Is there really a spirit or something within the idol?

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Guys,

Let me shut these Outlaws up!

One of the outlaw says: "For all the rest of idol worshippers, the path you are following is leading you to destruction and nothing else.."

Sounds like you are describing our muslim ummah. India and the other kafirs are doing much better than us Jahanatti(People of Heaven).

To my hindu friends - these low beings would readily degarde other muslims: shias, ismailias, ahmedias, zikris, just as they would hindus, christians, sikhs, etc.

They are our extremists/fanatics and, they are desperate! They cannot understand - they do everything as per their ulemas (also of the extremist genre), that is, degrade and murder their sisters, mothers and wives, ditto for other muslims and yet they remain the most ignorant & miserable.

So, they trash others for that spiritual satisfaction - they cannot derive from their extremist version of Islam.

42

Listen Illogical , you are just immitating to be a muslim. Don't be so ashamed of your own belief, you scumbag.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States of America and in rest of the world.
I don't need to worry about preserving my believes; my utmost duty is to unmask cowards like you who are the primary source of misconception.

[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited May 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited May 12, 2000).]

43

well outlaw, no one is dying here to go to heaven (pun intended)

44

Outlaw

My Islam teaches respect & tolerance and, my Islam has nothing in common with your Islam. So, why should i hesitate to expose those (the Outlaws) who degrade my Islam!

45

well said outlaw. logical is another hindu trying its best so we dont get to discuss hinduism.

logical Islam does not preach Inequality. Hinduism does. Now what do u have to say about that?

46

ZZ, I am not here to judge who's going to heaven and who's destined towards hell. Only Allah has the judgemental authority to make that decision. He who deciedes who's worthy of going to Jannah. If someone thinks otherwise, he/she is mistaken.
However, there are lotsa ayyahs in Quran prohibiting idol worshipping and leading consequences. If someone choose to do so, I can't stop them either.Only Allah has the authority to show an individual the right path. Even Allah told Mohammad(pbuh) as such.

[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited May 13, 2000).]

47

mundayya.. a lot was discussed in 'hinduism exposed' thread by ghazi.. you can read that thread, if u missed. repeating the same points for and against hinduism again and again would be waste of times. i don t think u have anything new to say. but if u feel u have, u r welcome.

48

ok so if something has been discussed it cant be discussed again?

if thats the case then everything that can be discussed related to Islam and hinduism should have been discussed already in the past couple of years of Pak.org.... so we should stop posting and start reading old posts? amazing suggestions maybe u should follow them before u open ur mouth on the subject of treatment of women in Pakistan maybe. Cos you sure dont get sick of repeating that story with Rani over and over and over again. do u?!

49

Mundyaa and all outlaws:

Read my thread:CAN MUSLIM WOMAN DIVORCE HER HUBAND?

Whoever bestows such inequalities & barbarism upon their mothers, wives and sisters are satan worshippers! You gave up worshipping Allah a long time ago!

Only those, that treat all beings with dignity, are worthy of worshipping Allah!

50

you guys seem to completely ignore my post. Please show some courtesy and at least attempt to answer my questions.

One thing I have learnt is that unlike other religions, Hindus believe that their final destination is non-existence because to become one with something means to cease to exist.

Then what is the point of life?

btw, I actually thought that the penis thing and the urine drinking was a myth.

51

scarface.. why do u think life should have a point or aim. why being nonexistent or be one whatever is existing not a good point.

some philosophies in hinduism believe that happiness is just another side of sadness. heaven or state of permanant happiness is transient. what is not transient is understanding the world. when u understand, u r one with the world or god. knowing the truth is power and when u know, u are relieved of cycles of happiness or sadness. that is moksha.

mundayya, if there are honest queerries as in case of scarface, i would answer. i am not interested in mud slinging matches. i had it before and i would refer to previous thread. there is hardly any hindu on this forum. and i can not answer the same rubbish again and again.

we keep getting in circles. if u read the posts before (or go to library and read on hinduism), there are points i have made.

a) Hinduism is not an unique philosophy.

b)Hindiuism is not unique mode of worship.

c) It is not even necessary that all philosophies named hindu philosophy believe in god.

d) Hinduism is a name given by foreigners to all the practices and philosophies prevalent in region (except buddhism). even by law, as in hindu code bill, hindu is defined as one 'who is not christian, muslim, jew, parsi'. it is a negative definition. cuz positive is not possible.

e) idol worshipping is not necessary feature of hinduism. there are sects which dont. in fact for any give feature, u can show sects that do not have it.

f) however, most hindus believe that other sects are EQUALLY true and they are different paths of approaching god. Hindus believe that supreme truth can be approached in various ways and everyone has its own.

This is a summary for newcomers like scarface.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited May 12, 2000).]

52

zz, u r pulling all this right out of ur rear end and u know it. trying ur best to confuse us all making us think that hinduism is an amulgum of several sections with each following different gods and philosophies. And trying to depict a rosy picture by claiming that hinduism allows whatever anyone thinks leads to the truth.

also false is the claim that a hindu worships one god. fact is hindus do not beleive in ONE god there are different stone made gods for rain sun and others. similarly snakes are worshipped for fertility and so are rats cows and monkeys. now u can deny all of this by claiming that these guys arent hindus but they themselves claim to be hindus. No body else does.

