Is wife beating against the quran?

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

@mughal... sorry about the distracting question... ur thread about wife beating is very informative.. it shows how translations can make something so completely different.

22

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you dear mizsani, I am grateful that you raised a point for discussion so no need to be sorry. If we do not ask questions we do not learn, it is simple as that. We are all here to learn by way of helping each other.

regards and all the best

23

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Bismillah

Distortion of the shriah at the highest degree...this thread pretty much highlights our weak character and sacrificing our deen due to external pressure. May Allah protect us from this fitnah

my dear brother mughal, could you please explain to me why do we make wudhu the way we do and pray 2 rakah in fajr but 4 for dhuhr etc.? Or are you going to say that it is also fabricated.

as I've quoted the famous statement of Imam Malik (Rahimahullah) many times on this fourms in which he said: "whatever was not part of deen in their (sahabas) times, it will never be part of deen in our times".

24

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?


4: 34

Shakir : Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Pickthal : Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Yusufali [4:34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

To the orginal poster, Mughal .... what is the traslation of وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ according to u. From ur orginal post it seems like u totally took the world out Or i wasnt able to understand ur post properly.

25

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Dear AllahkaBanda, please quote my post where I said ahadith are a fabrication. It is possible that you have misunderstood my point. I just explained that there are also fabricated ahadith but that is what scholars of islam themselves said. This is why they devised tests to sort out between them. If you believe that all ahdith attrubuted to the prophet are true then that is up to you dear brother. I do have my own views so till I see better I shall continue along that line.

I think it will be difficult if not impossible for anyone to explain some so called ahadith which are related to stoning, sunnah, wife beating, child marraige, forced marriage etc etc. However, if you have any better explanations please be kindly and share, after all we are here to learn of each other. I do not mind some one correcting me and you too are likewise welcome.

regards and all the best.

26

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you dear aqeel, my point is that wife beating is wrong translation because it does not gow with the flow of text of the quran. I explained, how the context the quran makes better sense eg there are two levels of separation a)only man and wife only know that they are angry with each other b)There families also become aware that they are separated from each other. So translation becomes advise them or separate them in the beds or separate them in the house as well but if they accept the advise then do not go betond that. It is like taking steps 1st, 2nd , 3rd & 4th. Going beyond is, the wife made a mistake and you go straight for divorce instead of going for ways of reconciliation.

Beat is wrong also that if a wife is really not happy with you then she will do what she wants to do behind your back. This advise is only for a wife who is not this kind of wife but a god loving wife who herself know wrong and right and just for some reason made a mistake. A one off mistake.

The other thing to remeber is that women have similar rights against men as well. It is balance of power that man and wife keep each other in check in the name of god and humanity. This is not about one side beating the hell out of the other. You will not have the family atmosphere that way. This works like government and opposition but for tyhe good of the family.

I am not insisting that my translation is correct but that people who translate word daraboo in to beat are definitely wrong because it makes no sense in islamic concept or quranic context. My other point mis thgat this word has many different meanings so why insist on using it in sense that makes no sense? Verse 35 explains verse 34 very clearly. Does it make sense that some one tells you go beat up your wife first and then get others involved for reconciliation?

As for past scholars, there explanantions are only good if they are consistent with what islam stands for and not because they are scholars of islam. Anyone can make mistakes. Even prophets are not free of making odd mistake, look at at story of adam in the quran. Allah says, he just made a mistake but it was not wilful disobedience on part of adam.

So making mistake is not a problem but holding on to mistake is, once right way becomes is made clear to a person.

Therefore dear aqeel I cannot accept the wrong translation of the quran if it is possible to show that there better translation is possible. In islam wife is not slave of her husband but an equal partner for sharing life in a best possible way and raising a great family of which the tribe and wider society should be proud and allah and rasool with be pleased, which is obviously good for their hereafter as well.

If you have time please read again what I am saying you may understand what I am trying to put arcoss otherwise may allah forgive all of us for our mistakes.

my regards and best wishes.

27

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

^^

So i read ur posts and tried to make some sense here.

