An opinion was expressed that perhaps the divine laws revealed in (the Old Testament, New Testament and) Quran should not be followed any more, because the present-day society has changed a lot. The punishments prescribed in these divine books do not seem appropriate or relevant.
My initial answer, based on my knowledge about Islamic laws is as follows (from another thread). Please feel free to add your views:
Muslims, (…) believe that the only entity which has the power to dictate laws is our Creator. Our Creator gave us a complete set of core laws to live our lives. For newer issues which come up in present times, we can take guidance from the core law and come up with a solution, but we do not re-write the core law just because it is 1200 years old. The reason why it is not time-sensitive, is because it is not written by a man.
this is such a ridiculous argument the only people that bring this argument are the western institutions and secualr elite based in the muslim lands who only dream of this event happening.
They cannot intelletcually refute islam they can instead slander, say as an example the taliban is representative of islam in every way, also bring examples from pakistan where tribal laws are executed and thus they balame again islam when in fact secular law is the law that is implemented in pakistan.
another point we cannot compare the new testatment to the quran what an insult. The quran is perfect in every way the testament has been corrupted.
The muslim at time of muhammad(saw) had social problems, economic problem, judicial problems islam resolved all. today we have same problem only difference we don't have the islamic system in place to execute these systems.
If you believe that God made man (although, it’s debatable), then you should have some faith in your God that he made man who is capable of making laws to govern himself. If he wanted his own old and antiquated laws to be followed by man, without questioning the validity of such laws, he (God) would have made monkeys who are pretty good at doing what you tell them to.
God's system is perfect, so is His religion.. but the later additions to it have made Muslims the laughing stock of the world.
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Believe me PA, the very same people laugh at the Qur'an too. Are you now about to throw Allah's Book out of the window as well?
As for being laughed at, it won't be the first time:
"And he [Noah] began to make the ark; and whenever the chiefs from among his people passed by him they laughed at him. He said: If you laugh at us, surely we too laugh at you as you laugh (at us)." (11:38)
Those who are embarrassed at being laughed at resemble the Jews who displayed arrogance before Prophet Moses (as):
"And remember Moses said to his people: "Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said: "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said: "Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!" (2:67)
But let all believers remain patient in anticipation of Allah's reward:
"Lo! there was a party of My slaves who said: Our Lord! We believe, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us for Thou art Best of all who show mercy. But ye chose them for a laughing-stock until they caused you to forget remembrance of Me, while ye laughed at them. Lo! I have rewarded them this day forasmuch as they were steadfast in that they, even they, are the triumphant." (23:109-111)
Iqbal it must feel nice to be able to put 'laugh' in a Qur'an search engine and copy paste the verses but let's stick to the topic.. judgement by what Allah has revealed and not what man made up.
I really appreciate your valuable input so far. Please also keep in mind that the opinion was not raised by a muslim, so while its perfectly ok to quote Quranic verses in support of your argument, not all participants may accept Quranic verses. Therefore, please also include in your posts logical and valid reasons why you believe in a certain way on this topic.
*Iqbal it must feel nice to be able to put 'laugh' in a Qur'an search engine and copy paste the verses but let's stick to the topic.. *
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I wasn't aware that you had sole rights to search engines for your own colorised and emboldened Qur'anic citations. Is this the pot calling the kettle black?
Please shed some more light, why you think the laws as prescribed in Quran and Sunnah should still be applied today? I understand from your post, that there were those in the time of Prophet Muhammad (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) and earlier prophets (Allaih e Salaam) who mocked him and refused to believe his message. This is fine. However the argument I am looking forward to is why are the punishments and jurisprudence decided at that time should be followed hundreds of years later.
PA, for simplicity’s sake, you can just focus on Quran. Just as an example, if Quran says that punishment for adultery is “flogging” (24:2), why should that punishment be applied today? Why shouldn’t jurisprudence be constantly updated to keep them in sync with requirements of modern time?
it isnt the laws that need changing but how we implement them..
Islam has given provisos to deal with new situations - i.e. - look to the quran and the sunnah for guidance and then look to Alims( and i mean real alims) then use your common sense.
but if we are talking about laws that are clear cut and explicit then no u can't /shouldnt change them..the laws were put in place to give a just society...if everyone is commiting adultery then abondan the law?
if everyone is stealing then make stealing legal? if everyone is taking alcahol then make that ok??
Islam is also about submission to the will of God-if u make that into submission to the will of what is in vogue then y claim to follow Islam? I am not saying this from the angle of 'i follow piously'..i am saying i break the laws but it doesnt mean i want the laws to change!!
..if u r talking about the implementation of the punishments for breaking the law..then remmber guilt has to be proven rigourously..u cannot just apply punishments on any old witnessses say so
and there r cases where the Calihps themselves adapted punishments because it wasn't suitable or fitting in with the spirit of the law. i vaguely remmber something about a man who wasnt able to pay a tax because he was too poor and Umr Rd abondoned the tax because it wasnt appropriate to tax someoen who couldnt afford to eat let alone pay the tax.
It goes back to implementation of Islamic laws and the Islamic spirit, compassion, just societies
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*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Here’s my philosophical view.
