Is violence the answer?

Re: Is violence the answer?

Bhai, Madrassa is just a name. If they would be under government and their job is to give education, they would be under education department anyhow. As for name, its OK, no problem, that is traditional name for school. Even school should be called Madrassa, no problem. :)

But then government can decide to give the name religious school or madrasssa. I kept religious education (reading Quran or deeper religious education) out of main stream school, because I am giving choice to people about if they would like their childrren to go for madrassa or not (as some might like to teach their kids religion at home). As for main stream school, they can teach basics of religion to all.

As for Saudia and Dubai or other gulf countries, they even control religion and persecute different sects. I would prefer that all have their choice, as Pakistan belongs to all, not to any one. Thus, all citizens of Pakistan; be they Muslims (of any sect or Maslak) or non-Muslims, should be treated equally in the eyes of state.There should be no discrimination between citizens and all should live in harmony.

Re: Is violence the answer?

^^ Amen Saleem brother!

Re: Is violence the answer?

Ameen ...

But I believe that unfortunately, many in the country (many even in crucial government posts) ... Pig-heads, do not like and would not like to accept that Pakistan belongs to all and all citizens of Pakistan should live with equal rights and in harmony, without one bulldozing their beliefs over others, or persecuting others on basis of religious beliefs. Its sad, but unfortunately true. It is these people that are cause of all troubles for Pakistan.

Re: Is violence the answer?

First off, I recognize your MO. I don't see you forwarding any original thoughts and just critiquing others. I would like to hear your thoughts on how to solve this mess? Particularly in light of your signature that implies that the Mullahs and the Army is the root cause of the troubles. No really, I will gladly step back and hear your plan of stopping extremism and restoring democracy.

Secondly, please tell me that you have been in FATA without a beard and held captive days on end/harassed/punished. I am keeping my background and level of exposure confidential for various reasons, but really I will respect you greatly if you can tell me that you have entered FATA or a place like Waziristan and faced this hostility.

Thirdly, the peace deal was not a failure. It prevented further bloodshed and defused tensions. This Red Mosque matter, but more importantly the US pressure, has led to exacerbating the tensions. While we had no choice in the Lal Masjid incident, this stepped up pressure in FATA means more soldiers in body bags and more suicide bombings not just in Islamabad but also in your hometown of Karachi, guaranteed. I could care less about their attacks in Afghanistan and its illegitimate occupied government. While the only reason the Pakistan and its armed forces were attacked was due to their involvement in this conflict at the behest of the US.

Yea let America do it's job the brilliant way it does. If Pakistan is attacked and President Musharraf doesn't do anything it will be the end of his government one way or the other. Also every single city of importance WILL be in flames, if you know what I mean..

Religion and religious parties have a strong role in ending this civil strife in Pakistan. By bringing them to the table, will allow us all to break out of this situation without further bloodshed. Name ONE Islamic movement that has been dismantled violently in a Muslim Majority country? You will find no examples. If you want to try out the brilliant Hamas vs. Fatah route of Palestine or the Muslim Brotherhood clampdown in Egypt go right ahead. Unlike many people here, I am calling for minimizing Pakistani bloodshed.

Re: Is violence the answer?

That's so true! Mullahs are the biggest instigators against other maslaks and religions. They have been able to blackmail successive governments through the use of street terror.

However we have reached a point, where nation can give no more and Mullahs are going utterly mad. in fact so mad that they are now using Arab-inspired Suicide bombing against us and against Mullahs of different faiths. Remember the bombing of brailve meeting in Nishtar park.

So it is time to stand up against the Mullah terror. Otherwise soon our cities will resemble the Mullah jannat of Kandhar, Kabul, and Jalalabad.

Re: Is violence the answer?

^^
You are absolutely right. Pakistan has to fight the war against them at whatever cost. Because, if not today than tomorrow would be too late and it could end in bloody civil war.

Re: Is violence the answer?

Pak-one: Reading your post it seems that you are trying to make believe that those retards can be threat? Believe me, they are not, they can blow some patakha here and there, blow themselves to jahanum, may bleed some in Pakistan and that’s all.

I don’t like violent solution, though that is possible. The only reason I don’t like violent solution is different than what you are trying to preach. To me, these retards are working for Shaitan, and violently suppressing them would be again playing in the hand of Shaitan in different way.

