Please read the following passage in the Holy Quran. Can a knowledgable person in Islam explain these to me?
No friends from outsiders->III.118
No friends with Jews, Christians->V. 51
No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
Killing Idolators->IX.5
Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers ->V.33,34
Islam is the most peaceful and tolerant religion.
If you have any doubt ask Osama, the present day reincarnation of the most peaceloving people like Tughlaq and Khomeiny.
Ignore the rest of the glorified book and pick the verses that suit your agenda best. Typical of ignorants, who dont want to learn anything.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pagluu:
Ignore the rest of the glorified book and pick the verses that suit your agenda best. Typical of ignorants, who dont want to learn anything.
[/quote]
Even if you take into account the rest of the "book", I dont know how can someone defend the lines in LogicUser's post above as being "tolerant"!!
Pagluu,
Perhaps you can explain them to me. I am just asking for explanations. I am not trying to make any points with them.
In addition to the 'out of context' lines that have been quoted from the Qur'aan.
Let's also take lines from the Bible, Torah and Vedas. We will then be in a position to fairly determine which Faith is the most tolerant.
Before I actually quote the lines, I am giving my fellow Guppies the opportunity to disclose the lines from their own sources in order to save face. Otherwise I will do the honours myself. You've been warned.
Also, let's just get the basics into perspective.
The Torah and Bible came only for the 12 Tribes of Israel, thus eliminating anyone elso out of the equation. And the Vedas, which is manmade, came only for the Indians.
The Qur'aan came for ALL of Mankind.
We can see from the offset which Faith is the most tolerant.
However, this is enough for now.
I await before I drop the bombshells!!!!
Dear Logic, you have no logic in your talk. Allah tallah has given all rights of peace and tolerance to Muslims, rest are pagana, kufirs, deaf and dumb.
Nobel peace price is commanded by paganas, otherwise Gaddafi, Saddam, Ayyatollah Khomeiny should have been the first runner for peace prize. There were many in history from Tughlaq to Aurangzeb who missed this prize.
Today it can be honored to Osama.
May be you pagana do not know the meaning of tolerance. Quran gives all possibilities to non believers to accept Islam, otherwise the believers have a divine right to get rid of people like you by all peaceful and tolerable means, the same way from Tughlaq to Khomeiny peace has flourished in Islamic world.
And once you are relinquished of your right for living, later you will be questioned on the judgment day and sent to hell also peacefully and tolerably.
During Tony Blair visit to Pakistan, in Rawalpindi there were huge gatherings of followers of Islam.
Someone was chanting very tolerably that they would declare Jihad against America and against all kufirs, because Allah was on their side.
How much such shouts we listen among followers of other religions in today world? They are really very intolerable.
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**Please read the following passage in the Holy Quran. Can a knowledgable person in Islam explain these to me?
No friends from outsiders->III.118
No friends with Jews, Christians->V. 51
No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
**
[/quote]
Most scholars are agreed that these verses are instructions to the Muslim State to prefer Muslims as allies rather than non-Muslims, rather than being personal instructions to all Muslims. This can be seen in the fact that the Prophet (SAWS) and his Companions were always friendly with the Christians of Abyssinia.
**
[quote]
Killing Idolators->IX.5**
[/quote]
Read the verses preceding and following this verse. I print them below :
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
The verse refers to those non-muslims who made peace treaties during the life of the Prophet (SAWS) with the Muslims but who also violated the treaties.
The instruction is that the early Muslims should fight against and kill the non-muslims who betrayed them and violated peace treaties.
But, as verse 6 makes clear, should any non-Muslim request the protection of the Muslims then it must be granted.
**
[quote]
Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers ->V.33,34
[/quote]
Give me a chapter reference and I will once more show how you've taken this verse completely out of context.
Dear mAd,
Could you please enlighten me about the religious freedom the kafirs(non muslims) are allowed in persuit of their religion of let's say in Saudi Arabia - the leader of Islam, governed 100% by Islamic Sharia'h.