Secondly, a hindu by definition is forced to follow the cast system. maybe u will say that even thats not hinduism and this inequality leads to truth somehow.

53

What is rosy about it. 'aakashat patitam toyam yatha gacchati sagaram, sarva de v namaskaran keshavam pratigachti' (as the rainwater goes to sea in the end whicjever god u salute it reaches keshava or 'ek sat vipra bhudha vadanti' there is only one truth that wise men know by different names. I can give further quotations.)
I did not say all Hindus worship one god. All I said was that there are Hindus who worship one god like vedantis or arya-samajis. if Hindus are 'forced' to follow caste system, everyone who marres outside caste should be called non-Hindu, does that happen?
Hindu by definition is not forced to do anything. In fact if you look at ancient texts, there is no word 'hindu' in it. It has come later and named by foreigners for all practices and inhabitants prevailing.
What makes you claim I am dishonest. Just cuz it does not match with your madarassa teacher's version of Hinduism.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited May 13, 2000).]

54

ZZ,

Very Good reply. Mundayaa aim is not to understand Hinduism I really think the concepts you giving him are too deep for him. He has been brought up to see everything as black and white and not to question anything and he puzzled by a religion that has sprituality and toleration as its central theme and doesn't come with set of rules that dictate every move in a persons life.

I think it is hard for him to overcome teachingof his madrassas.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited May 13, 2000).]

55

so if a hindu is not forced to follow anything... then can a shudar become a brahman all of a sudden?

rani, yes and i am proud of what i learnt from my madrassas. your types on the other hand are ashmamed of everything they learnt from their mandir. u know it... and we feel it!!!! :)

56

Your language shows your education. We feel sorry for you and your parents and your religion. There is a strong need for you to unlearn what you learn in begotted madarassas.
In Kerala, there are temples which has priests from castes that were called shudra. In my part, vidarbha, increasing other caste people are learning the sanskrit and priesthood and earning living.
BTW, being a pandit is not a very glamourous profession. The brahmins who are rich are ones who went for modern eductaion. the people who stuck to priesthood remained poor. It is also not true that these poor priest who had neither money nor power got a big respect from society.
Traditionally, it has been the kings and warriars (kshatriyas) and money making classes (vaishyas) that have been powerful in all countries including india. Who is more powerful in your country, some maulana/qazi or general musharraf or industrialist-landlords or common worker. Of course, maulana/qazis can be bought to say what general or industrialist want to say. To give an example, how judges ended up giving their verdict. So whatever socitey talks of pundits or intellectuals in theory, in practice, they do not control.
Anyway, back to ur querry, can a shudar become brahmin, yes. He may not like to be one on paper since he will lose reservations and other government benefits.
I know plenty of upper castes trying to become lower caste by filing false certificates and getting caught in process. But alas, indian govt. will not allow brahmin to become shudra. even an aquaintance of mine, a brahmin woman, married to shudra is not treated as lower caste by govt.. she would like to be treated so, so that she get promotion.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited May 13, 2000).]

57

thanx for proving my points. nothing that u say is from a hindu book... or hindu teachings but ur own. on the other hand when we talk about Islam we bring up Quran and their principles all the time and discuss them.

u on the other hand dont talk about kama sutra do u? everything that u have said about hinduism isnt what hindus have taught but stuff that u made up cos it sounds right to u. The answer to my question is "NO A SHUDAR CAN NEVER BE A BRAHMAN" and u know it.

next time u feel sorry for anyone else feel sorry for urself and the ones who follow this sick religion.

58

I dont talk of any book as you talk of quran cuz there does not exist any book which is acceptable to all Hindus.
Given a wide range of theosophical differences, it is better to discuss what Hindus practice as of now which is what I am doing.
Your shining knowledge of hinduism is evident from your post. Apparently your madarassa teacher told you that kamasutra is a religious scripture. And you are asking why I dont quote from there. bravo!

59

Ok people this is enough ... I am a proud Muslim elhamdulilah and I think I have to say something. As far as my knowledge goes, Islam never teaches to attack someone else's religion. What we have over here is basically a Hindu VS Muslim situation which is quite unecessary. As Muslims, we are certainly not supposed to make fun of other ppl's religion. Someone mentioned Hindus worshipping a table, chair, and even a penis. Now, i don't know if all of this is true and even if it's true then why the hell are you talking about it? if someone is worshipping it then let him/her worship it !!
He/She is not forcing you to worship it !! It's their religion. They have their beliefs and we have ours. What's the flippin problem here? And the same goes to some of the Hindus here who were talking garbage B.S. about Islam. It shows that that person's intellectual capabilities are very very limited (he/she is probably pretty dumb). It really boils my blood but Islam teaches tolerance. Now, let me tell you guyz/gals something. If someone spits at the sun, he/she does not and can not harm the sun (the sun being Islam) in any way infact the phglemn will probably land on his/her face.
So, let's try to stop this fight.
Peace !!

There are two ways of exerting one's strength.
The first is pulling up and the second is pushing down.'

60

Let mundayya analyze hinduism. If he developes his critical powers, maybe he will analyze his own belief. After all Marx said that all analysis starts with analysis of religion.