Because, they becoming human patakha and killing Pakistanis, showing up as ninja and goat brigades, and threatening people at various places in Pakistan, is creating perception that what they are doing is what Islam teaches (though obviously Islam abhor such acts what they do). Anyhow, the result of their actions is damaging Islam and creating hate for Islam in Pakistan, and practicing Muslims (who mostly are peaceful people) are getting effected from their actions. On the other hand, violently suppressing these retards may not necessarily bring a lasting solution, as they would increase their retarded actions (creating more hate towards Islam), and may crop up their head again in future. That is the reason I believe that some sort of peaceful non-violent everlasting solution is needed, but not at the cost of leaving them retards do what they like. [One solution, I just posted above in this thread]

Letting them do what they like means, having parallel government in Pakistan (like at the moment we have, where FATA seems to want independence to do whatever they like, even invade another country using Pakistan soil against government policy, and that is analogous to a separate government), and that by no means a good idea. Pakistan cannot afford to have civilians (all people of FATA are civilians) in arms that can become challenge and threat to Pakistan that is bound to start civil war in Pakistan, if not today than in future (or alternative of civil war would be majority of Pakistanis would have to live as suppressed people to them retards). Hence, they have to get disarmed, by negotiation, by incentives, by their cooperation, or by force.

As for fighting war for America, I don’t believe on that. I know that Pakistan is burning in slow heat civil war since long time (sectarian violence, violence against government, violence to impose one type of law or other in Pakistan, and so on). America is not burning in any war or terrorism, they are living peacefully in their own country. USA is using slogan 'war on terror' just to sell their expedition to their own citizens. This is intolerable what these retards are doing in Pakistan. These people want to force their beliefs (their misguided Islam) over majority, and want that what they like that government enforce it on Pakistan.

Thus, fighting these evil forces is need for Pakistan and if it seems that Pakistan is fighting war for USA, it may look that way, especially due to propaganda and how things seems, but in reality, Pakistan is fighting own war. Whatever cost maybe, it has to be given, as if this war is not fought and won today, tomorrow would be too late, because these retards would keep spreading and one day, would cause bigger civil war.

Re: Is violence the answer?

Glad you recognize my MO since I wear it on my shoulder proudly. Glad you are open minded, can't say the same for many in the mullah camp.

[quote]
Secondly, please tell me that you have been in FATA without a beard and held captive days on end/harassed/punished. I am keeping my background and level of exposure confidential for various reasons, but really I will respect you greatly if you can tell me that you have entered FATA or a place like Waziristan and faced this hostility.
[/quote]

Never been inside FATA, been near to the border of the tribal areas many years ago. I don’t claim to be an expert on the flora and fauna of the tribal areas. But even then one can have a good picture of what is happening in the area. The traditional tribal maliks are losing power to the hot headed Taliban and their terrorist ways. If the tribal maliks were to be replaced by a proper political setup, abolishment of FCR, integration into Pakistan, I would have been all for it, but in this case we something far far worse.

[quote]
Thirdly, the peace deal was not a failure. It prevented further bloodshed and defused tensions. This Red Mosque matter, but more importantly the US pressure, has led to exacerbating the tensions. While we had no choice in the Lal Masjid incident, this stepped up pressure in FATA means more soldiers in body bags and more suicide bombings not just in Islamabad but also in your hometown of Karachi, guaranteed. I could care less about their attacks in Afghanistan and its illegitimate occupied government. While the only reason the Pakistan and its armed forces were attacked was due to their involvement in this conflict at the behest of the US.
[/quote]

Hundreds of non extremist (pro-government/Pakistan if you will) tribal leaders were beheaded when this so-called peace accord was in effect. Attacks on security forces never completely stopped during this time. The Taliban not only gained more control in the tribal areas, but also extended their draconian laws and vandalism in the name of Islam over to the settled areas in the vicinity. This has been an utter failure for the people of the area. Illegal FM channels have propped up every where singing praises of suicide bombings and ordering people to stop sending girls to school (see Mullah Fazlullah in Swat as one recent example). We all can guess which path this is headed when we as civilized Pakistanis cede ground to these mullahs. There demands will not stop at Swat or Tank.

