Are you talking of 90/91?
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*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Are you talking of 90/91?
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No Zaavia he is refering to the recent UN resolution 1441
Am I reading this correctly...is MR. Zaavia advocating that NS is braver then Musharraf.... lets see....hmmm.... Musharraf...fought two wars...has a distinguished military career...was a member of SSG...(Crack Commandoes)....NS.... I'm sorry but can't find any bravery....perhaps locking up his female cousins over property dispute is a sign of bravery....or pissing in the pants when the military stormed PTV....no I know why he's brave.... when the first chance he got he ran from Pakistan like a little girl....... THAts it everyone must agree that looking at past record.... NS is definetly much more braver.... :-)
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*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Badsha, I cant say about the 'brave' career of Musharraf. What I can see is how is acting post 911, begging India for negotiations at all levels, especially when the Indian forces were mobilized. And now his current position during the Iraq crisis. These events are really a testimony to his bravery.
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One can also give a spin and say Indians are begging to stop cross border spanking..... Its the job of spin masters to give it a spin! after mobilizing 1 million troops did they achieve their objectives.... nada, zero zilch....
For your eyes only...
India Wrestles with Nuclear Arms Paradox
Mon January 13, 2003 05:20 AM ET
By Sanjeev Miglani
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Nearly five years after India and Pakistan became nuclear powers, New Delhi is finally coming to terms with what that status means -- the threat of a Pakistani first strike has neutralized its conventional superiority.
Analysts say last year's inconclusive military standoff between the neighbors highlighted what many had feared when the two conducted tit-for-tat nuclear tests in 1998, that India would no longer dare go to war with Pakistan.
"India has become a victim of nuclear blackmail," said C. Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor at The Hindu newspaper.
So, unable to go back, India is copying the example of the United States and the former Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War, building its nuclear deterrent to the point of mutually assured destruction so that neither side would dare go nuclear.
It is because of Pakistanis (and Guppies here) are opposed to war with Iraq on some non-existant “Islamic Unity” grounds, it is all a farce. If we choose according to our national interest–Iraq is not a friendly country and never has been, it has attempted to destbilize us and played the game with our arch enemy. So should we vote yes? Ofcourse! What’s the Mush’s dilemma? Folks like you and others. Although well meaning and kind, still denying the realities of geopolitics, a pressuring the government.
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*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Are you talking of 90/91?
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No I am talking about UN Resolution 1441 passed in November 2002 on Iraq. Do you know what Syria said it would vote right upto the vote, and how it actual voted? And a piece of advice, please check out all your facts before you make any allegations or assumptions becuase you have been horribly exposed in this thread. :)
What after 9/11 did Musharraf do wrong... he went with the will of the international community.... I really am having a hard time understanding.... could you actually tell me which policy he made which makes him cowardely..... so that I can argue.....
RF, I agree that the islamic unity isnt a viable theory these days, and personally i dont like saddam and company, BUT I consider it more in Pakistan's interests to oppose the attack as compared to supporting it. As it would most certainly come to haunt Pakistan in the future.
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
It is because of Pakistanis (and Guppies here) are opposed to war with Iraq on some non-existant "Islamic Unity" grounds, it is all a farce. If we choose according to our national interest--Iraq is not a friendly country and never has been, it has attempted to destbilize us and played the game with our arch enemy. So should we vote yes? Ofcourse! What's the Mush's dilemma? Folks like you and others. Although well meaning and kind, still denying the realities of geopolitics, a pressuring the government.
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*Originally posted by zaavia: *
RF, I agree that the islamic unity isnt a viable theory these days, and personally i dont like saddam and company, BUT I consider it more in Pakistan's interests to oppose the attack as compared to supporting it. As it would most certainly come to haunt Pakistan in the future.
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I agree with you on this but you see Pak is not in a position to go against the masters. Especially after what our esteemed politicians have done to our country. May be you should go back to 1999 when there were discussions about Paks bankruptcy. And trust me a bankrupt Pak is 100 times worse then Iraq and Korea put together. It will take down the whole region 1000 miles in all directions.
so .. if Musharraf has been such a smart & courageous leader [I doubt if he even knows what it takes to be a courageous leader] then ... what has Pakistan earned of any real significance under his 'able leadership' since 9/11?