BTW - would you allow a hindu/jew or even a shia to dip into your food?
And, oh yes - how did the prophet deal, in Jihad, with the Quraish tribes of Mecca?
The problem is: Fundamentalist Islam is FROZEN in its xenophobic interpretations of 7th century while rest of the world have EVOLVED or are capable of Evolving away from such silliness deemed eternal message of Allah.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Dear mAd,
Could you please enlighten me about the religious freedom the kafirs(non muslims) are allowed in persuit of their religion of let's say in Saudi Arabia - the leader of Islam, governed 100% by Islamic Sharia'h.
BTW - would you allow a hindu/jew or even a shia to dip into your food?
And, oh yes - how did the prophet deal, in Jihad, with the Quraish tribes of Mecca?**
[/quote]
1.) Saudi Arabia - Have you considered the fate of the Muslims in Saudi Arabia who are horrifically persecuted for calling for the monarchy, an institution with no roots in Islam whatsoever, to be abolished? Saudi Arabia may pretend to be the leader of the Muslim world, but it is in no way whatsoever an Islamic State and is most definately not 100% folowing the Shariah. Shariah law makes it clear that the leader of a nation must be chosen by the people; when's the last time you saw an election in Saudi? Saudi has a government that merely abuses the name of Islam in a desperate attempt to maintain power.
2.) Hindus. Like I said, some of my closest friends are Hindu. On Wednesday this week, I was at a Hindu's aprtment in West London, eating his food. And similarly, in the past I have shared my food with him.
Jews. At school, one of my friends was Jewish, and whenever he asked to share my food, I never turned him away.
Shias. During my life, I have had many Shia friends and family friends. I have completely lost track of the number of times I have eaten at the house of Shia families and they have eaten at my dinner table. In fact, during Ramadhan, my univerisities' Sunni-led Islamic Society provides free food and drink for Shias when they are required to end their fast.
Incidentally, your mention of Shia in a thread titled "Is Islam Tolerant" shows your ignorance. Shia beliefs, like Sunni beliefs, are drawn from Islam.
3.) As for the fate of the Quraysh, after they violated their peace treaty with the Muslims, their army was defeated my the Muslim army and Mecca occupied. The pagan Quraysh were told that there was no compulsion for them to enter Islam, though most did. Over time, those Quraysh who chose to continue with ploytheism eventually converted to Islam.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited October 06, 2001).]
Well said Mad..
What is happening today at the streets of Rawalpindi and Peshawar. Gatherings in favor of terrorism, shoutings of Jihad.....
Islam is a general fascism hidden behind the palate of religion.
Dear MAd,
Good to know that you have managed to evolve. But, you are still having difficulties in being honest with yourself & with others.
Logic User is correct (100%) in his understanding of those verses that he listed or,
No friends from outsiders->III.118
No friends with Jews, Christians->V. 51
No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
Logic User - they, the verses, mean exactly as they appear!
Majority of muslims are literalists or they believe in obeying & implementing the quran literally or word for word and those verses that you quoted "form the basis" of today's conflicts & dis-association with non-muslims. Of course, this I speak strictly from a Shariati point of view.
Let's see how you have answered the questions that I asked of you.
1) I asked you a simple question re: freedom of worship for kafirs in Saudia but instead I recd a rather circumventive response.
Were the Umayyadis, Abbassids, Ottamans, and other Caliphates ever "elected by the people" as you suggest? Many say that prophet had nominated his successor but the Sahabas reneged on it.
Anyways, the answer that I was looking for is - The non muslims do not have the freedom to congregate & worship in Saudi Arabia. This, they must do in very low-profile buildings & manners. They must, in no ways, proslytise to muslims and if they do the penalty is obvious in the Sharia'h and that is execution. One can refer to similar matter currently under the review of the Courts in Afghanistan for alleged missionaries caught proslytising to muslims.
