeedah element also. The 4th heaven is upward from the world, but I do not know where you have got the reference for 4th heaven.

we as humans are limited.. Allah is unlimited, He is omnipresent. Allah says where ever you direct yourself, you’ll find him. Allah says He is closer to you than your jugular vein.. (metaphorically, this is to mean that he is aware of every single thing we do).. First know the simt of Allah, and for that you’re gonna have to read Quran.

@psyah

Please let me discuss your verses first then we can move on, or else you will try to hang me contradicting the Qur’an with the verses you have provided. So I first want to show you that your interpretation of your own provided evidence is either wrong or classically interpreted with any option which is valid within the constrains of the language and in context to hadith.

Do you want me to provide you with the translation from other well known Quranic translators ?

@psyah

This is wrong the verse never says “He no longer eats food” this is your interpretation and it is wrong. This is in fact where the Arabic lesson comes in.

Please read the ayaah again. It says both of them used to eat food. Here is the full ayaah again , and im highlighting the things which im trying to emphasis on more..

5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengerslikeunto himhad indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

In this verse, Allah is talking about both, Mary AS and Jesus AS. When it says His mother WAS a truthful woman, it makes it clear that shes dead, however, read what’s after it.. “they both used to” now, Allah joined Jesus AS with His mother whose dead. How can you then say that it is possible for one of them to still be eating while other must be dead? Verse couldnt have explained in any other clear manner of Him AS being dead. He along with his mother used to eat. When someone still does something, no language would say they used to.. it will be the opposite.. it is that ’ they both eat food’.. but in that verse, we see that they USED to eat food.

@psyah

There is no point rationalising with psuedo-science the mechanics of survival in space, I could just as easily introduce the concept of time experience and how it may appear to Isa (AS) that only a day has passed when centuries have passed on Earth, but instead of the trouble of doing that let’s just say that … Allah (SWT) has to power to make this possible.** The principle of miracle. Read above**.

You do realize that whatever you are talking thus far is all based on your own assumptions right?.. With no evidence from Quran, after bring the concept of him being asleep, which i explained is false, you now are going to introduce the concept of time experience? You are welcome to do so, if its in Quran and if thats the only thing left for you to prove your beliefs from Quran. I am not denying the pink highlighted part. However, at the last this is what you had to say? I’m disappointed. I thought you could have brought something better. You believe His ascension towards Heavens… why are you having hard time proving from Quran if this has actually happened? But to say , Allah has the power to make this possible only proves that whatever has been told to you, you have bought into it , without actually giving time to search for yourself. Discard this belief brother. You will never be able to explain your this belief based on Quran.

@psyah

Noted: We’ll leave that for another time then. I did say that it was another discussion

It was you who brought this up. I only explained why thinking that he must be asleep is not only false from Quran but also makes one ask so many questions. It only contradicts with your very own beliefs as well. Being asleep is what you brought and hence it is part of the discussion.. please answer the question i asked about him being asleep. Do not run away from what you said. Him being asleep was one thing your said to support ur argument.. you now need to explain it properly. It indeed is related to the topic. Also, to support your belief, you said this as well..

**1) He not being on the Earth is not bound by the rules of the Earth, note, the verse about eating is linked with walking the streets which are on Earth. **

I asked you questions about it. You need to answer. I have all the time in the world. Him being not on earth will not make him anyone else other than Human being. How can you say he is not bound to the earth rules of hunger,walking etc ? You never explained.

@psyah

Okay so here is the crux of your argument …

This is simply not true. Please read Surah 2 Verse 259 … as part of your belief it is important that you temper it against other parts to maintain consistency.

The prophet Uzair (AS) slept for hundred years - that breaks the natural law, the food was still piping hot for hundred years, that breaks the natural law, the donkey’s bones were a sign that he was asleep for a hundred years, then before his (AS) eye’s the meat and skin was clothed on the carcass and before him stood his donkey - that breaks the natural law.

259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: “Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?” but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: “How long didst thou tarry (thus)?” He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: “Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh.” When this was shown clearly to him, he said: “I know that Allah hath power over all things.”

