^^ And what about U.S.' and U.K.'s infrastructure... at least they put the money there first, its most rightful place. Mistrust, mistrust and more mistrust... that's what prevents us from paying our taxes and thus the govt from being able to do its thing. If you pay your taxes you're not doing something additional, it's like this - if you don't pay your taxes you're being illegal (unless you are below poverty line). I know that there are even wealthy people in Karachi don't properly pay their taxes. We should be thankful that we have a decent Chief Justice who isn't ready to subdue, and that is a backup for us in case the govt doesn't rightly use the taxes when we pay them.
when you grow up then "only" I will tell you how Karachi was "marden"
FYI: Karachi is/was called "City of Lights" long before when your US and UK infra was in their small heads.
why? they have their obligations, now if you are so poor that you fall below a certan threshold and dont pay taxes, thats one thing, but other than that taxes are taxes. What is next, would it be understandable if middle class people stop paying bills?
Before I start talking about any "classes," let me clarify that the judiciary system needs to be corrected FIRST, which can be evidenced by the lawyer protests these days in the city... although this issue about the CJ suspension could be handled more docilely in my opinion, I do like the fact that people are standing up against what's wrong and aren't much presssured by political parties to keep their mouths shut (thanks in part to our media).
Back to topic: The middle-class in Karachi barely meet their basic requirements due to rising expenses and privatization--thus leading these people to believe that paying taxes won't benefit them. Perhaps the kind of class your reference would be more apt to will be the "upper middle-class," which I am from myself. These people are almost as well-off as the "burger classes" but are classified as "middle-class" due to the areas they live in; Gulshan-i-Iqbal, Gulistan-i-Jauhar etc. are considered "upper middle-class," because they aren't as well facilitated as the "burger areas" (Clifton, Defence) but still most people can afford to find solutions (water treatment filters, electric generators etc.).
These people have no excuse to be exempted from paying their taxes, since more or less the taxes are being used for benefits (even if 1.7% is spent on education - which is supposed to rise anyway - at least money is being spend on education)... these people send their own kids to private schools and take all the advantages of the corruption in the city, and yet at the same time don't pay their taxes showing their neglect for their own people who are less fortunate.
But once again, judiciary system comes first... although I won't say that it is getting much worse, thanks to some of our people who actually care for others and recognize its importance for Pakistan and themselves. But even now, those who can pay their taxes should because the taxes are going to benefit the people in the future, especially taking in account the direction of our judiciary system since the CJ's suspension. Even in recent years, the situation was definitely not good, but not abysmal.
retroguy, you cant wait to fix the judiciary system to then say people should pay their taxes. Both need to be done. case could be made that judiciaryis not truly indpendent in US either due tothe alignment of judges with liberal or conservatives..I am speaking supreme court, or when the attorney general takes sides with the govt i.e. alberto gonzalez. Should people stop paying taxes until it is fixed to their personal level fo satisfaction?
waysay the middle and upper middle class pays more taxes in pak comparing to the upper/ellite class...
middle class is larger than upper class so by sheer numbers they pay more
additionally more middle class people are professionals, easier to track income of salaried folks.
upper class people have many tax shelters and by showing profit and loss here and there they minimize their taxes
this is true for all countries..
but lastly in Pakistan, the upper class ppl are connected and just get out of paying taxes, forget that some of them even get loans from banks and never pay back, hafta look back at reports that came out in the 90's with names of people who has not paid back 'loans' worth millions
retroguy, you cant wait to fix the judiciary system to then say people should pay their taxes. Both need to be done. case could be made that judiciaryis not truly indpendent in US either due tothe alignment of judges with liberal or conservatives..I am speaking supreme court, or when the attorney general takes sides with the govt i.e. alberto gonzalez. Should people stop paying taxes until it is fixed to their personal level fo satisfaction?
That's just what I said, both the judiciary and current taxes need to be fixed simultaneously--although if an immediate correction to the judiciary is made the tax problems will automatically resolve themselves to quite an extent (once again, the question is "how"). And the corrections need not to be made to the people's personal level of satisfaction (that's impossible anyway considering the vast criteria of people), but definitely to a certain acceptable criteria.
