All this nora kushti of 5000 taliban can not be controlled by our massive armed forces...I think people who have used this pretext for last 10 years to illegally rule the country stand exposed and public is not ready to buy these lies anymore...
The area where these taliban are operating are all land locked...Do you think the sophisticated arms and ammunition with which they are fighting fall from the sky as Allah's help to them...and to finance all their activity the print dollars and euros...
Look up recent history of Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Vietnam to figure out why insurgency, especially one support by local population can be so difficult to control. This is a global jihadi phenomenon, not contained within borders.
I can give you a more simpler and practical solution to all this problem which will surely work....just put some serving and ex generals of Pakistan army in jail who exploit this situation for their own personal benefit...the air will quickly fizzle out of this balloon...
Pandroa's box was opened in the 70s and 80s. While I would love to see people like hamid gul, nasrullah babur put in jail or hanged, it will not make any difference on the ground. Taliban is equally a pashtun movement as it is a jihadi movement.
Pandroa's box was opened in the 70s and 80s. While I would love to see people like hamid gul, nasrullah babur put in jail or hanged, it will not make any difference on the ground. Taliban is equally a pashtun movement as it is a jihadi movement.
Totally agree...however in more recent times Musharraf has used this problem by double playing...i.e. supported these terrorist on one hand and showing the world that he is fighting a war against them on the other...to rule illegally for last 9 years..He should be hanged together with those former culprits...
Do you think these jihadis are fighting with the same equipment that was supplied to them by Hamid Gul etc. still today...or you think the logistical and equipment support fall from the sky as Allah's help to them..
Look up recent history of Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Vietnam to figure out why insurgency, especially one support by local population can be so difficult to control. This is a global jihadi phenomenon, not contained within borders.
Whjat kind of sophisticated equipment is manufactured locally...while the local population continues to suffer in the hands of these jihadis and are really fed up from these guys...they can not do anything against the same as these jihadis are much better eqipped and trained thanks to their real masters in our agancies and army...
Totally agree...however in more recent times Musharraf has used this problem by double playing...i.e. supported these terrorist on one hand and showing the world that he is fighting a war against them on the other...to rule illegally for last 9 years..He should be hanged together with those former culprits...
Do you think these jihadis are fighting with the same equipment that was supplied to them by Hamid Gul etc. still today...or you think the logistical and equipment support fall from the sky as Allah's help to them..
Totally agree...however in more recent times Musharraf has used this problem by double playing...i.e. supported these terrorist on one hand and showing the world that he is fighting a war against them on the other...to rule illegally for last 9 years..He should be hanged together with those former culprits...
Do you think these jihadis are fighting with the same equipment that was supplied to them by Hamid Gul etc. still today...or you think the logistical and equipment support fall from the sky as Allah's help to them..
No, Mush did not double play, you're simple double speaking now. Elements within the establishment sure have as they are drawn from the same publis that we we all know has largely been supportive of jihadi tanzeems. This is where the terrorists draw most of their strength from.
Equipment is a minor thing, as we know guns are not hard to find in tribal areas. It's the ideology and training that lasts a lifetime.
Whjat kind of sophisticated equipment is manufactured locally...while the local population continues to suffer in the hands of these jihadis and are really fed up from these guys...they can not do anything against the same as these jihadis are much better eqipped and trained thanks to their real masters in our agancies and army...
What sophisticated equipment? Ever heard of darra adam khel or smuggling?
And in all that time we support a mosnter who is killing our own people, our own armymen? Who knows for how long US remains in Afghanistan?
US has long interests in Afghanistan, if all they wanted was to oust Taliban (so called objective) they'd have gone end of 2002/03. Whether Afghanis want US out of their country or not we cannot destroy our own nation, we cannot let world declare our country as terrorists/terrorists-haven, this is detrimental to our existence and our society.
You also should remember Afghanis have been anti-Pakistani since birth of Pakistan.
We've supported the monster forever, whats new about it now? It appears more like they are fighting USA proxy war in Pakistan now not in Afghanistan. We bought their loyalty for US during the cold war to fight against USSR, now US has bought their loyalty to engage in proxy war inside Pakistan.
In short we are in between a rock and a hard place. Its in Pakistans best interests to support those elements that will create unrest in Afghanistan to oust USA (not easy though) just as USA is supporting those elements in Afghanistan which are causing this havoc inside Pakistan. Pakistan and USA may appear to be allies but both are fighting proxy wars in our border region and Afghanistan against each other.
Its in Pakistans best interests to support those elements that will create unrest in Afghanistan to oust USA (not easy though)
Not really. Because if we get caught we would be placed on the state sponsors of terrorism list like Iran (which got there by supporting elements trying to successfully oust the USA from Lebanon).