[quote]
Yea let America do it's job the brilliant way it does. If Pakistan is attacked and President Musharraf doesn't do anything it will be the end of his government one way or the other. Also every single city of importance WILL be in flames, if you know what I mean..
[/quote]

You’re right and that’s why we need to sort this out ourselves instead of giving ample opportunity for America to bomb the entire place. America has learned some lessons from Afghanistan and Iraq, that it cannot occupy foreign lands and is better off using massive air superiority to get to its targets. If we allow the area to be used for attacks into Afghanistan, America will bomb it. They already have before.

[quote]
Religion and religious parties have a strong role in ending this civil strife in Pakistan. By bringing them to the table, will allow us all to break out of this situation without further bloodshed. Name ONE Islamic movement that has been dismantled violently in a Muslim Majority country? You will find no examples. If you want to try out the brilliant Hamas vs. Fatah route of Palestine or the Muslim Brotherhood clampdown in Egypt go right ahead. Unlike many people here, I am calling for minimizing Pakistani bloodshed.
[/quote]
Ok, I won’t even mention what Assad did in Syria….oops I just did. But anyways, you are only delaying much greater bloodshed through these fake peace deals.

Re: Is violence the answer?

Violence begets violence, why is that everytime force is used in against someone (Afghanistan, Iraq, )Lebanon, Vietnam) more and more people join the "guerilla" fight. Remember whenever a "fight" results in "collateral" deaths more people will get involved, its just human nature. "Birth" of Taliban/AlQaeda was result of 'grass-root' work "educating" people to fight, to "wind-up" the operation similar efforts are needed. If someone thinks bombing of mosque/masjid/jamia/"militants" will solve the problems I feel sorry for such people.

Re: Is violence the answer?

Killing the brains of the operation does seem to work to some extent, atleast in throwing the organization into some disarray as they look to recoup... Israel has been succesful to some degree in thrwoing groups like Hamas into a tail spin. Maybe appeasment is your idea of defense, but dont expect us all to fall for your suicidal policies!

Its non violent in that we arent going after the whole organization gun blazing, we are only killing their heads...

And dont be so condescending... We all have roots in Pakistan and we all care about it... We all came from Pakistan, we are all effected by what happens there, not just arrogant pseudo peaceniks like you... You people think you sit in Pakistan and you KNOW everything that is going on and you experience everything! What amrtyr you are! Hoinestly, try leaving your posh little housing society and see the rest of Pakistan and then talk!

And I didnt say the MQM was a savior genius... Perhaps if you could get your head out of your ass, you would understand the meaning... I meant that you cant allow religous parties such as the JI to take control at the expense of secular forces... How did you miss that?

You have absolutely no grasp of internal warfare, infact you have no knowledge of warfare in general... If I really needed lectures on "warfare" from intelectual midgets, I will ask!
Now calm down...

Re: Is violence the answer?

Name one Islamic movement that was put down by kissing their arse as you imply!
You have to be brain dead to think the terrorists will just roll over and die with people like you sending them flowers and begging them to be nice..
Get real!

Re: Is violence the answer?

Or name one Islamic movement that has succeeded even remotely in its intent and goals?

Re: Is violence the answer?

**Glad you recognize my MO since I wear it on my shoulder proudly. Glad you are open minded, can’t say the same for many in the mullah camp.
**

Absolutely. So you still have not answered my question about a solution to this mess? If this is a true discussion then I expect a response just like you would expect one from me.

**
Never been inside FATA, been near to the border of the tribal areas many years ago. I don’t claim to be an expert on the flora and fauna of the tribal areas. But even then one can have a good picture of what is happening in the area. The traditional tribal maliks are losing power to the hot headed Taliban and their terrorist ways. If the tribal maliks were to be replaced by a proper political setup, abolishment of FCR, integration into Pakistan, I would have been all for it, but in this case we something far far worse.
**

Right, all of these assertions are not really supported by reality. The core issue is indeed the presence of the Taliban.The reasons behind it are drastically different.