This practise of overt discrimination was followed by the Rasiduun Caliphs in their expansionist policies towards the jews & christians and are basis of the present day sharia'h of Saudia, Afghanistan and to certain extent Iran.
Are we OKAY - MAD?
Because this policy of overt discrimination against people of the books & others constitute "literal Quran & literal Sunnah".
2) Eating Foods prepared by Kafirs is Haram. You & I both know this but I applaud you for breaking with this archaic, xenophobic law.
We also know that living in the West or Kafir-land is also considered Haram or against Sharia'h(refer to the thread for this subject). But majority of muslims still prefers to live in the West.
Residing in the West sometimes makes it impossible to openly discriminate against our benefectors by refusing to eat with them or foods prepared by them. Like the Sharia'h says: In Desperate times a devout muslim may even eat pork or anything to survive.
3) The tribes of Quraish were massacred by the armies of the Prophet. The children & women spared were distributed & raised as slaves.
If you disagree with the above then pls respond by staying within the subject matter. I thank you.
Regards.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**
Logic User - they, the verses, mean exactly as they appear!**
[/quote]
Obviously, you have never actually been educated by a maulana in how to interpret the commands of the Quran. The most important of these is that the Quran is best understood in the original arabic; much is lost in the translation to English.
Take the verses in the original post, for instance. The word that has been translated as "friend" in the original arabic in these versus is "waliy". The word is most commonly understood in English as "friend". But the same term is also used to describe the legal guardian of a woman under Shahriah law. As for the situation of dealing with unbelievers, translators of the Qur'an have tried to come to grips with this term by using in their translations words such as "allies, protectors, helpers, bosom friends, etc." One translator uses both "friends and allies" to denote the meaning.
Contrast this with the other word for friend in arabic, "sadeeq", which is used in the Quran 26:61 to denote a personal friend.
"Waliy" and "sadeeq" are clearly used differently in the Quran; they mean different things. A Muslim (and the Muslim State) is prohibited from having a disbeliever as his "waliy". On the other hand, no similar restriction has been placed in the Quran on who a Muslim can have as his "sadeeq", or personal friend.
The best conclusion for my argument here is drawn from the Quran, Verses 8 and 9 of Chapter 60.
***Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.***
**
[quote]
Let's see how you have answered the questions that I asked of you.
1) I asked you a simple question re: freedom of worship for kafirs in Saudia but instead I recd a rather circumventive response.
**
[/quote]
My point is that you cannot use the treatment of non-muslims in Saudi Arabia as an example of how Islam requires non-muslims to be treated, simply because Saudi Arabia only implements the parts of Islam that suit its government. Yes, Saudi forces non-Muslims to keep a low religious profile, but it also horrifically persecutes Muslims who are doing nothing more than practising all of Islam, rather than just the selective parts that suit the government.
**
[quote]
2) Eating Foods prepared by Kafirs is Haram. You & I both know this but I applaud you for breaking with this archaic, xenophobic law.**
[/quote]
Utter rubbish. This is just the usual Shiv Sena-inspired pack of lies. The only food prepared by non-muslims that is not permitted for Muslims is that which contains non-halaal, or non-kosher, meat, and all foods containing alcohol. Imam Malik (712AD-795AD), one of the greatest Muslim scholars of all time and the founder of the widely-followed Maliki School of thought, made it clear that he saw no sin in eating food prepared by non-muslims so long as it had no non-halaal components.
**
[quote]
We also know that living in the West or Kafir-land is also considered Haram or against Sharia'h(refer to the thread for this subject). But majority of muslims still prefers to live in the West.**
[/quote]
More rubbish. Suffiya Bint Abu Huraira (ra), one of the wives of the Prophet (SAWS) lived in Abysinnia, a non-Muslim land, for many years after the Islamic State was established in Medina. And the Prophet (SAWS) still considered her to be a lady of excellent merit and married her.