This is breif summary of ur posts:

the traslation of Quran is not neceserially rite. Agreed.
The scolars can be wrong. Agreed. even Prophets can (dont agree but off the topic)
The quran is clear that allah only made such things and actions unlawful as could prove more harmful than good. (Agreed, Its very Imporant Point ... I think this statement is heart of the whole thread....i will come back to this)
word daraba has many different meanings eg beat, hit, strike, multiply, separate, leave, let go, push away, trial, test, similar etc etc. (which meaning do u suggest applie here ?)

"**
[QUOTE]
The question is what is third step?
[/QUOTE]
**
[QUOTE]
According to most translators and the interpreters of the quran it is for husband to start beating up the wife till she submits and if she does then that is the end of problem. How sad that scholars made this serious accusation against the quran? It is because in the next verse we are told that people from both families must get involved to help them get back together again. This point, with commandment for not taking law into one’s own hand and the law that one must be just and fair etc make it very clear that the quran is not ordering man to beat up his wife. It is just giving another suggestion and after that telling families and relatives of the parties to get involved in getting them back together again.

[/QUOTE]

Well ur statements are contarary here .... If u mean to say that 3rd step is there (beat ur wife) but we should skip it because its optional and not must then it makes good sense but u kinda deleted this part per ur calims in next paragraph (bolded part in black)

[QUOTE]
The quran is telling man and wife to make their separation public as a third step ie send the wife back to her parents or relatives etc. This step can also help man and wife get back together again because people will start talking about them. When this separation becomes known to other may be other will want to marry these people so if these two want to get back then they must or they could lose the chance if man or wife marries some one else. The relative also become concerned so they get involved as a forth and final say. If this solves the problem fine otherwise legal steps become necessary towards reconciliation, or separation or divorce."

[/QUOTE]

(wouldnt that be 4th step) ? It seems like u elimnated the 3rd step....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what i get from ur posts (1st and last) :

[QUOTE]

In case of problem there is a check list to follow.

  1. Mutual talk ..... if it works then stop. if it doesnt go to step 2.
  2. Seperate ur beds. if it works then stop. If it doesnt step 3.
  3. Make their separation public. if it workds stop. If it doesnt step 4.
  4. Take legal steps become towards reconciliation, or separation or divorce.

[/QUOTE]

end of story. Find a new spouse. Take a chill pill. My friend I appritiate ur effort but u totally deleted a part of ayat. I could agree with u if u didnt agree with traslation and came up with better trasltion but deleting the part of ayyat is similair to what christians did to Bible and jews did to torah ?

There is a good posibility that my brain wasnt good enough and i wasnt able to catch how u got rid of the part of ayyat so i would ask for help again and ask u to tell me what did u do with **وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ **this part of ayyat ?

**
[QUOTE]

The quran is clear that allah only made such things and actions unlawful as could prove more harmful than good. (Agreed, Its very Imporant Point ... I think this statement is heart of the whole thread....i will come back to this)

[/QUOTE]

I will come back to this but i wana make sure i understand ur message first.**

Wasalam
Aqeel

28

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

This ayah is against wife beating and domestic violence but the irony is that some people use this ayah to actually justify domestic violence.

29

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Okay Mughal Bahi i would assume that my understanding was rite....

[QUOTE]
*The quran is clear that allah only made such things and actions unlawful as could prove more harmful than good. *
[/QUOTE]

Above said, Islam does give you option of beating ur wife lightly if that can save marriage as Divorce is worst then beating ur wife lightly.

So heres the check list,

  1. Mutual talk ..... if it works then stop. if it doesnt go to step 2.
  2. Seperate ur beds. if it works then stop. If it doesnt step 3.
  3. Beat them lightly if you think that can solve problem here if they do,
  4. Make their separation public. if it workds stop. If it doesnt step 5
  5. Take legal steps become towards reconciliation, or separation or divorce.

Wasalm
Aqeel

30

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you brother aqeel for responding. I would like you to think about what is purpose of bearting in its own context.

Beating in master slave context only and only means one thing, beating one up at least till one submits to the will of the master.

You are going for step four after beating and that is even bigger problem because if wife is already rebilious and want to leave then it is more likely that she will do what she wants to do even quicker. You see you cannot force people to agree or put sense of responsibility in to them even by beating them up. The prison does not work for criminals and beating does not work even on children ie they do thing even more if you stop them by beatings.

Here are some more verses, see what they are about.

058.011 *YUSUFALI:* O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do.