Supporting anti-NATO forces in Afghanistan will shut down Pakistan's trade with the USA and the EU, which are two of our major trading partners - it would devestate Pakistan's economy, as well as shutting us off from our only sources of high-tech weaponry (our chinese-made tanks and planes all have extensive refits with european equipment) - which in turn will make us much more vulnerable on the east.
It's incorrect to say the Taliban were ousted in 2002/2003. If they were ousted, then who made a mjor offensive in the kandahar region earlier this month, taking many villages out of the control of karzai's government and requiring a counter-attack? The Taliban are still very much around... they just are not in government in Kabul anymore.
We've supported the monster forever, whats new about it now? It appears more like they are fighting USA proxy war in Pakistan now not in Afghanistan. We bought their loyalty for US during the cold war to fight against USSR, now US has bought their loyalty to engage in proxy war inside Pakistan.
In short we are in between a rock and a hard place. Its in Pakistans best interests to support those elements that will create unrest in Afghanistan to oust USA (not easy though) just as USA is supporting those elements in Afghanistan which are causing this havoc inside Pakistan. Pakistan and USA may appear to be allies but both are fighting proxy wars in our border region and Afghanistan against each other.
come again? you're talking as if USA is an enemy of Pakistan and wants to defeat Pakistan in something. If USA had wanted that they don't have to resort to any such under-handed methods and can directly fly into the army house and have their way.
Why should we complicate matters unnecessarily? The taleban Al Qaeda and religious extremists hate non-muslims and have zoned in on Bush's America as the target. USA has to defend itself and in spite screwing up the war in Iraq, has to catch these guys - with or without Pakistan's support. If Pakistan hosts them, it is up to Pakistan as to which side they want to be in - the terrorists' side or the USA's side.
So far Pakistan has played the same double game that you are recommending but that hasn't gotten them anywhere and in fact has damaged Pakistan a lot more
Not really. Because if we get caught we would be placed on the state sponsors of terrorism list like Iran (which got there by supporting elements trying to successfully oust the USA from Lebanon).
When that is needed, it will happen irrespective of getting caught or not. As long as we serve a purpose we have some assurance of mutual cooperation.
Supporting anti-NATO forces in Afghanistan will shut down Pakistan's trade with the USA and the EU, which are two of our major trading partners - it would devestate Pakistan's economy, as well as shutting us off from our only sources of high-tech weaponry (our chinese-made tanks and planes all have extensive refits with european equipment) - which in turn will make us much more vulnerable on the east.
Pakistan is in the midst of conflicting interests, no matter who we please we are sure to loose support from someone, what matters is who is more beneficial to us. I can agree that loosing our US and europeon trade parteners would have devastating effects on our economy but so would loosing Pakistan as an ally to further western interests in the region. Whatever path we choose, it is bloody. Its just whose blood we take on our hands and on whose hands will be our blood. The weakness of Pakistan lays within because our political forces do not view the progress of the coutry with the same view or harmony. We can use force to eradicate the Taliban menace, in which case, public support will be divided and we risk loosing NWFP and Baluchistan in rebellion or we can turn a blind eye to the menace in which we slowly loose support from US and even make enemies with them Or we can take calculated risks in appeasing both fronts (which is what seems to be happening). However US sitting next door with absolute control is not in our best interests.
It's incorrect to say the Taliban were ousted in 2002/2003. If they were ousted, then who made a mjor offensive in the kandahar region earlier this month, taking many villages out of the control of karzai's government and requiring a counter-attack? The Taliban are still very much around... they just are not in government in Kabul anymore.
I don't believe I said Taliban were ousted out of existence just governmental power. I agree.
Pakistan is in the midst of conflicting interests, no matter who we please we are sure to loose support from someone, what matters is who is more beneficial to us. I can agree that loosing our US and europeon trade parteners would have devastating effects on our economy but so would loosing Pakistan as an ally to further western interests in the region. Whatever path we choose, it is bloody. Its just whose blood we take on our hands and on whose hands will be our blood. The weakness of Pakistan lays within because our political forces do not view the progress of the coutry with the same view or harmony. We can use force to eradicate the Taliban menace, in which case, public support will be divided and we risk loosing NWFP and Baluchistan in rebellion or we can turn a blind eye to the menace in which we slowly loose support from US and even make enemies with them Or we can take calculated risks in appeasing both fronts (which is what seems to be happening). However US sitting next door with absolute control is not in our best interests.
I don't believe I said Taliban were ousted out of existence just governmental power. I agree.
The economic destruction of Pakistan from loss of trade will be far worse than any risk of insurgency of the frontiers. Economic decay will lead to a further breakdown of law and order, political security, and radicalisation. No nation has ever experienced anything but its rapid stagnation and slide towards destruction under sanctions. Insurrections, on the other hand, have historically been possible to at least contain, even defeat, once you kill enough rebels and the people who support the rebels.
