[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
And what does the Qur'an say should be done with the other remaining half?
[/QUOTE]
gupguppy Brother in islam, These questions have been asked to PA at several ocasions. But just like he asked you to open up a new thread and stuff like that; he will never give you a straight answer; take my word on it. He is Munkarin-e-Hadiath and will never EVER accept the fact that Sunnah is as important as quran.
-Salman
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
And what does the Qur'an say should be done with the other remaining half?
[/QUOTE]
these are only limits prescribed by Allah.. there is a stated portion for those left behind.. these limits aren't a recipe to evenly divide the property to the last penny..
Other relatives, orphans and needy present at the time of division can be given something out of the rest.
As for you Mr. Salman "Throat-Slasher" NY.. although the q's were off topic i attempted to answer them to the best of my understanding so i guess u can follow the two step process.
At least I aint Munkarin-e-Hadiath like you. But yes I do find the person should be killed as a VERY LAST resort if he/she does not stop cursing/disrespecting Prophet mohammad :saw:. If you have a problem with it.. then I feel sorry for your soul.
See you in a thread " Punishment of Munkarin-e-hadiath".
-Salman
Reply:
Dear wonderful Readers,
Assalam-ale- kum,
Please note:
Very simple as follows:
For keeping cleanliness , and for doing taharat, People at the time of RASOUL(P) had certain facities only; do you agree?
If yes let us note what facilities they had:-
No toilets, no taps, no paka floors, no cemented homes, etc etc
So they used to pass stool, and urinate in open areas and they used to put sand on it. I do not know I am just guessing. Do you know how many bacteria(pathogenic) a human being passes every day (400,000,000) per time he/she passes stool.
Now can you just think ,visualize the smell , the NAJASSAT all over there.
So He(P) used to keep his DOHTI knee high. Would you also do the same to keep Thaharat now in this technical environment, where you have automatic taps, beautiful toilets, nice dresses to put on.
So my ISTADLAL is that they used to do thaharat to the best of their abilities,in their environment .Please note they were unable to do any better. Where as we can do cleanliness and thaharat in our environment. We are lucky people, We are born in high technological societies.Or you feel we should do thaharat in the way of HIS ENVIRONMENT. If yes, so you are not thankful to GOD FOR HIS NAEMATS- his blessing on you, and it is a sin, that is why you want to revert. It is very very dogmatic thinking. It is too easy to understand with this example that all those SUNNATE which are related to general appearance or general way of thier lives are not correct to be taken as SUNNATS .
We should think about the reasons, why he used to do this or that, THe reason of doing certain acts are and were sunnat. Becase what ever he (P) used to do were to show the muslims of that time the way aayate qurani can be implemented in daily lives.
So sunnat is cleanliness, taharat, beautifying one self, remember cleanliness includes all possible thing that are included in cleanliness.
All the above sunnats that I have written have been asked by QURAN( KALAME ELLAHE), to us to follow; so one can implement these QURANI AAYATS' the way one can do to the best of his abilities in the environment he is living.
So since raisors are invented, you would beautify the beard, as HE( P) used to beautify his beard to the best possible way He(P) could do in his environment, that is to cut straight , he used to catch hold of his beard and cut one fist long. Other than this was not possible in his environment. (Do not forget wastage of time is also taken as a bad thing).
So we follow the sunnate Rasoul(P) more than any body else but we do not go on appearance , we go on reason to have that appearance; since reason to have that appearance was due to the fact that HE(P) used to show the implementation of AAYATE QURANIS ; this is what and why GOD has send him. So he was doing his alloted job to the best, in the best possible way in the environment he was in.
So my argument is that every one at that time was right ,our moullans' do not follow things well; so let me throw light , that in our high tech. environment, implementations of those aayats should be carried out to the best of our abilities by using all the possible means of our environment. Kindly do not revert to illetrate , back ward environment to implement the sunnate Rasoul.