  • 004.128 * YUSUFALI: If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

  • 002.229 * YUSUFALI: A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).

  • 002.231 * YUSUFALI: When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

  • 002.233 * YUSUFALI: The mothers shall give such to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term. But he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms. No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear. No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay (the mother) what ye offered, on equitable terms. But fear Allah and know that Allah sees well what ye do.

In all verses like these again and again allah tells husbands to not be cruel to their wives and don't hold them against their will.

4/34 has been translated wrong not only in case word daraba but also nushooz as well. This word also means if woman thinks of divorce so ill conduct is wrong translation. That is obvious from the other verses where husband wants to leave the wife.

Read these verses in arabic and see if that makes sense. Translations can be wrong, they are not word of god. Also mawlanas do make mistakes this is why we are so divided even today.

So aqeel mere bhai you will have to forgive me, I am having difficulty in understanding your point.

But good luck any way and all the best.

31

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Mughal bahi, i think we are not able to understand each others point becoz we come from different back ground. I understand UR EFFORT IS FOR A JUST CAUSE which is not to be cruel to ur wife and i am against all cruel acts becoz i am muslim and claim to be follower of Imam Hussain a.s.

I cant agree more with you, but i am not unable to understand ur interpretation of that ayah-e-Mubarak.

Beating someone till they submit is not gona work and i dont think 4/34 tells us to beat wifes until they submit, but i do beleive that sometimes a little punishment does make a personal realize he was wrong. For example if a kid misbehaves with an elderly person, i think his parents have a right to go ahead and pull his ear so he doesnt do it again. Especially not in front of his parents. This exmaple is justification of slight punishment please dont start comparing wife with children yet.

I am a married guy and understand the consequences of touching my wife with such intention(beating her). So i am not promoting act of beating wives here rather i am trying to understand ur justification of not beating wife becoz sooner or later all muslims who live in west have to justify that in front of non muslims.

According to Quran a muslim can have four wives. However, Quran doesnt force you to have 4 wives. In past it wasnt a big deal if a person had four wives now its looked at as something bad and the way its going ... in future u will hardly see a guy with multiple wives. Now does that mean our future generations have to give justifications that Islam doesnt allow a guy to have four wives ? no.....Quran is for the generations of past present and future, Quran gives us option of marrying four wives... But again it doesnt force us, so today atleast for me thats not a valid option.

Same applies to beating wives.... it wasnt considered a big deal in past to beat ur wife. However Quran repeatedly talks against injuring women thats a lesson for those who use to beat up there wives severely. Today even touching ur wife with such intention is considered bad so one should avoid it at all costs becoz Quran doesnt order us to do it.

In Short i would conclude that it was an option for generations in past ... But becoz its an option and not a requirement it doesnt apply to us.

32

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

Thank you aqeel bhai, mera khayaal hai ab mujhe aap ki baat kuchh samajh aai hai.

But in that case you do not need justification from the quran and that is my point.

The point is that once you marry sensibly things are likely to remain sensible and beating is never going to be needed. However in our culture a lot of parents do not educate their daughters and many cannot even afford it, so we end up with mismatches and in that case we deal with problems as we see fit but then it is wrong to blame the quran for that or to try and justify things that are actually wrong in the name islam.

It is also our culture that usually a wife has strong brothers and if one does what you are saying to his wife then one might have to lock himself into a room with a strong door when they come round see how their breother in law is doing.

This is how things are done culture wise ie people do beat each other up a lot. In fact no day goes without some one killing some one over family quarrels.

The quran is therefore telling us not to go down that road or you may not live to regret it.

regards and all the best.

33

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called ‘civilized’ societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their ‘liberty’ and ‘independence’ to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?
The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is
no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. According to the different scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives, It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Women in Christianity and Islam

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninsociety.html

The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}.
IslamiCity - The Global Muslim eCommunity

34

Re: Is wife beating against the quran?

^ I agree with the fact that Islam is the first religion to put limit on wives but in Islam men are allowed to have multiple wives(up to four at a time). You cant use a phrase and ignore rest of the ayya to convince others. You are rite but explanation isnt very impressing.

You can use this phrase "marry only one" and put restriction on a guy saying he is allowed to marry only once in his whole life. Or use phrase "dont marry" and say marriage isnt allowed in islam.