**
Hundreds of non extremist (pro-government/Pakistan if you will) tribal leaders were beheaded when this so-called peace accord was in effect. Attacks on security forces never completely stopped during this time. The Taliban not only gained more control in the tribal areas, but also extended their draconian laws and vandalism in the name of Islam over to the settled areas in the vicinity. This has been an utter failure for the people of the area. Illegal FM channels have propped up every where singing praises of suicide bombings and ordering people to stop sending girls to school (see Mullah Fazlullah in Swat as one recent example). We all can guess which path this is headed when we as civilized Pakistanis cede ground to these mullahs. There demands will not stop at Swat or Tank.
**

I think you fail to understand the Taliban, their objectives and composition. There are more than enough reports and investigative pieces floating around the net. If you would like, drop me a PM and I cn give few book titles.

**
You’re right and that’s why we need to sort this out ourselves instead of giving ample opportunity for America to bomb the entire place. America has learned some lessons from Afghanistan and Iraq, that it cannot occupy foreign lands and is better off using massive air superiority to get to its targets. If we allow the area to be used for attacks into Afghanistan, America will bomb it. They already have before.
**

Here we are in complete agreement. A solution, a non-violent one, is necessary. What do you propose?

**
Ok, I won’t even mention what Assad did in Syria….oops I just did. But anyways, you are only delaying much greater bloodshed through these fake peace deals.**

Here I will dismantle your assertions. If you referring to the destruction of Hama, where thousands of Sunnis of the Muslim Brotherhood were killed, you must not actually believe that it dismantled the Sunni extremist resistance?

Granted Syria has manipulated the extremists to serve its interests but more on that later.

Article #1

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] When the fighters were defeated or deported back to Syria, a combination of frustration, anger and despair overtook them. Unable to strike at the Americans in Iraq or the Israelis in Palestine, they unleashed their anger on their fellow Syrians. In addition to the Mezzeh attack of 2004, a group of terrorists were apprehended, after a shooting that caused panic among picnickers, in July 2005 on Mount Qassioun overlooking the Syrian capital. Earlier in the summer of 2005, Syria announced that it had arrested one man and killed another who had been planning an attack in Damascus on behalf of Jund al-Sham, a terrorist organization that has recently emerged in the country.

http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369768

Articel 1 was a bit old so,

Article #2

A Look at the Terror Group Jund Al-ShamBy The Associated Press
The Associated Press
Tuesday, September 12, 2006; 1:56 PM

– The group Jund al-Sham, Arabic for Soldiers of Syria, has claimed responsibility or been blamed for a number of bombings and gunbattles, mainly in Lebanon and Syria. Syrian officials have portrayed it as the most active militant group in the country. But its origins and makeup remain murky.

It appears to be targeting the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad because of its secular, nationalist ideology and a crackdown led by Assad’s father, Hafez Assad, that killed thousands of Muslim fundamentalists in the 1980s. The militants also reject rule by the Assad family because it belongs to the Shiite Alawite branch of Islam.

Damascus _ which is accused by the United States of supporting terrorism for its backing of the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah and Palestinian militants _ argues that Jund al-Sham demonstrates that it, too, is targeted by terrorism. Bashar Assad claimed in June that al-Qaida-linked militants were taking refuge in Lebanon.

The Sunni Muslim Jund al-Sham is believed to have first emerged in Afghanistan in 1999, established by Syrians, Palestinians and Jordanians with links to the Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who later became leader of al-Qaida in Iraq and was killed this year in a U.S. airstrike.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/12/AR2006091200844.html

Threats faced by Bashar:

Bashar Assad, analysts said, faces two imminent threats. First, the Syrian Army, where the Sunni Muslim forces are controlled by a handful of Alawite officers, may erupt in a bid to throw off Alawite hegemony. .
Ali Bayanoni, a fundamentalist Sunni leader in exile in Jordan, recently predicted this outcome. .
Also, said the Arab ambassador, “the Alawites themselves may worry that Bashar is not tough enough to safeguard their interests.”
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/06/13/alawite.2.t.php#

Coming back to the issue of the authoritarian Syrian regimes support of extremist groups, my points are further strengthened. The Syrians have supported Hizballah, the extremists in Iraq, and Hamas in a bid to minimize the domestic threat to the regime. By supporting these religious organizations outside of the country, Bashar and co. have very deftly kept the conflict outside it’s borders. That is something that Pakistan needs to learn. Of course I am not calling for state sponsored terrorism, however shifting the extremist agenda away from the domestic arena should be the goal.