**
[quote]
3) The tribes of Quraish were massacred by the armies of the Prophet. The children & women spared were distributed & raised as slaves.
**
[/quote]
Bring forth your evidence. A number of books, such as Tahia Al-Ismail's The Life of Mohammed, amongst others, make it clear that following the occupation of Mecca, the only people killed were 4 men who had committed murder for personal reasons.
The tribe which had its menfolk executed and its women and children enslaved was the Banu Qurayza, the Jewish tribe that was allied with the Muslims.
Many years before Mecca was conquered, during a seige where the Banu Qurayza and the Muslims were both surrounded by their common enemy, the Banu Qurayza offered to switch sides and compromise the defensive lines. By the next morning, however, the enemy had been defeated and the Muslims had the Banu Qurayza surrounded.
After a month, the Banu Qurazya requested arbitration in their dispute from the tribe of Al-Aws, who were friendly with them. Al-Aws sent Sa'd ibn Mu'adh to arbitrate. The Jews were happy because they felt that he would get a good deal for them. Both the Prophet (SAWS) and the leaders of Banu Qurayza swore to uphold whatever decision Sa'd came to.
But unknown to the Banu Qurayza, Sa'd had converted to Islam since they last met him. He was very bitter at the Banu Qurayza's betrayal of the Muslims, and so declared that all men of the Banu Qurayza were to be executed and the women and children enslaved.
Since the leaders of Banu Qurayza had promised to abide by the decision, they duly surrendered and were executed. The Prophet (SAWS) was unhappy with the harshness of the decision, but he too had agreed to abide by it. To try and limit the harshness, without breaking his promise, he ordered that families should not be broken up in slavery.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited October 06, 2001).]
"Obviously, you have never actually been educated by a maulana "
and that you think is a bad thinhg?
Whether the New Testament, the Old Testament or any other religious text preaches toleration or not is irrelevant to our current discussion. Other religions may or may not be tolerant. In light of what is happeneing in the world today, many, like myself, are trying to learn the Islamic history, the Quranic teachings and the real Sunna of Prophet Mohammad to see why crimes are being committed against innocent people by certain followers of Islam and the Holy Quran.
The picture that seems to be evoloving is a picture of a doctrine that is determined to conquer the world, one way or another, with no room or toleration for any opposing ideas or ideologies.
Is this true in your opinion? Do you as a Muslim consider it more important to be tolerant toward other religions or more important to convert all the world to your true faith?
Why was the prophet's life full of bloodshed, looting and taking of slaves, including slave women? Why does Holy Quran show acceptance of slavery (perhaps a later topic)? What is the significance of a sword in the flag of Saudi Arabia under the Muslim "kalma?" Why does Allah incite to kill people (2,191; 9,123; 9,5; 8,65; 9;14; 5,34...)?
I look forward to your enlightened response.
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
Is this true in your opinion? Do you as a Muslim consider it more important to be tolerant toward other religions or more important to convert all the world to your true faith?
[/quote]
Islam requires one to tolerate and respect other faiths because if not, then the followers of that faith will not tolerate and respect Islam. If someone does not respect Islam, then how can he/she be expected to listen to the message of Islam and choose to convert?
**
[quote]
Why was the prophet's life full of bloodshed, looting and taking of slaves, including slave women? Why does Holy Quran show acceptance of slavery (perhaps a later topic)?
**
[/quote]
His life was full of bloodshed because there were many who wished to kill him and his followers because they upset the status quo : whenever the Muslims fought a battle it was because their survival was threatened. Looting was a way of financially crippling the enemy so that they lacked the funds to rebuild their armed forces and pose a menace once more.
The Prophet (SAWS) only ever owned one slave, who he quickly released and raised as his adopted son. Slavery in Islam is very different from slavery in the western sense: Islam grants many rights and legal protection to slaves.