Besides it never says “he no longer eats food” that is your grammatical mistake that I shall explain inshaAllah.

It is in Quran and I believe in Quran with all my heart. When this happened, Allah explained. However , i wonder why not in case of Jesus AS?.. the event was so huge that it must be in Quran as well. There is no mention of Him AS taken alive to heavens. Story of Jesus AS in heaven alive is a cooked up story. I’m waiting for you to deal with all the ayaah’s i presented earlier and will be presenting in the future , and wait for the time when you will be presenting ayaahs from Quran supporting your belief of Him being alive. I so wait for that day.

@psyah

Yes that is true people do in fact use different meanings of the Qur’an to support their view. To prove that the Qur’an can create this spectrum of opinions is based on two parts of the Qur’an:

a) One part is when it informs us that by the Signs of Allah (SWT) He can give guidance and lead people astray

b) The parts where it states there are direct and metaphoric verses.

The only way we can avoid coming to the wrong meaning is to follow the guide of the hadith, the consensus of scholars who have had their lineage based on an unbroken chain to the prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Ok doke. You do admit now that there are metaphoric verses in Quran as well. Now, what gives you the right to translate the verse 4:157-158 as him being ascended bodily? you said you need to take context into account.. how did u take context into account on this verse and thought of bodily ascension ?

@psyah

According to ASWJ the third manner in which a soul can be taken is by body and soul. It has happened in the case of mi’raaj, it has happened with prophet Idris (AS) also … The Story of Prophet Idris for an informal reference to the story.

Miraj was spiritual rather physical, and i can prove you that as well, however this thread is not about miraj but Jesus AS ascension to heaven. Prophet Idris AS was taken to heaven bodily too? Can you provide me with the verse.. Just want to see what word is being used in that verse. Thank you.

@psyah

No … this is where the Arabic lesson comes in inshaAllah.

Okay in Arabic there are three forms of pronouns, the singular, the dual and the plural.

The verse which quotes Isa (AS) and Maryam (AS) USED TO eat food says so in the dual form.

You concluded earlier that if they BOTH USED TO eat then He is no longer eating. This is where you have failed grammatically speaking, well at least you are missing the full meaning.

Yes, it can indeed mean that he is no longer eating, but it could also mean that Maryam (AS) is no longer eating and he (AS) is still eating. Here is why:

Let’s say you have A and B who eat, when you say THEY BOTH USED TO EAT the dual form in Arabic is employed and to break the dual form either A stops eating, or B stops eating or they both stop eating. Even if one of them stops eating then the dual is broken, because it follows they cannot BOTH be eating if one of them has stopped.

Therefore, although your meaning is linguistically valid it is not true as a proof that Isa (AS) is dead because grammatically there is still an option that Maryam (AS) has died and therefore stopped eating, but Isa (AS) is alive and therefore could still be eating. If I remember correctly I heard on one occassion that it is a belief that Isa (AS) is kept nourished until a point of his return.

If you do not understand what I mean about this Arabic construction think of dual nouns in English.

If I say I used to dangle my FEET in the pool until I had one foot amputated thereafter I could only dangle a FOOT in pool. One would say that I USED TO dangle my FEET, but I can no longer do this it could mean I have lost both my feet but it could also mean that I have lost only one foot and therefore I cannot use the statement I used to dangle my feet as proof that both my feet are affected.

Make no sense whatsoever. When it is said they both USED to eat .. i see no reason to believe that one of them is dead and one of them is still eating. Provided in the same verse, it says Mary was a truthful woman. I only understood this verse the way its written. There is really no reason why one need to actually start giving the arabic lesson which makes no sense whatsoever. Totally senseless.

You failed yet again to prove it wrong. Shall i move on to something else now? I asked ..

want this topic to turn slightly different way, hence i’d ask u to answer me if He is still aging at this point in time?.. Will He AS be born again or not?.. You cannot say sleeping made him stop his age. So, where ever he may be..is he aging? Thank you.

Thanks.