i woder what pak is getting for its loyalty to its master usa
pakistan often bullied by usa of threat of declaring a terrorist state?
sanctions imposed
no support on kashmir issue
at least you could have asked for some alms ( read aid) the turkey way?
isnt pakistan doing a thankless job
or do you expect some toughness from the pakistani regime
I dont think that the Pakistani regime can be tough...
The country which has nukes, and cant decide how to vote in the UNSC, you can judge the mental toughness of its leadership...
Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by kabir: *
i woder what pak is getting for its loyalty to its master usa
pakistan often bullied by usa of threat of declaring a terrorist state?
sanctions imposed
no support on kashmir issue
at least you could have asked for some alms ( read aid) the turkey way?
isnt pakistan doing a thankless job
or do you expect some toughness from the pakistani regime
[/QUOTE]
indeed, pakistan is doing a thankless job. pakistan in fact doesn't seem to deserve any thanks. it was the creator of taliban. it was the fountainhead of fundamentalism along with saudi. it assisted taliban even as it had pledged its support to us. its policy on kashmir is flawed. how can it expect to get foreign supprt on that. it is getting aid from the western powers(though not as substantial as turkey).
Munna.
Re: Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by munnabhai: *
indeed, pakistan is doing a thankless job. pakistan in fact doesn't seem to deserve any thanks. it was the creator of taliban. it was the fountainhead of fundamentalism along with saudi. it assisted taliban even as it had pledged its support to us. its policy on kashmir is flawed. how can it expect to get foreign supprt on that. it is getting aid from the western powers(though not as substantial as turkey).
Munna.
[/QUOTE]
HOw was the Taliban created....lets give you a brief background...it was created during BB's era...a person who wouldn't even visit the bathroom without clear instructions from washington.... and as soon as taliban was in power the american companies were rallying around them to make the pipeline.... now.... the fundamentalism....it shows how little you know...the American;s were setting up these madrassahs during the Afghan Jihad.... to find cannon fodder...... you can't just start something and walk away hoping that everything will just go away.... how is the Kashmir policy flawed.... asking for the most basic of rights of people is wrong.. is that what your trying to argue?
Re: Re: Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *
HOw was the Taliban created....lets give you a brief background...it was created during BB's era...a person who wouldn't even visit the bathroom without clear instructions from washington.... and as soon as taliban was in power the american companies were rallying around them to make the pipeline.... now.... the fundamentalism....it shows how little you know...the American;s were setting up these madrassahs during the Afghan Jihad.... to find cannon fodder...... you can't just start something and walk away hoping that everything will just go away.... how is the Kashmir policy flawed.... asking for the most basic of rights of people is wrong.. is that what your trying to argue?
[/QUOTE]
it is well known that the leaders of taliban were educated in pakistani madrassahs. if us set up these in your country, it is u who r at fault. u should not have let them start madrassas. it was after all your country where they set up the madrassas.it was after all your people who got killed in the interests of not pakistan but the united states. assisting th us for the sake of ideology is fine. but sacrificing long term interests for short term gains is stupidity. american policy was wrong. no doubt. but u also committed mistakes.
that the american companies licked taliban's shoes is also nothing new. they r known to do anything for the sake of their businesses. they are known to violate sanctions laid down by their own country.
refer to the threads in the kashmir section of this forum for discussion on the kashmir policy.
Munna.
Re: Re: Re: Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by munnabhai: *
it is well known that the leaders of taliban were educated in pakistani madrassahs. if us set up these in your country, it is u who r at fault. u should not have let them start madrassas. it was after all your country where they set up the madrassas.it was after all your people who got killed in the interests of not pakistan but the united states. assisting th us for the sake of ideology is fine. but sacrificing long term interests for short term gains is stupidity. american policy was wrong. no doubt. but u also committed mistakes.
that the american companies licked taliban's shoes is also nothing new. they r known to do anything for the sake of their businesses. they are known to violate sanctions laid down by their own country.
refer to the threads in the kashmir section of this forum for discussion on the kashmir policy.
Munna.
[/QUOTE]
My argument was that Taliban was not the sole creation of Pakistan,, but rather was assisted by US.... now regarding MAdrassahs....they have been around for a while...there is no wrong in them.... but there are some which are a problem....but overall they help feed the poor and educate them....hence there are fine..... you brought up the Kashmir issue hence I answered...if you wanted it to be discussed in the Kashmir section you shouldn't have brought it up.... whether the policy was bad or not....is an academic question and both sides have good arguments.... regardless the point here is regarding US and Pakistani relations.... my basic argument is that if the US started somethning..it shoudn't just put the blame on Pakistan and walk away.... now talking about extremism that seems to be your arguiment...why don't we talk about India....and its thugs "BjP, RSS, Shiv sena.".... those idiots are responsible for much more problems......as well these extremists terrorists are actually lead government....hence there should be much more concern shown regarding India then Pakistan...