Re: Is violence the answer?

You constantly flame and BS, but you have yet to mention a single “peaceful” method in controling these terrorists…
Since your sitting in the middle of PAKISTAN, you must obviously know EXACTLY what needs to be done…
So please, enlighten us!

Re: Is violence the answer?

*Killing the brains of the operation does seem to work to some extent, atleast in throwing the organization into some disarray as they look to recoup... Israel has been succesful to some degree in thrwoing groups like Hamas into a tail spin. *

Yes, indeed Hamas was thrown into disarray. That tailspin involved the total control of the Gaza strip and the eradication of the Fatah presence.

**
Maybe appeasment is your idea of defense, but dont expect us all to fall for your suicidal policies!
**

You appease enemies. These are Pakistani people. I am not speaking in favor of any foreign Arab, Uzbek et al elements.

**
Its non violent in that we arent going after the whole organization gun blazing, we are only killing their heads...
**

It is still violent. When you kill the 'heads' you assuredly 1. Radicalize the group further 2. New leaders emerge. There is no shortage.

**
And dont be so condescending... We all have roots in Pakistan and we all care about it... We all came from Pakistan, we are all effected by what happens there, not just arrogant pseudo peaceniks like you... You people think you sit in Pakistan and you KNOW everything that is going on and you experience everything! What amrtyr you are! Hoinestly, try leaving your posh little housing society and see the rest of Pakistan and then talk!
**

You are wrong on every single thing that you have stated. I don't need to further defend my background or integrity, so I'll move on.

**
And I didnt say the MQM was a savior genius... Perhaps if you could get your head out of your ass, you would understand the meaning... I meant that you cant allow religous parties such as the JI to take control at the expense of secular forces... How did you miss that?
**

I can see that your annoyed perhaps even angry to resort to foul language. But please don't further embarrass yourself. You stated:

  • Take the MQM for example, what religous extremist group could ever challenege their hold on Karachi?*

MQM's "hold" is in the election process in terms of representation in the government. MQM as a political party does not have ant bearing on the suicide bombers or the armed guerrillas. In fact having religious parties involved in the government is preferable to disorganized groups attacking govt installations. Is it clear enough? I am happy to break it down further?

**
You have absolutely no grasp of internal warfare, infact you have no knowledge of warfare in general... If I really needed lectures on "warfare" from intelectual midgets, I will ask! Now calm down...**

Well then, I expect that you will be ignoring my "intellectual midget" posts going forward? I do suggest that you take your own advice regarding calming down.

This schism between extremists and the government has emerged in many Muslim countries. The approach of wiping out the extremists is something that many people here are supporting, but it is not really an original approach. The US has done the same thing by attempting to wipe "terror cells and networks" since 2001. It has invaded two nations. This approach has been met with limited success: True, no new attacks in the US, but rather the dispersion of attacks throughout the world. Also the US is bogged down in never ending conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan, with many casualties.

To the Americans its an easy approach to take because when they see Iraqis or Afghanis they see potential Muslim terrorists. No distinctions are made and until very recently many US policymakers were unaware of the history/background of the countries they were occupying. Pakistan, on the other hand, has experience and does not have luxury of completely pulling out its troops since these things are happening on its soil, new approaches are needed. This is a great thread because LGB has asked for those new approaches.

Re: Is violence the answer?

There is no recent Islamic movement that has achieved its intent and goals. Only during the lifetime of the Prophet (PBUH) we can say that an Islamic movement not only reached but also exceeded it's goals.

Re: Is violence the answer?

I am answering questions that you and others have asked. I have already mentioned my support for the non-violent solutions, you just need to locate my posts on this and other related threads.

Re: Is violence the answer?

US is not remotely interested in solving the problem of terrorrism in Pakistan or elsewhere. It is in American military complex'x interest that these conflicts go on and dollars continue to flow in. It also helps to keep American troops in different regions and spread the neo-colonialism, though now it is called, "Free market economy" but it is just like British East India Copmany.

Re: Is violence the answer?

