Is wife beating against the quran?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Is wife beating against the quran?

Before I answer this question, here is the verse that raises the issue of wife beating; **
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004.034 * YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).***

004.035* *YUSUFALI: If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

There are a few things that I need to clarify before the answer makes any sense. As explained elsewhere.
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1)Islam is founded on principles of social justice and fair play.
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**2)Islamic laws are for benefit of humanity and are there to protect people from themselves and others eg suicide is as unlawful as killing anyone else. The quran is clear that allah only made such things and actions unlawful as could prove more harmful than good. The quran also clear as to lawful is all that which has more benefits than harm. It is because things or actions are not free of their good or bad side effects or nock on effects. **
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3)Islam does not allow people to take laws in their own hands because that will destroy law and order in the society.
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**4)When laws and order is an issue then we are talking about safety of individuals and society as well as justice, crime detection rate, true conviction rate, false accusation rate, false conviction rate, standard of evidence, support for victims etc etc. We need to ensure that criminals do not walking away free and that falsely accused do not suffer injustice as far as it is humanly possible. One can see how difficult this balancing act really is.
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Over all the idea is to keep crime rate as low as possible so that society can live with it, because crime free state is not possible. Not only because of difficulty in formation of laws because laws need to be well thought out but also in implementation of those laws and their enforcement etc. In other words human error and neglect is impossible to rule out at various stages of the process.

**Coming to the concerned verses, by now it should be very clear that the verses of the quran are mistranslated and misinterpreted because the people involved in their translations etc may not have full grasp of how things work in real world.  The quran is clear that no one has any authority over anyone else other than what is needed for organisational purposes. Islamic concept of government is not about controlling people but to organise people to help them live peacefully with help of each other and the society.

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The other point to remember is that all orders in the quran are based on reasons ie situations and circumstances as they suit time and place or occasions. Therefore responsibility some times is with men and some times with women ie whoever suits the situation or circumstances best. In other words applications of laws change with change of situations. So men are given authority under some situations and women under other situations ie best person for the job. If a woman is better able to do a job then she is to do it and if man is better at it then man has to do it. No matter what one or the other must do it otherwise the job will remain undone.

The next point is meanings of the words used in the quran. For example, word daraba has many different meanings eg beat, hit, strike, multiply, separate, leave, let go, push away, trial, test, similar etc etc.

**The next thing we need to look at is context of the verses in the quran eg look at verses like 4/6,19 etc. In the quran we are told that marriage is not a child’s play rather people who want to get married must be grown up both biologically as well as psychologically and be in full agreement ie they must be compatible. Now if marriage was a sensible well thought out step to begin with then it is unlikely that it will end up in disrepute and divorce. However if marriage does fall through due to unforeseen situations and circumstances then people have two chances for divorce and getting back together again. However, if they fail the third time then divorce is final ie the couple can longer marry each again except that after the marriage if the woman becomes divorced again under normal situation and circumstances then the first man can marry her again if that is what she also wants. **