would you travel on camel now, would you not use automatic taps, would you not use non alcoholic dyes to beautify your hair, cut your beard using raisor-not necessorily clean but one can make stylish beard etc etc
If still some one can not follow that sunnat Rasoul(P) is not his appearance it is reason why he had that appearance. Then I would understand that it is none of your fault, it is due to the fact, that never ever any of the moullana(from any firqa from arab to ajam) )of whole world had/has thought of it . So it would take some time, to fix my opinion in your and others mind. New ideas seem weird, not easy to digest, except to whom GOD gives HIDAYAT, would try and then understand. Khuda Hafiz WAssalam Ele kum sokoon
Dear salmanNy,
Please read my reply and find where I am wrong.? Be cool and peaceful while reading. You can take me for granted, a weak believer, so would you not be able to explain it to me well. Would you prove your point of view to a non believers also with the books you believe in. But you know they give two ----for your books your believe -----Regards Sokoon
Re: Is sunnate rasoul is only to follow his appearance----
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
DEAR READERS,
ASSALAM-AALE-KUM,
I DO NOT FOLLOW THIS, THAT ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WE CAN FOLLOW WITH SIMPLE LOGIC AND QURANI AAYAT WE KEEP ON TRYING TO USE THE AQAL OF SOME OLD WRITTERS. DEFINETELY THEY HAD WRITTEN THOSE BOOKS TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITIES.
AND FOR SURE THE MAN IN THIS TIME, WITH SO MUCH ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION, SAY EXPLORING ARZ- O-SAMA, BEING MORE TECHNECAL ADVANCE, IS MILLIONS TIME MORE INTELLIGENT THAN PEOPLE AT THOSE DAYS OF PROPHET(p).I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT HIM (P)SINCE HE HAD BEEN GIVEN EDUCATION OF ALL KINDS BY GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF.
SO IF ONE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT SUNNAT-E-RASOUL AND SAHABA AND HIS WIVES WAS NOT ABOUT APPEARANCE AT ALL. OTHERWISE IT IS OK WHAT 99.9% MOULLANAS SAY.
1)KEEP DOHJTEE TOE HIGH
2)KEEP BEARD A FIST LONG
3) MEN AND WOMEN TO BE IN PARDA; MEN SHOULD WEAR 40YDS CLOTH PIECE AND LADIES SHOULD WEAR JALLABEYA
PLEASE NOTE; ARABS WERE VERY BACK WARD, THEY NEVER HAD NEEDLES AT THAT TIMES OTHER COUNTRIES PROBABLY HAD.
They never had automatic taps, cemented wash rooms and toilets. They used to **** and urinate in grounds and there only they had to wash themselves with water which they used to pour . So they used to keep their toes open to safe themselves from NAJASAT of water droplets.
So the sunnat is to keep your self PAK,Tahir, not raising Pajama or trouser high above toes.
AND Regatrding ladies the JALLABEYA OF TODAY'S ARAB HAS BEEN CHANGED WITH THE DISCOVERY OF STITCHING MACHINES. IT USED TO BE A PIECE OF CLOTH 3YDS OR SO AND AFTER MAKING IT DOUBLE LADIES USED TO TIE IT FROM BACK OF THE WAIST TO FRONT ON CHEST. AND ONE LAYER OF THAT THEY used TO BRING FROM BEHIND ON HEAD.
SINCE SOME OF THE WIVES OF RASOUL WERE YOUNG PRETTY AND VERY HEALTHY. RASOUL HAD ASKED THEM TO PULL THE SAME JALLABEYA FROM HEAD DOWN TO COVER THEIR CHEST flesh, IT WAS AIMED TO COVER THEIR BREASTS flesh WHICH WAS NOTICEABLE EVEN UNDERNECK. ALSO TO BRING THE SAME CLOTH ON CHEST THERE WAS NO OTHER POSSIBLE, PATH. THAT IS WHY IT HAD BECOME LIKE KHONGAT.
AGAIN;
THE SUNNAT IS TO COVER even opened neck area of ladies till underneck. Ladies are not allowed to wear low neck dress they must cover it. Because low neck dress is nakedness and not parda--hijjab. And in our dress we can wear the small neck open dress easily. we already have facility in our Pakistani dress code.
Bringing jallabeya was not meant to cover face at all. OTHERWISE GOD WOULD HAVE NOT SAID FOR LADIES WHO ARE OLD THEY MAY OR MAY NOT USE IT.
Also on Hajj which is the biggest and the hardest ARKANE DIN it is asked to keep the face opened, it is not allowed to cover the face. please, do note after completion of Hajj a person is sinless , just as newly born baby. So keeping face open if is so important and such a
great sin, such a great thing than we are doing partly sin in Hajj and should not be called as 100% sinless after hajj.
Also We do not change our principles.How do you think God's principles are so weak can not fit all the time although he proclaims and our Rasoul proclaims Quran is for AZAL TILL ABAD -a law for muslims.