***Pak-one:* Reading your post it seems that you are trying to make believe that those retards can be threat? Believe me, they are not, they can blow some patakha here and there, blow themselves to jahanum, may bleed some in Pakistan and that’s all. **

I really wish you are correct. I mean this situation in Islamabad yesterday, can you think of a time where the Pakistani capital was under threat like this? I mean I pray that you and your family are no where near these sites, but we can't live in fear of these patakhas.

**
I don’t like violent solution, though that is possible. The only reason I don’t like violent solution is different than what you are trying to preach. To me, these retards are working for Shaitan, and violently suppressing them would be again playing in the hand of Shaitan in different way.

Because, they becoming human patakha and killing Pakistanis, showing up as ninja and goat brigades, and threatening people at various places in Pakistan, is creating perception that what they are doing is what Islam teaches (though obviously Islam abhor such acts what they do). Anyhow, the result of their actions is damaging Islam and creating hate for Islam in Pakistan, and practicing Muslims (who mostly are peaceful people) are getting effected from their actions. On the other hand, violently suppressing these retards may not necessarily bring a lasting solution, as they would increase their retarded actions (creating more hate towards Islam), and may crop up their head again in future. That is the reason I believe that some sort of peaceful non-violent everlasting solution is needed, but not at the cost of leaving them retards do what they like. [One solution, I just posted above in this thread]
**

I like your solution. I did not have a chance to respond because I was answering a few other people. We should integrate the religious schooling. It's a constructive idea that might take time but well worth implementing. I think you have a good grasp of the situation.
**
Letting them do what they like means, having parallel government in Pakistan (like at the moment we have, where FATA seems to want independence to do whatever they like, even invade another country using Pakistan soil against government policy, and that is analogous to a separate government), and that by no means a good idea. Pakistan cannot afford to have civilians (all people of FATA are civilians) in arms that can become challenge and threat to Pakistan that is bound to start civil war in Pakistan, if not today than in future (or alternative of civil war would be majority of Pakistanis would have to live as suppressed people to them retards). Hence, they have to get disarmed, by negotiation, by incentives, by their cooperation, or by force.
**

The situation in FATA is in the making from 1947. I am not sure if you know this but there were attempts to create an Islamic emirate in Malakand sometime back. It is not easy to get FATA disarmed, I think that the Mughals, Brits, other Pakhtuns, and now the Pakistani government has made one attempt or another to enter and control the territory, but with no success. The military suffered heavy casualties in their last attempt to secure the area.

Re: Is violence the answer?

While Hamas fights it out in Gaza, they are busy not attacking ISRAELIS genius!

Yeah, great excuse! These are our people, so we just give them a free hand to commit whatever crime the want! Ridiculous! These people are OUR enemies, get that through your head.. Pakistanis dont blow commit suicide attacks, and bomb girls schools, and music shops! These people are terrorists, they have btrayed their country... And you know what the punishment for treason is! Even in Islam, what is the punishment for mass murderers? The sooner you understand that these people are the enemy, the better!

When you kill the heads of these groups, you demoralize them and forece them to look to less experienced Jihadis to take their place... This makes them less effective atleast in the short term... Buys time to mount an effective attack.. Ofcourse such tactics have to be a last resort, but when was the last time Jihadists and terrorists ever cooperated?

You have no right to accuse others of anything.. You are a typical hypocrite!
You dont know me and you dont know anyone else on this forums background, so please, dont make yourself look like a bigger fool then you already are... Again, YOU ARE WRONG ON EVERY ACCOUNT!

I dont usually bother with people like you... Ignorance for you is a hobby and a way of life... Leave it at that. With rude comments like yours, you should expect and equally rude response...

The MQM is just an EXAMPLE get over it... The govts policy has been to sideline secular groups in favor of hard core extremists... The govts policy should be to sideline all religous and extrmeist groups in favor of secular groups...

I dont usually respond to rude long winded people like yourself... Infact, I didnt respond to your post, you responded to mine... If you have a problem with what I say, dont repond... Yours obviously an emotional person who has no grasp on the basics of mature dialogue. It seems your upset, perhaps your servant didnt press your shirt properly, or perhaps they didnt serve your dinner on time?! Stick to your housing colony and leave Pakistan to those who actually know whats happening.