**Now let us look at these verses. It is told that first step is mutual talk between husband and wife. If it works the situation is sorted so that is the end of the matter. If first step fails then next step is to sleep on separate beds ie give the anger time to die down. If it works then again the problem is solved and no further action is needed. However if the second step fails then it is time for the third step.
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**The question is what is third step? According to most translators and the interpreters of the quran it is for husband to start beating up the wife till she submits and if she does then that is the end of problem. How sad that scholars made this serious accusation against the quran? It is because in the next verse we are told that people from both families must get involved to help them get back together again. This point, with commandment for not taking law into one’s own hand and the law that one must be just and fair etc make it very clear that the quran is not ordering man to beat up his wife. It is just giving another suggestion and after that telling families and relatives of the parties to get involved in getting them back together again. **
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The quran is telling man and wife to make their separation public as a third step ie send the wife back to her parents or relatives etc. This step can also help man and wife get back together again because people will start talking about them. When this separation becomes known to other may be other will want to marry these people so if these two want to get back then they must or they could lose the chance if man or wife marries some one else. The relative also become concerned so they get involved as a forth and final say. If this solves the problem fine otherwise legal steps become necessary towards reconciliation, or separation or divorce.
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As we can see the translations are based on the way the society at the time used to deal with situations like this rather than understanding and following the quran.
**The wife beating, the child abuse, the force marriage, the stoning to death etc etc are part of societies that had or have master slave mentality. The idea is to keep powerless and weak people frighten and terrorised by the people in authority. Even today authoritarian governments use the very same idea of law ie they form laws to break and control their people and the result is backward countries and human suffering at a massive scale.
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**So people who attack islam, attack it because they know if people understood islam it is not a good news for them because islam opposes master slave relationships between people. It is also possible that the quran has been deliberately mistranslated so that it suits the paymasters of such so called religious scholars. It is a way of keeping people side tracked from the objectivity by keeping them ignorant of the real objective of the quran so that people fight over aimless things and remain divided so that they could enslave them one by one. Because once one is put on the wrong path and told it is the right path then it takes much more effort to get back to the right path and so even very sincere people remain ignorant of the purpose of the message. **

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

there is no need to add 4 long paragraphs trying to explain how islam ALLOWS a man to HIT his wife.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

@ mughal...
I just have one question for u...
before asking.. I want to clarify that I have no anterior motive or trying to "enslave" people... I just want to know because I am curious

u wrote:
In the quran we are told that marriage is not a child’s play rather people who want to get married must be grown up both biologically as well as psychologically and be in full agreement ie they must be compatible.

My question: Was 6 or 9 year old Ayesha both "biologically and psychologically" capable of being married and grown up(not really sure exactly how old she was when she got married... but i know it was either 6yrs or 9)??? If not, then was the prophet not following the Quran? Can a child of that age be compatible with a much older person?

I am sorry. I do not know much. thts y i was just asking... plz do not take it the wrong way.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

I would never hit my wife, ever!

“You can beat a dog or horse but not a woman you loved”

If your angry with your woman on a trivial matter go vent your anger on some unfortunate wall or something… :faris:

If she has done something evil then divorce her, no need to hit her.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you dear MissTY for the participation, but if I may ask, did you read my explanation?

regards and all the best

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you mizsani, please read my explanations dear as to how to understand the quran and then if any hadith is relevant then please use it by all means.

The quran does not allow child marriage, so how could one expect that the person like the prophet would go against what god told him?

I think it is not right for anyone to leave priincples of islam aside and then claim that prophet did this or that. The principles I stated are not mine but have been there always and are accepted by all muslims scholars unanimously. So if anyone want to go after hearsay and weak evidences that is their business.

I personally reject such reports as tell us that prophet married a child, they make absolutely no sense because he gave his life for good of humanity. Also if the prophet did things against what he was preaching then people ought raise objections, do you not think so?

The quran looked at properly proves that the prophet was a man of great character and not a paedophile. Those who try to prove otherwise may well have tried to use his name in order to justify their own tendencies. Not all ahadith are sahee ahadith as I ahve explained already.

In islam that was preached by the prophet, child mariage is no marriage at all, it is simply child slavery and child abuse of which prophet was free.

regards and all the best.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Did our Prophet(SAW) ever hit/strike a woman or a child or a slave? No.

And the stories abour Aisha(ra) being 6 or 9 at the time of marriage are false.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

He’s not saying that. :smack:

Please read before commenting on posts.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Dear hareem, please note that the quran says in many verses that the prophet has not done anything wrong ever intentionally.

3/31, 4/59, 65, 33/21 or 68/2 these like verses guaranty that the prophet did not wrong otherwise it would be wrong for allah to tell anyone to follow a devious character.

It will be helpful if people read my posts to see what is islam all about.

As for ignorant mullahs and their followers who want to justify their own ideas in the name of god and prophet that is up to them to answer for. The quran is very clear and leaves us in no doubt that the prophet was a great man.

regards and all the best.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Mughal 1 Your great :salute:

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

so are all these islamic sources wrong?