It's ridiculous to argue that the entire NWFP and Balochistan are even in remote danger of being lost; election results show federalist parties stay strong there.
Your admittance that the Taliban are stilla round undermines your earlier argument that the US would have left after ousting them. The Taliban remain present, with more local support and military power in half the country than the pro-western karzai government. You know that without americans and NATO around, the Taliban's ouster from power would be over in abotu 3 months.
The economic destruction of Pakistan from loss of trade will be far worse than any risk of insurgency of the frontiers. Economic decay will lead to a further breakdown of law and order, political security, and radicalisation. No nation has ever experienced anything but its rapid stagnation and slide towards destruction under sanctions. Insurrections, on the other hand, have historically been possible to at least contain, even defeat, once you kill enough rebels and the people who support the rebels.
Yes economic downturn is the root of many evils. Killing a bunch of rebels is worthless unless it is swift and severe. It amazes me how these rebels keep their supply lines open when US is sitting at one side of the border and Pakistan army at the other. With them sandwiched in between who could be possibly supplying them under the vigilance of two major armies unless their supply lines come from within, either Pak or US.
It's ridiculous to argue that the entire NWFP and Balochistan are even in remote danger of being lost; election results show federalist parties stay strong there.
There is nothing to be lost there in any sense other than nothing can be gained from there either unless we have control of the those areas. Winning elections there is not evidence of their integration into the federal body or its mandates. Their winning elections there means little to no practical value.
Your admittance that the Taliban are stilla round undermines your earlier argument that the US would have left after ousting them. The Taliban remain present, with more local support and military power in half the country than the pro-western karzai government. You know that without americans and NATO around, the Taliban's ouster from power would be over in abotu 3 months.
I still can't find where I made that statement. Please quote me.
the end decision regarding pakistans WOT course of action can only be made once pakistan has an idea of its own objectives including its future energy needs and whether afghanistan forms part of that but more importantly its judgement of US foreign policy. a judgement has to be made because of the hugely controversial role of the US in meddling with muslim countries.
part of pakistans national defence is with the strength of other muslim countries, its not rocket science to know that a world which has ruthlessly oppressed muslims will eventually deal with pakistan aswell. to disregard other actions and directions of the US when talking about afghanistan is pretentious at best.
this war started in 2001 with worldclass fanfare and propaganda. now they have destroyed iraq, are working towards destroying iran and are using the taliban (alledgedly) to kill pakistanis. these are all serious matters which without doubt are more sinister then the taliban.
the battle of ideologies is not between american politics and the muslims, muslims are far better. the battle is not between taliban and the US dictatorship, taliban are no match for US foreign policy evils. the battle of ideologies is between the US and al kaida, and still the US comfortably leads them for badness.
so pakistan must at some point decide whether it is willing to help one of the extreme ideologies position itself to hurt pakistan later. both are eager to do so
non of us really know what state pak defence is in but if aq khans poliferation plan was hatched by isi because of prior knowledge of US designs then rest assured pakistan is in strong hands but if it was just personal business then it proves pakistan are just coasting aka cruising for a beating
They are still fighting with the arms supplied to them by Zia ul Haq coupled with Allah’s help falling from sky…they don’t need any training as their jazba is enough…plus in dara adam khel they have established thriving sophisticated arms producing industry where they produce every kind of electronic gadget, communication equipment, precision missiles etc. etc…if you have any doubt please contact Mr. KK who will clarify all your doubts…
** The Bara Operation is a lie, plain and simple **
Tuesday, July 01, 2008
Comment
By Mohammad Malick
PESHAWAR: The so-called grand operation to “protect” Peshawar from the marauding troops of the Lashkar-e-Islami of militant leader Haji Mangal Bagh and others entered its third day today. The government has already claimed victory to the extent of ridding the Khyber Agency of the so -called criminal extremists who ostensibly have been sent scurrying to the farther valley of Tirah.
Security czar Rehman Malik and Prime Minister Gilani are patting themselves on the back for having restored the government’s writ. TV audiences are being treated to a steady feed of images of paramilitary convoys whizzing around and security forces blowing up one ‘militant hideout’ after another.
The government is also crowing about the fact that its measures are so popular with the local tribal population and its power so awesome for the obviously chickened-out militants that not a single bullet has been fired at the security forces. A lot is being made out of the banning of Lashkar-e-Islami (led by Mangal Bagh), Ansar-Ul-Islam (led by Qazi Mehboobul Haq who is Mangal’s sworn enemy) and Haji Namdar-led Tanzeem Amar Bil Maroof Wa Nahi Anil Munqar. And if Islamabad’s version is to be believed then it is only a matter of time before the rest of the tribal region starts toeing their line as well.