If you believe that God made man (although, it’s debatable), then you should have some faith in your God that he made man who is capable of making laws to govern himself. If he wanted his own old and antiquated laws to be followed by man, without questioning the validity of such laws, he (God) would have made monkeys who are pretty good at doing what you tell them to.
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*Originally posted by Serendipiti: *
..if u r talking about the implementation of the punishments for breaking the law..then remmber guilt has to be proven rigourously..u cannot just apply punishments on any old witnessses say so
and there r cases where the Calihps themselves adapted punishments because it wasn't suitable or fitting in with the spirit of the law. i vaguely remmber something about a man who wasnt able to pay a tax because he was too poor and Umr Rd abondoned the tax because it wasnt appropriate to tax someoen who couldnt afford to eat let alone pay the tax.
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The tax was not abandoned the punishment was layed of because the right of the man was not given i.e food
Allahs laws are applicable at all times be it 1400 years ago or today or 1400 years from now.
What you consider barbaric others consider justice and most importantly regardless of what you or i think. It is ensuring allahs laws are applied.
We do not refer to the human mind in terms of justice as they are biased and as seen in western judicial systems how many cases where people spent 20 years for a crime they did’nt commit or person executed again for crime they never commit that is the real barbaric system!
In islam if there is doubt then throw it out. A person will only be punished if for sure he committed the offence.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
It is a very valid argument in the light of many man-made laws that have infiltrated Muslim 'Sharia' today.
It's time now to go back and revise the whole system and keep only laws sanctioned by Allah and summarily reject anything added later.
God's system is perfect, so is His religion.. but the later additions to it have made Muslims the laughing stock of the world.
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agreed! the Laws as set out by Allah in the Quran are universal......no need and no authority to change them.....but the later additions (mostly in the form of extra-quranic sources) should be changed if not disgarded altogether......because they are man-made and therefor invariably influenced by several factors one of which is the time when they were made.
I am sorry, I was away for a couple of days so didn't follow up with the discussion.
Just to refresh, while as a muslim, I understand that Quran is God's words and hence we, as muslims have no authority or need to change any of its commandments, I am asking for your intelligent responses which explain, why as intelligent muslims and human beings you absolutely feel that all punishments prescribed in Quran are as relevant today as they were 1400 years ago. Formulate your answer as you would give it to a non-muslim and a non-believer.
Chaltahai, instead of one-liner questions which go off on tangents why don't you explain your thought-process, on the whole topic and not just focusing a specific crime. In another thread, you had said:
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Actually my dear savant...this is the basic problem. People using or misusing 1200 yr old books as their basis for forming laws. The degree of punishment (after all that is what's going to the crux of the argument on eihter side. Whether Allah said to gently stroke the blasphemor or whether to drag his body across the pind only after the wild dogs have had their fill) is no tthe issue. It is whether religous scripture should be the basis of common sensical law making.
This is your opportunity to explain what you meant.
i would have thought anyone who just contemplates for a few moments and thinks with all the corruption they currently live in with society in such disaray where you have to have around 15 locks on your door, always looking over your back and some even carrying weapons for protection.
The islamic punishments are a detterent to any would be criminal. Can you imagine a theif would think twice if not 3 times about stealing something when at the back of his mind he is thinking do i really like my hand oh yes i do, then i best not even try and steal whatever he intended to steal.
Also another example with people commiting adultry and fornication with the thought of lashing or death if caught these people will think twice about such actions.
Also on top of the punishments in this socity they would suffer also the punishment in the herafter is even worse so this makes people think very carefully about there actions. It is clear the islamic system and in this topic the islamic justice system is valid for all times ameen!
i think that this is such a stupid topic it shouldnt even be discussed!!
i mean have u not read the Quran faisal?
not even the translation? or r u simply a westerner?
Allah subhana wata'llah has said that we shuld call onto Allah for help and the Quran and the sunnah have all solutions for mankinds problems no matter era u r from!! if the Quran was just for the Prohet's peace be upon him time then we really wuldnt need to be muslims would we?
Allah subhana wataa'llah has also said that those who throw the Quran behind their backs, for them will be a great torment. these people being the disbelievers.
today we are following man made laws, unfortunately, and have u seen the state of society? there is so much corruption poverty abuse all over the world. also man will just change laws to suit his/her needs whther they benefit others or not, wheras Allah subhana wata a'llah has provided us with his certain laws whihc will benefit the whole of mankind-Inshallah.
No need to revise/discard Quranic Law but there is a definite need to revise/discard/update the UNDERSTANDING of people who seek to implement or dish out their own interpretation of this law.
I believe its a tragedy to have Hudood Laws in a country which was established on a fairly secular grounds, espescially when they are mutilated and mixed in with remnents of British Raj Judiciary. It opens gate for extensive misuse of law.
A prime example of this misuse has been seen time again in rape cases. Hudood Law is wrongly applied and the victim stands to be accused of adultry. For goodness case, if rape can't be proved/disproved, you CANNOT in any circumstances aaply the adultry laws to the same case. I'm probably not making much sense here but I hope you the outline.