A’isha was Abu Bakr’s daughter. Her mother was named Umm Ruman according to al-Tabari vol.9 p.129.
She married Mohammed when she was (six) 6 years old, went to his house when (nine) 9. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65; Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 no.3309,3310,3311 p.715,716

This marriage is mentioned in many places, including Sahih Muslim vol.1 book 4 no.1694 p.372; Abu Dawud vol.1 no.1176 p.305; vol.1 no.1268 p.335; vol.1 no.1330 p.350; Abu Dawud vol.1 no.1336 p.351; vol.1 no.1419 p.373; vol.2 no.2382 p.654.

‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.130,131

A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1876 p.133

A’isha was seven years old when she married, nine years old when she lived with Mohammed, and 18 years old when he died. (not Sahih) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 no.1877 p.134

A rationale trying to explain why Mohammed married such a young girl is given in Sahih Muslim vol.2 footnote 1859 p.715. It says that "it was some exceptional circumstances that Hadrat ‘A’isha was married to the Prophet… The second point to be noted is that Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions." They also mention support from the disreputable Kinsey report on Sexual Behaviour in the Human Female.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

here are a few more quotes and references...

1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.

1a. "Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

1b. The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.

1c. "Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65

1d. Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119

1e. "Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158.

2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.

This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.

2a. "(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716

2b. "(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."

(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.

2c. "(5981) ’A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

2d. (5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording." Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299

3. Sunan Abu Dawud 817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.

3a. "(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569

3b. "(4913) ‘A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373

3c. "(4915) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374

3d. (5916) [typo, really 4916] The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Abu Usamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: ‘With good fortune.’ She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4916 p.1374

3e. (4917) ‘A’ishah said: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were [sp] up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4917 p.1374

3f. (4918) The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Hisham b. ‘Urwah through a different chain of narrators. This version adds: I was swinging and I had my friends. They brought me to a house ; there were some women of the Ansar (Helpers). They said : With good luck and blessing. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4918 p.1374

3g. (4919) ‘A’ishah said : We came to Medina and stayed with Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. She said : I swear by Allah, I was swinging between two date-palms. Then my mother came, and made me come down; and I had my hair up to the ears. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915-4919 p.1374.

4. Tirmidhi 825-892 A.D. 209-279 A.H.

"..Ahmad and Is'haq said that if a female orphan reaches nine years old and was wed with her consent, then the marriage is permissible and she will have no choice when she matures. The two relied on a hadith by Ai'sha stating that the prophet peace be upon him had sexual relations with her when she was nine. Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman" Tirmidhi said: A good hadith. (Tirmidhi, "Marriage according to Allah's apostle", #1027)

5. Sunan Nas’ai 830-915 A.D. 215-303 A.H.

5a. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)

5b. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

5c. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)

5d. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)

5e. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.

"When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)

Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.

6. Ibn-i-Majah 824-886/887 A.D. 273 A.H.

6a. A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.133

6b. A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1877 p.134.

  1. The Historian ibn Ishaq - died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.

7a. "Yahya b. Abbad b. Abdullah b. al-Zubayr from his father told me that he heard Aisha say: "The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: I had wronged none in regard to him. It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms.""
(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.

  1. The Historian al-Tabari - died 923 A.D.

8a. ‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 (year A.H. 10) p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.

8b. ‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 (year A.H. 1) p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.

8c. Aisha died in June-July 678 A.D. (A.H. 58) at the age of 66. That would make her born in 610 A.D.. al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173. (al-Tabari wrote 38 volumes of history, plus a 39th volume called Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors.)

X 8d. On the other hand, al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period." (Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, (Account of Luhrasb) p.50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 (A.H 13) p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.

p.s. i found this online

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

^There are some ahadith that suggest that Aisha(ra) was either 15 or 19 at the age of her marriage and also about the narrators Hisham and Urwa.

Here is a detailed reply from Sunnipath by Shaykh Jibril Haddad.

  • Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).

  • Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

  • Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

  • Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

  • Our liege-lord Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter ofAli and Fatima at a similar age per Abd al-Razzaq, IbnAbd al-Barr and others.