**
[quote]
What is the significance of a sword in the flag of Saudi Arabia under the Muslim "kalma?" **
[/quote]
The Saudi flag is the same as the war banner of the the Prophet (SAWS). During Saudi Arabia's civil war last century, the Saud family used the flag in an attempt to win supprt by trying to show that they were the best Muslims in the war. When they won, they made their war flag into the national flag as a symbol of their victory.
**
[quote]
Why does Allah incite to kill people (2,191; ,123; 9,5; 8,65; 9;14; 5,34...)?
I look forward to your enlightened response. **
[/quote]
1.) Instructions to kill refer to those who pose a clear and present danger to the lives of Muslims and Islam, and those who carry out gross infractions of the laws by which God wishes us to live our lives.
2.) God gave us life, he has the right to tell us when to take it as well.
As I had suspected, not one answer from fellow Guppies concerning the Tolerance level of ALL Faiths.
Instead, we see people hellbent on satisfying their own cravings and agendas in knocking Islam.
The originator of this post had posted the following issues related to Tolerance and then conveniently decided to sidetrack and avoid the same issues concerning other Faiths and is still only concerned about Islam.
Not too biased!!!!!!!
Anyway, the following was originally posted:
No friends from outsiders->III.118
No friends with Jews, Christians->V. 51
No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
Killing Idolators->IX.5
Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers ->V.33,34
So what does the Bible say about the above:
Genesis 34
25
Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male.
Exodus 32
27
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
Leviticus 26
29
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
Numbers 21
35
So they struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army, leaving them no survivors. And they took possession of his land.
Numbers 31
31
So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32
The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep,
33
72,000 cattle,
34
61,000 donkeys
35
and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36
The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep,
37
of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38
36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39
30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40
16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.
Deuteronomy 2
33
the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.
34
At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[1] them--men, women and children. We left no survivors.
Deuteronomy 20
13
When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14
As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
Joshua 6
21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it--men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
Joshua 10
34
Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it.
35
They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.
Judges 1
6
Adoni-Bezek fled, but they chased him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and big toes.
Judges 9
45
All that day Abimelech pressed his attack against the city until he had captured it and killed its people. Then he destroyed the city and scattered salt over it.
1 Samuel 15
3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"
Ezekiel 9
6
Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
Genesis 19
30
Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave.
31
One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth.
32
Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33
That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father."
35
So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36
So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.
37
The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[1] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today.
38
The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi[2] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.
I think the above verses are more than enough for now. So please read and digest. Theres plenty more from where that came form!
And I haven't even touched on the Vedas yet.
So please feel free to comment on TOLERANCE.
i do question the use of books written thousands of years ago as infalliable, historically accurate documents and sources for ethics/morality......
seems ridiculous, when all i need is my spirit/conscience......
and the capability to evolve........
g.o.d.
gaining one's defintion.......
[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited October 07, 2001).]
Tolerance according to America is whats in its interests.
Islam is the truth (tolerance is a western term which is abused).
We follow Islam in the way Allah (SWT) commands.
We have alliances when we are allowed, with who we are allowed.
We fight when we are commanded.
We kill when we are allowed. - To spread Islam - defend muslims
We lie when we are commanded.- war i deceit
We kill unarmed when we have to. - Taif he (saw) fired catapult at enemy when asked about women,children he said they are from them.
Lets not view truth and falsehood through western thinking, influence, ideas etc.. They pressure us into this defensive approach.
Allah (swt says {tmq} "Fighting is commanded on you, it might be that you dislike a thing which is good for you, it might be that you like a thing which is bad for you. ALLAH KNOWS AND YOU DO NOT KNOW."
So ISLAM is the truth and the standard and if we discuss with kuffar we have to address the belief before its rules, because we accept the rules only because of our belief. Their is no reason accept obedience to the creator for most of the sharia rul;es, we do not rationalise all Islamic rules.