^^ Like it or not, there is and will always be a link between the judiciary and taxes. Let me bring up a good example to compare Pakistan's current tax-paying trends (amongst upper-middle and "elite" classes) with a car:
You have a car, the car leaks 50% of the gas it consumes, so you decide not to waste your money and do not put any gas at all in the car. The result--the car doesn't work. < This is the pessimistic view of the current tax-paying in Pakistan, which many guppies share. Obviously the best way to fix up that car is to mend up its gas tank, which in Pakistan's case is its judiciary system.
From that same example, here's an optimistic view of the *current *tax-paying in Pakistan: You don't have the time to go the mechanic and get that car fixed, but you figure out that you won't be losing much even if some of your money gets wasted on the gas; after all, the main purpose of having a car is to drive, which is more important to you than the gas that is wasted.
That's a very true example, since fixing up the law isn't up to you, yet you can help your people - to an extent at least - by paying taxes; additionally, you won't go broke if you are losing some of your money unnecessarily, although the judiciary situation in Pakistan is gonna improve anyway. So the basic point is at least do as much as you can; even if the efficiency of the taxes you pay is 50%, it is still far better than 0% (which is the case if you don't pay taxes at all).
Its not just karachi, its the whole of Pakistan, nothing you do or say will change anything, the corrupt mindset is passed on from generations and will be passed on...
^^ Here we are talking about only Karachi... a city that generates 65% of the country's entire GDP has a huge significance. That's the reason why Karachi's called "Mini Pakistan", it covers just about all the diversity of Pakistan in one crummy city. We have to start with Karachi, then Lahore, and so on... big cities get far more coverage and are more likely to affect the country as a whole. Islamabad was pretty much fine until the extremist schools sent in the girls to wreak havoc. So don't say that just doing something in Karachi is not gonna do anything.
The first one actually made me wonder if I was the one who wrote the article; thanks God there are people in the media who share the same ideas as me, now the question remaining is - who’s gonna take notice? The second one had me in fumes… no one should pay these fraudias.
There’s also some good news on the page (links not here); including multi-storied parking plazas and a massive spenditure on hospitals. I also learnt that the investment in improving hospital facilities was a joint govt-private affair, now that’s a sensible move… unlike the absolute privatisation that’s going on in our city (as discussed in the first link).
^^ Oh, you didn't know that? Well, most Karachiites are aware of that fact, anyway. So yes, Karachi generates 65% of the national GDP and so it is a city of great importance, therefore it is considered "modern"; it is considered modern despite the fact that it lacks a maintained basic infrastructure, that's what this thread's all about. Now will someone please give a comment on post#33, wanna know how many like-minded people are there. And if anyone reading this is in Karachi, plz let me know :).
^^ Oh, you didn't know that? Well, most Karachiites are aware of that fact, anyway. So yes, Karachi generates 65% of the national GDP and so it is a city of great importance, therefore it is considered "modern"; it is considered modern despite the fact that it lacks a maintained basic infrastructure, that's what this thread's all about. Now will someone please give a comment on post#33, wanna know how many like-minded people are there. And if anyone reading this is in Karachi, plz let me know :).
This is a great misnomer here in Pakistan! Nobody is paying taxes here in Pakistan - I mean direct taxes! The main tax collections are:
Sales tax
Customs duty
Income tax at source
The last is direct income tax
The last tax is the main problem. From multinationals to local seths, everyone is stealing direct tax here in Pakistan.
This is really very unjust to say that Karachi produces 65% of GDP. It is akin to saying that Karachi works and rest of the country eats.
If we have an indepth analysis of Pakistan's economy, we will come to the conclusion that cotton and cotton products have been the major contributor of Pakistan' economy over many years. And you know where cotton is produced? Northern Sindh and Southern Punjab. It is only traded nationally and internationaly here in Karachi and so the indirect taxes of sales tax and customs duty are collected in Karachi. Beside cotton, these areas produces mangoes and sunflower as well.
Karachi has the largest industrial bases in the country but most of the industries are stealing direct tax here. Same is ture for Punjab and rest of the country.
But at least most Karachi seths and multinationals pay indirect taxes. But in other areas even they steal indirect taxes.
Multinationals are invovled in over-invoicing i.e., importing goods from their parents/principal at inflated cost thereby increasing their cost of sales to save direct income tax.