Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

[psyah]

@Mr.Popat

Ok. So natural law of Allah does not permit any mortal to be taken up alive.

Peace Mr. Popat

Rather natural law of Allah has rules that cannot be compromised unless Allah (SWT) grants special permission for them to be so, such is the discussion of miracle and karama. This is why I have said in other discussions that to believe in miracle is an article of our faith.

@Mr.Popat

Please explain your stance and let me know where Allah is? If He is everywhere.. why then take him to 4th heaven?

Allah (SWT) is not contained in space, nor is it right to say He is everywhere.
However, we refer to the upward direction as a context for a location, because that is how Allah (SWT) has refered to Himself being over the 'Arsh. This is an 'aqeedah element also. The 4th heaven is upward from the world, but I do not know where you have got the reference for 4th heaven.

@Mr.Popat

Which close inspection of Quranic ayaat are you referring to brother? Ahadith talking about Isa AS’s return is actually referring to Messiah of Muhammadi SAW shariyah. I’ve been asking for sometime now, to provide me with the Quranic ayaah to which you have inspected closely and came to the conclusion of Him being still alive.

Please let me discuss your verses first then we can move on, or else you will try to hang me contradicting the Qur’an with the verses you have provided. So I first want to show you that your interpretation of your own provided evidence is either wrong or classically interpreted with any option which is valid within the constrains of the language and in context to hadith.

@Mr.Popat

Perhaps you never said He no longer eats food, but the verse I quoted does say He no longer eats food ( Used to )..

This is wrong the verse never says “He no longer eats food” this is your interpretation and it is wrong. This is in fact where the Arabic lesson comes in.

@Mr.Popat

1. He not being on the Earth does not mean He AS no longer is a human being. You will still need oxygen to breathe if you were to go in space. Does not mean if you are out of the Earth , you no longer needs to eat, take rest, do all the normal stuff a regular person does..

There is no point rationalising with psuedo-science the mechanics of survival in space, I could just as easily introduce the concept of time experience and how it may appear to Isa (AS) that only a day has passed when centuries have passed on Earth, but instead of the trouble of doing that let’s just say that … Allah (SWT) has to power to make this possible. The principle of miracle. Read above.

@Mr.Popat

2. Point to be noted sir. Without any evidence, you bring a whole new concept of Him being asleep. I cannot remember the exact verse number from Quran , perhaps if you know, you could help posting it here..( please do, this took me half an hour to search , but still couldnt find ).. it reads something like this : Allah takes people soul only on two occasions .. one when they’re dead and one when they’re put to sleep, and He sends their soul back to their body until an appointed time…(perhaps the translation that i did may not be right, and you’re welcome to correct me and also provide me with the reference of this ayaah , will appreciate it… ).. Also, being asleep is again an assumption made by you. Being in asleep state will not required food, however for how long?.. You are forgetting , He AS was a human being..and a messenger, nothing else. Are you saying that during sleep , someone cannot die?.. No assumptions please.. and no exceptions either in case of isa AS. During sleep, one’s life span is getting increased , is it not?.. On one hand you say He AS will come back as he was taken up. On other hand you say He AS is sleeping?.. does sleeping not make one age at all?

Noted: We’ll leave that for another time then. I did say that it was another discussion.

Okay so here is the crux of your argument …

@Mr.Popat

My explanation to what it means when it says he no longer eats food. >> he AS is dead. Only dead people dont eat. Simple and straightforward and no brainer.

This is simply not true. Please read Surah 2 Verse 259 … as part of your belief it is important that you temper it against other parts to maintain consistency.

The prophet Uzair (AS) slept for hundred years - that breaks the natural law, the food was still piping hot for hundred years, that breaks the natural law, the donkey’s bones were a sign that he was asleep for a hundred years, then before his (AS) eye’s the meat and skin was clothed on the carcass and before him stood his donkey - that breaks the natural law.

259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: “Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?” but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: “How long didst thou tarry (thus)?” He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: “Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh.” When this was shown clearly to him, he said: “I know that Allah hath power over all things.”

Besides it never says “he no longer eats food” that is your grammatical mistake that I shall explain inshaAllah.

@Mr.Popat

ok context needs to be taken in to account. It is not wise to translate one word differently for one verse but differently for another. If you take exception to this, then there are many verses using the word mutavafika, Qad khalat, rafa’a etc. You only translate them to your own likings without taking in to account the same word used in other places in Quran… if context needs to be taken in to account then that means, there are more than 2 meanings to the same words. If thats true then everyone will have their own version of Quran. Everyone is free to use any translation of the word they like..

Looking forward to your arabic lesson. Dont let it contradict Quran.

Yes that is true people do in fact use different meanings of the Qur’an to support their view. To prove that the Qur’an can create this spectrum of opinions is based on two parts of the Qur’an:

a) One part is when it informs us that by the Signs of Allah (SWT) He can give guidance and lead people astray

b) The parts where it states there are direct and metaphoric verses.

The only way we can avoid coming to the wrong meaning is to follow the guide of the hadith, the consensus of scholars who have had their lineage based on an unbroken chain to the prophet Muhammad (SAW).

@Mr.Popat

Peace Psyah,

Here is the verse I was talking about above. He takes soul on two occasions
1)death
2)sleep

2>> taking of soul in asleep state is temporary you will say. However, in both cases, the body is on Earth, while the soul departs (in case of death, permanent..and in case of sleeping, temporarily.).. Wise man wouldnt call it sleeping for 2000 years but call it death. Note that there is no other way of Allah taking souls than those two ways.. It is hence not to be believed that He AS might be sleeping, but much more reasonable to say He AS is dead.

According to ASWJ the third manner in which a soul can be taken is by body and soul. It has happened in the case of mi’raaj, it has happened with prophet Idris (AS) also … The Story of Prophet Idris for an informal reference to the story.

@Mr.Popat

End of discussion on this verse. You failed to give me a reasonable answer. Shall I move on now? want this topic to turn slightly different way, hence i’d ask u to answer me if He is still aging at this point in time?.. Will He AS be born again or not?.. You cannot say sleeping made him stop his age. So, where ever he may be..is he aging? Thank you.

No … this is where the Arabic lesson comes in inshaAllah.

Okay in Arabic there are three forms of pronouns, the singular, the dual and the plural.

The verse which quotes Isa (AS) and Maryam (AS) USED TO eat food says so in the dual form.

You concluded earlier that if they BOTH USED TO eat then He is no longer eating. This is where you have failed grammatically speaking, well at least you are missing the full meaning.

Yes, it can indeed mean that he is no longer eating, but it could also mean that Maryam (AS) is no longer eating and he (AS) is still eating. Here is why:

Let’s say you have A and B who eat, when you say THEY BOTH USED TO EAT the dual form in Arabic is employed and to break the dual form either A stops eating, or B stops eating or they both stop eating. Even if one of them stops eating then the dual is broken, because it follows they cannot BOTH be eating if one of them has stopped.

Therefore, although your meaning is linguistically valid it is not true as a proof that Isa (AS) is dead because grammatically there is still an option that Maryam (AS) has died and therefore stopped eating, but Isa (AS) is alive and therefore could still be eating. If I remember correctly I heard on one occassion that it is a belief that Isa (AS) is kept nourished until a point of his return.

If you do not understand what I mean about this Arabic construction think of dual nouns in English.

If I say I used to dangle my FEET in the pool until I had one foot amputated thereafter I could only dangle a FOOT in pool. One would say that I USED TO dangle my FEET, but I can no longer do this it could mean I have lost both my feet but it could also mean that I have lost only one foot and therefore I cannot use the statement I used to dangle my feet as proof that both my feet are affected.