The fact is Ahadeez have been tistorted and only about Hajj we have left with correct information .So covering face of a lady is not seems to receive approval from my brain.
SO PLEASE NOTE IT IS NOT APPEARANCE TO BE TAKEN AS SUNNAT IT IS SUBJECT (MAQSSAD) WHICH IS TO BE TAKEN AS SUNNAT. DEEDS, NEYAT, MANNERS ETC ETC.
NOW SINCE WE HAVE STITCHED DRESSES WE COVER TILL NECK AND USE DOPATA. IT IS 100% HEJJAB OR PERDA SAME IS TRUE FOR MEN THEIR DRESS CODE IS 100% PERDA, TOO.
THE AIM TO KEEP BEARD ONE FIST LONG WAS TO CUT IT STRAIGHT, AND TO LOOK HANDSOME, CLEAN,AS THERE IS AN AAYAT
**
ALLA HO JAMIL AND YO HUB UL JAMAL AND ANOTHER 50% EMAN IS TAHARAT THAT IS CLEANLINESS
ALSO THERE IS AN AAYAT THAT GO TO CHINA TO EDUCATE YOUR SELF AND DO TAKHSEAR OF ARZ-O-SAMA. **
Assalam u alaikum
Mohtarama Sokoon Saheba
JahaN tak mera khayal hai above quotations are not from Quraan kareem but from Hadeeth shareef.
Just to keep the record straight.
wassalam
Mirza ruswa,
Assalam ale kum,
Thank you so much.
Please note another example:
For adultration. Ahadeez ask to bring witnesses of 4 men, or if ladies are to give witness two ladies are equal to one man witness.
These witnesses were to make sure that the person is really sinner.
But in todays environment which is so much technically advanced.
To make sure about the sinner DNA test is carried out.
How come we still can bring the above witnesses of men and women.Todays cemented walls!!!who can let any one know about what are they doing in four wall?
So most of the old sayings can not be implemented today, as it is. We have to see the real reason behind the action of those days. And then we must change those acts to some thing else according to the availability of the facilities. We can not stay stuck in the past; we must move ahead.
Many people on forum and otherwise are very quick to pass fatwas. She is munkir of ahadeez. I am not. But one must see all aspects.
Regards Sokoon
How do you decide what can and cannot be implemented anymore. How did you come up with ‘most of the old sayings cannot be implemented today’. Do you think Allah :swt: didnt know about the future technological advancements. Islam is not so rigid, it allows for all circumstances and as long as something is not explcitly prohibited, it is allowed.
The example you gave about Adultery is wrong, the reason it is hard to prove is so that the severe punishment is rarely carried out and the sinner is allowed to repent. If you started using DNA so many people would end up being stoned to death or lashed.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *
The example you gave about Adultery is wrong, the reason it is hard to prove is so that the severe punishment is rarely carried out and the sinner is allowed to repent. If you started using DNA so many people would end up being stoned to death or lashed.
[/QUOTE]
The above example is also for rape- to prove a rape in the court of law, you must provide two practicing male muslims as witnesses. If you have doubts about their character, their statement is discounted. If you cannot, the woman is guilty by default - at least this is what the hudood ordinance interpretation is in Pakistan !! So in todays world, you will have to rape a poor girl by GT road in full view of the public passers-by in order to get prosecuted for this heinous crime.
I cannot believe you are defending such an unjust law. God gave man a brain to differentiate between right and wrong and I cannot accept this interpetation. I am not sure what it says in the Quran, this is just my understanding of the current law.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khattana: *
The above example is also for rape- to prove a rape in the court of law, you must provide two practicing male muslims as witnesses. If you have doubts about their character, their statement is discounted. If you cannot, the woman is guilty by default - at least this is what the hudood ordinance interpretation is in Pakistan !! So in todays world, you will have to rape a poor girl by GT road in full view of the public passers-by in order to get prosecuted for this heinous crime.
I cannot believe you are defending such an unjust law. God gave man a brain to differentiate between right and wrong and I cannot accept this interpetation. I am not sure what it says in the Quran, this is just my understanding of the current law.
[/QUOTE]
What evidence do you have that the above applies to rape also?
Please read carefully, there is a difference between Adultery and Rape. You only need 4 witnesses (a unlikely prospect) or a confession for Adultery/Fornication according to the Quran.