  • And our Mother Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mutim before her father dropped that option when he received word from the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased with them.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable, but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are: Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabiin that reported it directly fromA'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas.

Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from Urwa, fromA'isha; so does Abd Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabii Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sad's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sad ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been reported

Nor by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabiin narrators, Sufyan ibnUyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.

Nor was this hadith reported only by Urwa but also byAbd al-Malik ibn Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibnAbd al-Rahman ibn Awf, Yahya ibnAbd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu Ubayda (Amir ibn Abd Allah ibn Masud) and others of the Tabii Imams directly fromA'isha.

This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from A'isha by over eleven authorities among the Tabiin, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Masud nor other major Successors that reported it from other thanA'isha, such as Qatada!

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol11, pg 48 - 51)

Rather, Yaqub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Yaqub does not exactly endorse that criticism.

As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.

Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My father, from A'isha? (abian `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".

Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything

from his father except what he had heard directly from him.

Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had heard directly from him".

In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn Urwa are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of AbuUmar al-Nakhai who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shuba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham!

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-Itidal (4:301 #9233) states: "Hisham ibnUrwa, one of the eminent personalities. A Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shuba, and Waki, and the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijra. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijra.

Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.

Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.

According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn Urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibnUrwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

A two year old is not an infant. A two year old is able to run around, which is what jariya means. As for "the comments of the experts" they concur on 6 or 7 as the age of marriage and 9 as the age of cohabitation.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, A'isha did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an eleven-year oldA'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was ten years older than Ayesha.

Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she was ten years older than A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar Alam al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here.

It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha, if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nuaym al-Asbahani that "Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age whatsoever.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr, reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha was born in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sad and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each,A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab.

Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.

This shows that Ayesha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

Rather, Ibn Hisham lists A'isha among "those that accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced Islam beforeUmar (year 6) although she was born the previous year (year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mutam -- with whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha in his house as his son's wife. Mutam refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra).

Not at all, there is no mention of emigration in Tabari's account of Abu Bakr's discussion with Mutim. Nor did he ever ask him to takeA'isha because there had been only some preliminary talk, not a formal arrangement. Umm Ruman, Abu Bakr's wife, reportedly said: "By Allah, no promise had been given on our part at all!" Rather, al-Tabari said that when news of the Prophet's interest in A'isha came, he went to see Mutim. Then Mut`im's wife manifested her fear that her son would become Muslim if he married into Abu Bakr's family. Abu Bakr then left them and gave his assent to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace.

Now, if Ayesha was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Your assumption fizzles at the root when you read al-Tabari's positive assertion: "On the day he consummated the marriage with her, she was nine years old."

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

This is ignorant nonsense, bikr means a virgin girl, a girl who has never been married even if her age is 0 and there is no unclarity here whatsoever.

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Ayesha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Rather, Ibn Hajar mentions two versions: (1) al-Waqidi's narration that Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35; and (2) Ibn Abd al-Barr's narration that she was born when he was 41, approximately one year more or less before Prophethood, and about five years beforeA'isha was born. The latter version matches the established dates.

So our Mother `A'isha was nineteen to twenty years younger than her sister Asma' (b. 27 before Hijra-d. 74) and about five years to eight years Fatima's junior.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Those that itch to follow misguidance always resort to solipsisms because they are invariably thin on sources. In this particular case "the Learner" proves to be ignorant and dishonest. It is no surprise he moves on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises to false conclusions.

Hajj Gibril

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Dear friends, thank you very much for being kind enough to participate. I love you all.

As for discussion, it was about wife beating and not about child marriages. It would have been better under my other thread but thanks all the same.

Dear faris undeen, I am grateful for your heart felt encouragement and support.

Dear Mizsani, thank you drawing our attention to reports but the point I made clear was that ahadith cannot be used against the quran. This is not my saying it is principle of muslim ummah. May be you have heard about ISRAELIYAAT ie forgeries that were interoduced by muslims of jewish origin who tried to mislead people. These people used to become muslims one day and go back to their old ways the next. The quran talks about them if you have read it.