[li] What major concessions did he win from US and EU viz-a-viz Kashmir, besides being forced to close down training camps and cutting down on infiltration, all for the comfort of India??
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[li] Where's been that much talked & much hybed economic package that we kept on hearing from him and his cronies after he bent over backward and handed over the keys of entire country to Junior?
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[li] How much foreing debt he was able to get written off that could had provided much needed breathing space for Pak economy?
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[li] How much military assistance he was able to secure from US for all his 'yours truly' spineless bending over backward attitude to his masters in the White House?? All he was able to secure were few spare parts and some wireless sets and even that would be solely used along borders to act as watchman. So far, in about year & half, all we've heard is the revival of US-Pak Defence consultative group which has done nothing practically for the benefit of Pakistan except meeting over a coffee session for some chit chat. For all the pleading he did infront of Junior, Musharraf couldn't even secure the release of F-16s. While India was able to secure high tech radars and other military hardware besides getting the sanctions removed for the export of dual purpose techonolgy, all we've got so far are few verbal accolades for "Pakistan's role in war against terrorism". Those who sell themselves cheap, thats all they deserve and thats the limit they can extract any benefits from their masters ... few verbal appraises and the mention of country's name, thats enuf to make Musharraf and his spineless bunch of generals go drooling all over!!
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Infact Musharraf has demostrated the worst and most spineless stint of leadership among all the bunch that have ruled Pakistan. So far he hasn't been able to stand even a bit of pressure and hasn't displayed even an iota of self-respect, dignity and strenght of character for himself or for country's sake. Without securing any significant concessions for the country, he's sold himself real cheap at the very first oppurtunity that has come his ways.
For instance, take the case of Kashmir - how cowardly he backed down and peformed the "Sir, yes Sir" turnaround. Now the Kashmir issue has been put on back burner for all practical reasons, and if there's any Kashmir issue around, its the infiltration from Pakistan' side and Pakistan's hand in terrorit activities in occpied Kashmir, this is how he hes dealt with Kashmir situation so far. Had he played his cards with some guts & courage, he could have secured lot more from US in terms of Kashmir and could had easily forced a solution on India but then again, it takes some courage and self-respect. Slave-minded defeated souls like him are only concerned about securing his own good future instead of doing anything good for the country.
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It's easy to criticise Mushara ... he's committed quite a few major blunders. But atleast he has held Pakistan up in one piece through a very crucial period. With the nuclear capability, at least from the Indian and global view, a Pakistan under a dictatorial control is better than under dubious religious control.
As stated earlier, Pakistan has also been compensated already to the extent of about 700MM in addition to debt rescheduling - without the latter, there could've been economic chaos!
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*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
It's easy to criticise Mushara ... he's committed quite a few major blunders. But atleast he has held Pakistan up in one piece through a very crucial period. With the nuclear capability, at least from the Indian and global view, a Pakistan under a dictatorial control is better than under dubious religious control.
As stated earlier, Pakistan has also been compensated already to the extent of about 700MM in addition to debt rescheduling - without the latter, there could've been economic chaos!
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Musharraf is hanging by only one thread-Al Qaeda and Afghanistan. once these r sorted out, pakistan will pay if it continues its present policies.
Munna.
How? Sorting out Al Qaeda and Afganistan change nothing to the nuclear capability - whether weaponized or dirty. That's why we need stable government in Islamabad and to be in control of the said material. Extremists are not going to disappear overnight and as long as they remain we all need to watch out and prevent nukes falling into their hands.
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*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
How? Sorting out Al Qaeda and Afganistan change nothing to the nuclear capability - whether weaponized or dirty. That's why we need stable government in Islamabad and to be in control of the said material. Extremists are not going to disappear overnight and as long as they remain we all need to watch out and prevent nukes falling into their hands.
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the economic assistance will stop when al qaeda and Afghanistan are solved. then we can trust our beloved pakistans to run away with that great economy of theirs.
Munna.
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*Originally posted by munnabhai: *
the economic assistance will stop when al qaeda and Afghanistan are solved. then we can trust our beloved pakistans to run away with that great economy of theirs.
Munna.
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You should worry abouth the economy where half billion bhokas go hungry every day... Don't worry about bad pakis we can manage.....