Rape is a completely different crime. There is no evidence that witnesse are needed for rape or any other violent crime for that matter. Its upto the countries to decide what sort of circumstantial evidence can be used.
The Hudud Laws as they currently stand are not totally Islamic, and have been criticised by many.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *
What evidence do you have that the above applies to rape also?
Please read carefully, there is a difference between Adultery and Rape. You only need 4 witnesses (a unlikely prospect) or a confession for Adultery/Fornication according to the Quran.
Rape is a completely different crime. There is no evidence that witnesse are needed for rape or any other violent crime for that matter. Its upto the countries to decide what sort of circumstantial evidence can be used.
The Hudud Laws as they currently stand are not totally Islamic, and have been criticised by many.
[/QUOTE]
As I said I have no references to the quran or hadith. But this is our modern day interpretation in pakistan and saudi etc. There are many women in jail cuz they could not prove that they were raped.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Dear armughal and Islamabad,
Assalam alei kum,
Waqaei quon na hum sub isshe halat mei rahein jasey ka hein.
lakir ka faqir--- no need of using brain at all.
NA SHOOKRAY; GOD GAVE EACH AND EVERY ONE BRAIN, BUT WE WOULD NOT EVEN TRY TO USE IT; TYPICAL OF PAKISTANI EDUCATION SYSTEM; RATA LAGA LO KUCH KAM AEAY, implement hoe paei ya na ho paey degree tu hasil kar lei. sub han allah; kuch YAD RAHEY YA NA RAHEY.
Do not forget most of the time either jews or christians have ruled us and they did have reprinted the books. WAlla ho allam bis sawab, there is every possibility that it is written in that FAL:ANA FALANA said this but he never did say thaT .so why not to fix thing on our AQAL KEY KASOUTE PER BEH.KEYA BURAEI HAI ISMEI.
So is not correct to put your intelligence also along with them (ahadeez)until it satisfies you. Infact some of those does not satisfy me. Instead of helping some one like me you peope just ----Do not you believe you are answerable personally infront of GOD ;at that time would you say I read it so , or some one told me this .No so what is harm in trying to undeerstand things yourselves. I wanted that you would be out there and would discuss them instead you people are doing the same as old kind of rusted people. Bye Bye Sokoon
Regarding stitiched dress I have done research on it , I have personally met arabic people in the world. Also stitched dresses were there in some countries then but not in arabs. By the way some arabic countries till date can not make needles or just simple table sal; they eat meals without salt if import is delayed.You must believe it. It used to be pieces of clothes which they used to tie or fix like dress. Jew had --but not arabs. Do not you know if GOD SAYS YA ARAB UL ARAB.--what it means, do not , you know, that they were the most uncivilized ,uncultured unpractical ,ones, they used to even burry their girls. I am not saying now. Ofcourse now you have taught them quite a lot, thanks to you all.
[/QUOTE]
Sokoon, Although some of the words and phrases(don't know the lingo, arabic??) you use are alien to me but I think you are the most sensible Muslim in this forum so far and you definitly need support, keep it up mate.
Reply to Sher,
Dear Sher,
Assalam ale kum,
Thanks for such a nice comment. It would take 20 years for other moullana kind of persons to understand my philosophy of AHADEEZ written in totally different environment, 1400 years before.
Two of the Geo tv sessions on ALIF programs were taken from my topic. And debators were quite learned men, who were discussing it. The topic was "can we interpret old saying that is ahadeez according to todays environment?" The leading discussioner were supporting my way of thinking. We all muslims have to move ahead. We can not stay stuck in 1400 years old sayings. Regards
Sokoon
Check out this website:
Basically it raises the point that we should disregard hadith as they have been tampered with. Use the quran alone in understanding islam.
I do not necessarilly agree with the notion- but it does present an alternative view point.
^^ that website is run by some person called Rashad Khalifa, who came up with some theory about number 19 and the Quran.
To do this he had to remove ‘two false verses’ from the Quran. And I think that he claimed to be some prophet or something.
That is more than enough to know that the person cannot be trusted, and is considered outside the fold of islam.
You can read more about them here
Query?