So the idea of false ahadith is not a new one. It is for such reasons that ahadith accounts no matter how many are rejected if they oppse the quran and there is no other explanation for them.

I give you a very simple principle that islam is based on some concrete principles and this islam was preached by the prophet. He wanted what was good for all from an individual to the whole humanity. He told people look after your parents and relatives even if they are kufar and tell you to be a kafir. He did not encourage muslims to break up with their families unless they started a war against them and therefore muslims as people are forced to take steps to defend themselves.

Likewise the quran is full of verses where it tells us to be good to each other. We are told to spend our wealth on strangers and slaves to free them etc etc.

In this context, how can anyone justify anything out of context of islam?

Child molesting is clearly for people who are enemies of humanity as far as islam, quran and the propeht are concerned. I already explained that imaam bukhari did not scrutinise the reports he put in his collection but only looked at their isnaad in sense of they being complete or not. It were other ulema of islam who took on responsibiltiy of checking those people out from whom immaams of ahdith collection narrated their ahadith. The later ulema were still not pleased and took on the responsibility of checking out the contents of the ahadith as well.

So if any reports already have been questioned by past muslims scholars of the said fields then it leaves no room for any arguments after that ie we should not accept such reports as seem senseless from all possible angles.

It is not for me to convince anyone but for people themselves to see how the information they have before them makes sense. It is like there is case in front of you and you are the judge and you must decide the case by accepted common sense rules.

Dear hareem, thank you very much for your very informative post and participation.

Thank you all and all the best.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

^Thank you for a wonderful reply.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

are u talking about me here??? cuz i just asked a question.. and that too in the most respectful manner.. I did not say anything bad.. I was just curious and wanted to be know the truth about it instead of bashed 4 asking a question. If by "the learner" u mean me, if I was ignorant, I would not read all the information u provided and continue to be ignorant about the topic. I asked a question because I was unsure.. no need to be rude or make personal statements. And I do not know how I was being dishonest... I posted the info. I found here... and asked a question... whts a lie about tht??? Also, about the being thin on sources.. all the sources are stated above soo plz dont even go there. Plus, these points are not mine.. i read this online at alot of the websites and posted it here because I wanted to find out the truth.... so plz do not disrespect me 4 no reason. Plus, I asked mughal a question, not u.. so plz dont start argument 4 no reason.

thnx 4 the info. I hope this comment wasnt directed at me... and if it wasnt, plz ignore my comments. :)

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Pardon my ignorance guys, but I've heard that Hazrat Aisha used to play with dolls even after her marraige to Prophet pbuh. And I reckon its not very usual for 19 year olds to play with the dolls? I'm not asking for hadiths to varify Hazrat Aisha's age, I've read Hareem's post, just want to ask how valid is the incident of Hazrat Aisha playing with the dolls and what does it ultimately suggests about her age?

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

errr....this is an article from a website called Sunnipath. So these aren't my words nor they are directed at you.

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

lolll oooo okieee
heheheh...
sorry then..

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Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you dear Jolie, as for the hadith reports I have already explained the rule, so if there is no other explanation of the report you are refering to then it is probably problematic. I need to see the full report before I could comment on it but dolls on their own do not necesarily prove young age of the player with them It depends on the purpose eg in kids nurseries usually such adults are employed who like playing with kids because they love kids. It is possible that the said wife of the prophet was such a person so she got some dolls for kids so that they come and play with her and may be learn some things from her as well. It is nature of people that when they do not have kids of their own they especially love kids of other folks. Since the prophet had kids but some of his wives did not so that may explain the extra attention kids will get from these ladies. May be thers is some other explanation as well of which I am not aware. I too am here to learn of others. It is a mutual exercise.

But thanks again for raising the question may be some one knows some hadith that explains such like ahadith. Regardless the rules must always be kept in mind when studying the quran or ahadith otherwise things can become very confusing. There is a rule that for ahkaam=commandments and directives very solid and clear hadith are used not the ones that cannot be understood or explained in light of accepted common sense rules.

regards and all the best.