And now the truth: It’s all hogwash. It’s a drama being staged to placate a nervous public, please the cooperative militias by giving them sufficient advance warning, and confuse the Americans who of late have been displaying the audacity to ask for verifiable deliverables against all the money they have been pumping in for the last eight years. A desperate appeasement attempt for the visiting Deputy Secretary of State, Richard Boucher, if you may.
But we’ll come to the causes later. First the happenings on the ground. The government can go blue in the face claiming otherwise but the fact is that the government’s real writ does not extend beyond the last settled area police picket at the Peshawar-Bara sub-division border. And in some cases where it may appear to be present in any diluted form a little farther down the road, there too it is only a negotiated concession from the local militias and not the consequence of any so-called restored the government writ.
While enough evidence exists on the ground to back this impression it would not be irrelevant to narrate a pertinent incident which occurred only this afternoon while I along with A Geo TV crew were returning from visiting the site of the partially bombed out fortified Madrassah structure of Haji Namdar group in the area of Bur Qumber Khel which lies about 20kms from Peshawar. (By the way the credit is being given to a missile fired by a US drone and the claim also appears credible as it is the only real hit where seven militants actually got killed, this being the highest casualty in the entire operation). Anyway, in our attempt to take a shorter route back we took the Tirah-Jamrud road back but were stopped midway at a checkpoint manned by a small contingent of the Mehsud Scouts. While we were pleading to be allowed to go through, I managed to have a long chat with one of the officers (whom I shall not name for the obvious reasons) regarding the hollowness of government claims of having forced the militants out of the area as I informed him that I had just spent hours in an area which was teeming with armed members of the Haji Namdar group while dozens of twin-cab vehicles loaded with armed militants were calmly patrolling the entire area as if nothing extraordinary had happened there. And you know what? The officer actually let it slip that even if his own commandant had to go into the area “his security is provided by Namdar’s men”. So much for one banned outfit and the ongoing operation.
However, there seems to be a general consensus that the Namdar group is not viewed in the same negative vein as Mangal Bagh’s and may have been banned only to give the impression of the administration playing even-handed and not singling out the much larger Lashkar-e-Islami of Mangal Bagh.
And if there are still any doubts on this front then let me share another incident which took place on our way in. We had barely entered Namdar territory when suddenly a Toyota twin-cab came after us at bullet speed, the headlights flashing in a signal for us to stop while a blue police light (incidentally mounted on all vehicles of Namdar and other groups operating in the area) for the added official touch I presume. The moment we stopped, six men jumped off the vehicle and surrounded us, their guns aimed at our heads. Their leader, hardly 19 or 20 years of age, demanded an explanation for our presence in “their territory”. About 15 minutes and few reasons later we were allowed to move on after strong hand shakes, warm smiles, and the message to tell the world that they are only fighting against the Americans and for Afghan Muslims and not against Pakistan. As if we were going to argue with that logic. By the way, this incident took place barely three kilometers after entering the tribal area from Peshawar. Wasn’t it close enough to qualify as falling in the jurisdiction of re-imposed state writ, one wonders?
Now to Mangal Bagh’s people. While Mangal himelf had left for Tirah, where incidentally he is engaged in a bitter sectarian feud, his followers were not found lacking in numbers or visibility. The truth is that within minutes of the security forces moving out after blowing out the abandoned and vacated structures, the Lashkar-e-Islami militants could be seem calmly raising their black flags over the damaged structures and casually inspecting the damaged goods. The interesting part is that not a single militant of any group ever seems in a hurry to get away from the scene, or the area, and at least on three occasions I personally saw militant loaded vehicles drive by Levis and others with no reaction from the paramilitary forces. One amazing operation cleanup isn’t it?
Yazdi, thanks for showing complete ignorance of the tribal areas. Keep it going, you’re on a roll. :k:
But the article above is true, as it shows that the only real clean up operations are reserved for innocent people in Karachi, not real terrorists. The FC might as well be part of the Taliban.
You know there was a time when smuggled weaponry was available and still is however to have enough quantities of it is not without local cooperation from the Army or agencies. I have been to Bara in Quetta myself so I know that there is no dearth of home-made weaponry or smuggled goods however they did not have stuff that would match up to a full-fledged army weaponry. Yes many of them have privately amassed huge collections of some sophisticated weaponry in terms of gunning calibre stuff however that is it and all this due to the benevolence of our forces and agencies as well. The most they can make is KKs with bullets and that is not to keep a professional army out. My point is they cannot sustain without the help of someone, it is either Pak or US given the composition of the region currently.