Dear Readers, specially Mr.M,
Assalam ale kum,
I do not see my compatibility, of discussion with some one who wants to remove some verses of Quran.Lahol Willa Quoatta illa Billah
I am a pure muslim, I know Ali Abne Abe Talib was not happy of khulaffas to collect the AAYate Qurani from different people who had only listen to Prophet Mohammed(pbuh).Though every one knew that:
The whole Quran was present at the home of Fatima Zahra (daughter of Prophet Mohammed and Wife of Ali Ibne Abe Talib);It was in his Prophet(P) home with Fatima Zahra, because our Rasoul(pbuh) was an exampilary father too, he had to show to muslim ummah , how one should give training (TARBEYAT) to your children, so there was even shane Nazoul of every Aayat at their home).
But !!! there is a big but---- and :
After collecting Qurane Majeed when Ottman (R) came to the house of Fatima and he asked the opinion of Hazrat Ali about the quran( he had brought to show him),
What would you say about the Quran I have collected.
He replied :"It is sufficient for those who have wisdom and intelligence."
He did not say any thing but the above AAyate Qurani.
When such a person who is renowned to be very intelligent and-----do you know he had so much Karamat that there are religions who took him as GOD and what not????
So as all FERQAS of muslims believe in him enough, that no one yet could ever dear to say anything against him.
I think our Quran is perfect. It is accepted by all who believe in Quran as GOD'S book as it is. No one dears to say any thing against it. It is called as BAYASE USMANI.
So do I, can not think or understand myself as muslim if it ever occur to my brain that some Aayate Qurani to be removed.
Whole Quran is a law from the beginning of the world and would stay till the end of the world.
This is another thing what I say: I only say about Ahadeez, which are written by so many people of old days. And many can not be implemented in todays environment, like old arabs stone age types methods.
So I say figurative way of taking the sunnats, appearence should not be taken as Hadeez, we must take its reason behind, that why is this Hadeez so.
For eample cutting hands of a thief is a hadeez. So in Hadeez stress is not on cutting hands, it is to represent to the people how bad is stealing.
So sunnat is do not steal what ever happens.
Exactly, Like if you do back bitting it is like eating your dead brothers meat.
Does anyone eats it???no! every one understands it is too bad to do bad bitting.
I talk about sunnat is not eating dead brother's meat, or cutting hands . Sunnate Rasoul(P) is not to back bite, no one should steal.
These sunnats are at first place for the rulers to set the social environment of this kind, that no one need to steal, inform, educate people not back bite, as it causes FASAD.
Regarding punishment one must fix according to todays environments. They had fixed according to their environment.
But the unfortunate thing is, people do not want to think,nor they try to understand my point of view, as I am the first in the whole muslim ummah to say so.
Our all muslims are very good people. As I have given totally new philosophy to reunderstand each Hadeez's reason for those figurative punishments; and those reasons are hadeez. Not the only punishments declarations. It would take time for people to agree. It does not disappoint me.
Wassalam sokoon
Re: Reply to Sher,
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Dear Sher,
Assalam ale kum,
Thanks for such a nice comment. It would take 20 years for other moullana kind of persons to understand my philosophy of AHADEEZ written in totally different environment, 1400 years before.
Two of the Geo tv sessions on ALIF programs were taken from my topic. And debators were quite learned men, who were discussing it. The topic was "can we interpret old saying that is ahadeez according to todays environment?" The leading discussioner were supporting my way of thinking. We all muslims have to move ahead. We can not stay stuck in 1400 years old sayings. Regards
Sokoon
[/QUOTE]
you are so simple my sister...
Do you understand how media manipulates thinking. Let me explain.. Geo Tv may bring some group of so called scholars and start a debate. They may make one person sound as if he for the issue and the otehr against it. Both talk and they make the point they want to be believed upon more clear by bringing a person who can talk better. A person who knows how to talk may make us feel that he is right, even if he is wrong and vice versa. When is our nation going to wake up.
You are right :k:
Most sensible person posting here at the moment…the initial post was excellent.
Re: Query?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
For eample cutting hands of a thief is a hadeez.
[/QUOTE]
You might want to read the Qur'an before you post next time...
"And for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise." (Qur'an 5:38)
Re: Re: Query?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
You might want to read the Qur'an before you post next time...
"And for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise." (Qur'an 5:38)
[/QUOTE]
If taken literally and implemented, as muslim extremists would love to, Half the muslim world would have had their hands chopped off. besides, it only show that God is a cruel tyrant(if quran is a word of God) who loves to torture human beings. Like sokoon said, it might have been the only way to control people 1400 years ago but can not be used in todays environment. Quran needs to be reviewed.