I wouldn't call it a thankless job for several reasons, chief amonst them being:
a) It is a noble job and reward by itself to hunt out as many terrorists as you can find
b) Besides helping the world, it reduces terrorists within the country
c) Apart from billions of dollars of loan re-scheduling, Paksitan has received between 800 & 900 MM in outright payment for these services
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *
My argument was that Taliban was not the sole creation of Pakistan,, but rather was assisted by US.... now regarding MAdrassahs....they have been around for a while...there is no wrong in them.... but there are some which are a problem....but overall they help feed the poor and educate them....hence there are fine..... you brought up the Kashmir issue hence I answered...if you wanted it to be discussed in the Kashmir section you shouldn't have brought it up.... whether the policy was bad or not....is an academic question and both sides have good arguments.... regardless the point here is regarding US and Pakistani relations.... my basic argument is that if the US started somethning..it shoudn't just put the blame on Pakistan and walk away.... now talking about extremism that seems to be your arguiment...why don't we talk about India....and its thugs "BjP, RSS, Shiv sena.".... those idiots are responsible for much more problems......as well these extremists terrorists are actually lead government....hence there should be much more concern shown regarding India then Pakistan...
[/QUOTE]
ok. taliban were not the sole creation of pakistan. i also agree about the madrassas. but then u have to focus on the trouble makers and rein them in. russia left afghanistan in 1989-90( i am not sure about the dates).but taliban rose long after that. first it was gulbuddin hekmatyar vs rabbani. how did students of the madrassas(as the taliban called themselves)suddenly organise themselves to take over nearly the whole country? how did they get access to the military means to take over the whole country? i dont want to go into the history of the afghan conflict. the point i want to make here was that pakistan continued assistance to the taliban long after russians and us left afghanistan.
about kashmir, i was answering to the points that kabir raised at the start of this thread. we can continue this discussion on the kashmir section.
Munna.
b) Besides helping the world, it reduces terrorists within the country
True if the US manages to catch and kill all the terrorists in Pakistan there would'nt be anybody left in Pakistan.
Hope they do manage !
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is pakistan doing a thankless job
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by munnabhai: *
how did students of the madrassas(as the taliban called themselves)suddenly organise themselves to take over nearly the whole country? how did they get access to the military means to take over the whole country? i dont want to go into the history of the afghan conflict. the point i want to make here was that pakistan continued assistance to the taliban long after russians and us left afghanistan.
about kashmir, i was answering to the points that kabir raised at the start of this thread. we can continue this discussion on the kashmir section.
Munna.
[/QUOTE]
In order to answer the questions you have raised, we have to see the back ground of whats happening in the country since 1979. And the Pak-Afghan relationship before that. After the creation of Pakistan, the relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan have almost always been of mistrust. Afghanistan hasent accepted the Pashtun and Baloch areas areas of Pakistan, (NWFP) to be a part of Pakistan. The Durrand line that divides, the tribal areas of the Pakistani and Afghan tribals was drawn by a British called Durrand in 1896 which was for a period of 100 years, which has elapsed by the way in 1996. If some future Afghan government demands its lands back, Pakistan wouldnt have any moral/legal claim on those areas. Pakistan always wanted a friendly regime in Afghanistan, like India would want a friendly/compliant Pakistan to its East.
When the Russians occupied Afghanistan, the leadership inside Pakistan got wary of Russian designs to carry on with the invasion of Pakistan to get hold of the warm waters of Arabian sea. The Americans, had already fought against the Russians in Vietnam and Korea, and had been humiliated in both wars. They wanted to avenge their defeats, and the occupation of Afghanistan provided them with a chance. Here the Americans played safe, since they didnt go to fight the Russians physically. They trained the Afghans, and for that purpose set up Militant Madrassas, in Pakistan, where people from all around the world came to train and go to Afghanistan to fight against the Russians. Since those guys were fulfilling American interests, therefore they were projected as Mujahideen, and the war as Jihad. Later, when these people turned against the Americans, they are terrorists.
Anyways, from 1979-1989, ISI got involved fully in Afghan affairs. This was the best chance for the Pakistanis to finally install a friendly government in Afghanistan. During this period, Pakistan commited may grave mistakes as well, like they provided bulk of the weapons to Hekmatyar (Pashtuns), and very few to Masood (Tajiks) and other Non-Pashtuns. That created a sense of suspicion in non pashtuns against Pakistani designs.
In 1989 Russians were routed, and a government was formed in Afghanistan. Later differences appeared in the coalition with Pakistanis fully supporting the Prime Minister Hekmatyar, against President Rabbani and his Foreign Minister Masood. The war went out of control, with regional warlords consolidating their control in their respective areas. Pakistan somehow lost hope that Hekmatyar would be able to control all of Afghanistan.
The ISI was already deeply entrenched in Afghan Affairs, and the vital infrastructure (Madrassa's) were available in Pakistan which could be used to bring a change in Afghanistan. Pakistan was feeling nervous with the Durrand treaty ending, and no friendly government in sight. The people of Afghanistan were tired of the infighting that had plagued Afghanistan since 1979, therefore they hailed taleban who had the backing of ISI. Due to our taleban policy, the Afghans had the notion thet Pakistan had invaded their country, with the result that we have a government suspicious of Pakistan's actions in Afghanistan, we have destroyed our friendly relationship with Iran, which have further been dented due to Pakistan's subservience to the US. Even China is going for better relationship with India, and Russia since they know that they cant depend upon Pakistan, which will always prefer US to them. The new alliance that might shape in this region will further isolate Pakistan, thanks to our friend the USA. When it would be Pakistan & US versus, China & India & Russia & Iran. Now its to be seen in which grouping Afghanistan would be.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
I dont think that the Pakistani regime can be tough...
The country which has nukes, and cant decide how to vote in the UNSC, you can judge the mental toughness of its leadership...
[/QUOTE]
Musharraf showed his mental toughness after 9/11, at Agra and against India's "decisive war" last year, and I trust he will do it again. Pakistan is safer under him than any other leader. So I ask you if not Musharraf then who do you suggest? Give us a name of a leader who will protect our national interets including our nuclear assets better than him? Who...?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Musharraf showed his mental toughness after 9/11, at Agra and against India's "decisive war" last year, and I trust he will do it again. Pakistan is safer under him than any other leader. So I ask you if not Musharraf then who do you suggest? Give us a name of a leader who will protect our national interets including our nuclear assets better than him? Who...?
[/QUOTE]
Malik73, I dont think Musharraf can protect our national or nuclear assets. And I dont consider him to be mentally tough otherwise he wouldnt have been saying that, it would have been better off if Pakistan were not member of the UNSC. That coming from the head of state of the only Islamic nuclear state, pathetic. When the Americans ask him to disarm, he will do that too, in Pakistan's national interest.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Malik73, I dont think Musharraf can protect our national or nuclear assets.
[/QUOTE]
You have absolutely no evidence to base that on. In fact all the evidence since Oct 1999 disproves your claims, so that is why asked you who else could Musharraf's job? You have failed to provide a name and so I ask you again give us the name of anyone else you believe can do the job? Thank you.
Why are you comparing Iraq with Pakistan, zaavia? Do you really believe Iraq has got Nukes? Haven’t you heard Musharraf saying: Pakistan is No Iraq. Americans are asking Iraq to disarm (fake scenerio), because they ain’t got none. They got Oil. North Korea doesn’t got Oil. Same goes for Pakistan.
Come out of Iraq phobia.
Let’s see what Americans have told Musharraf to do:
-
Stop infiltrations…which still continues.
-
Hand over 20 most wanted men to India, which never happened.
-
Hand over Sheikh Omar, which never happened.
-
Hand over Maulana Azhar, which never happened.
According to SA Tribune, Ayaz Amir, and most recoginzable Guppies from the Eastern Border thought, Musharraf will bent.
Ouch! Wrong Thought!
Is he mentally tough 'cause he just paid visit to the U.S?
From all the politicians, I think Shahbaz Sharif is the most mentally tough and suitable guy to lead Pakistan. The courage of Musharraf has been exposed fully by the events post 911.
PT, Musharraf has played his little game a little too long, and now he's almost out of all his cards, after Iraq, Pakistan might have to de-weaponize, and roll back its Kashmir issue, or be in the line of Iraq and NK as far as US is concerned. Pakistan's weapons are of more concern to the US, as there are more chances of them falling into the hands of rogue elements. Right now US hasent exerted its pressure on Pakistan regarding the Kashmir dispute, and the de-weaponization coz they know that Pakistan will comply when the time comes.
As far as Pakistan not being Iraq, Saddam is also saying that Iraq is not Afghanistan, although I believe that the Iraqi war will be shorter.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Stop infiltrations......which still continues.
Hand over 20 most wanted men to India, which never happened.
Hand over Sheikh Omar, which never happened.
Hand over Maulana Azhar, which never happened.
According to SA Tribune, Ayaz Amir, and most recoginzable Guppies from the Eastern Border thought, Musharraf will bent.
Ouch! Wrong Thought!
[/QUOTE]
You mean the guy who collapsed to the floor begging for water on the day of the military coup? The very same guy who fled the country along with his brother and family in December 2000, and has been out of the country since then? Is that what you call a courageous leader?
zaavia yaar thanks for great laugh.
And thats what Unkil Mushy is telling us? 
As far as Mushy’s begging Veggie Pie for discussions are concerned, thats infront of the whole world. It was Mushy crying for help when Indians had mobilized their forces a few months ago, and now I am pretty sure that it was him who carried out the kargil operation to sabotage the peace mission of Nawaz Sharif, and when the matters started getting out of control, he forced Nawaz Sharif to run towards Washington. Any ways Shahbaz Sharif is more strong headed as compared to Nawaz Sharif, and the way he controlled the Bureaucracy in Punjab has also not been matched by the current so called rulers. Shahbaz Sharif and co. is the best choice, in the present lot of politicians/Musharraf.
I missed that one. It’s mentally tough flying between Jeddah, London and the states you know, and really courageous that you never dare come back to your own country.
Is he telling us that Shahbaz Sharif has been living outside Pakistan in splendid royal comfort since Dec 2000 or is that fact? Did Musharraf tell us that Shahbaz is doing some first class jetting between Jeddah, London and the states? Or is that rather fact? I really have to thank you…for giving me the biggest laugh for ages.