Go and become a suicide bomber. Thats your definition of Islam. Right??
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*
waitaminute, islam is very WESTERN.
and that's the reason why european christians and asiatic muslims continiously bump heads. they, as westerners, are both competing for control of the entire planet. they do NOT respect the rights, cultures, traditions,etc of others, they only respect their own and with comtempt, look at others. thus, they seek to impose their way of life on everyone else.
(eg: the dude above me, saying muslims have a right to fight to spread islam ........ compare with the american ideology: that democracy, free market capitalism, should be implemented everywhere)
islam has the same roots and all the hallmarks of western culture:
-it is patriarchal.
-it has an orientation towards materalism over spiritualism. (eg: the heaven described in the quran, that man is separate from god and the rest of nature, land ownership rights, etc)
-it "universalizes", that is to say westerners like muslims, europeans, americans believe that their culture/beliefs/way of life/etc is optimal for every group rather than just for a specific group.
[eg: "Islam is the ONLY (ALLAH'S) truth and must be spread across the world, across cultures"........Islam is supposedly a religion that "transcends" cultures. Thus "cultures" as viable entities that define one's life, standards and psychological functioning, are negate with the "Islamic" view. Instead of Islam being seen as an emanation of Arabic culture, IT (or Allah) assert itself as THE WAY of the UNIVERSE and all cultures are subordinate. However in practice, the more one becomes closer to practicing "TRUE" Islam, one becomes culturally more "Arabic" in orientation]
-it tend towards seeing the world in distinct binary terms: black or white, good or bad, god or satan, instead of in terms of compliments and gradations.
-its preference of Empiricism/External knowledge over Holistic/internal (self-knowledge).
that is knowing based on one's own understanding instead of using a RIGID ideology (tradition adhered to without question and without ability to adapt)
i have never seen zen monks/ taosist/ or afrikan teachers just going out and "teaching all nations" about their way in the same way as islamic or christian preachers. its more along the lines of "figure it out for yourself" or "if you want to learn, come, and i'll teach" BUT NEVER "everybody needs/should do it this or they will fry" type style.
Ill be honest: I am not "tolerant" of westerners, whether they are muslims, christians, jews, or aryan-hindus. They disrespect, destroy the planet and its inhabitants. Therefore, I make it a point to challenge their way of thinking.
[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited October 08, 2001).]
I was reading what you said. Some of what you say seems to be contradictory to what the Holy Quran, the hadiths and the Islamic history says. I am starting to find that many Muslims seem to blindly believe in the religion without truly learning about it.
How can you call people from other religions you friends when the Quran explicitly prohibits it? Muslims fought wars not just in self defense but also for the expansion of the Islamic faith and doctrine. The prophet owned many slaves, including female slaves. He traded in slaves as was the custom in the 7th century Arabia. He also freed slaves. In Mecca there was a complete bazzar for slave trade. The hadiths are full of issues related to slaves, their rights and their treatment. In early Islamic culture, slavery was infact exactly as we think of slavery, with salves having almost no rights.
You keep wanting to examin Islamic teaching in light of the teachings of the West or other religions such as Christianity. The teacings of Islam and the Holy Quran have to stand on their own if they have to meet their claim of the one and only true message from the God. They have to meet the criteria of all peace loving people of the world that any message from God can't preach killing of other humans, enslavement of other humans or intolerance toward their respective beliefs. Does Islam meet this basic criteria?
I look forward to your learned response.
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
How can you call people from other religions you friends when the Quran explicitly prohibits it?
[/quote]
I like the way you blindly ignore every single argument I've posted. Nowhere does the Quran forbid muslims from having non-muslims as friends. Prohibitions only apply with repsect to a muslim state siding with non-muslims in preference to muslims, i.e. current Turkish foreign policy.
The Prophet (SAWS) was married to a lady who was Christian for 2 years into their marriage, after which she converted to Islam. Are you implying that during those 2 years he never treated her as a friend?
The Holy Quran states in Al-Mâ'idah:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them.
Seems very clear to me the will of Allah as described by the Holy Quran.
I guess the area that we are getting into is the important area of interpretation of scriptures. This area of interpretations futher leads to the entire subject of evolution of the religion and its beliefs. All religions have evolved over time. Islam too has evolved somewhat over the years, however there are many in the Islamic world that insist upon literal interpretation of the scriptures and a creation of a society which is identical to Arabia of 630 AD. They fight evolution of this religion. This problem is futher exagerated when there is lack of secular education in Muslim areas of the world. Students study strictly the religious teachings in religious schools. They are not exposed to secular ideas and no opposing ideas to their religion.
Islam doesn't tolerate any opposition. Islam doesn't tolerate any differing ideas or even a discussion of any opposing ideas. If anyone even says anything against Islam, there is war. Dr. Younis Sheikh, a Medical lecturer in Islamabad was recently sentenced to death by a Pakistani court just for speaking words that were found to be anti Islam! Great religion of toleration! Westerners were jailed in Afghanistan and face death for preaching their religion.
Regardless of exceptions or circumstances,
The Holy Quran instructs to kill DUE TO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS:
Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
I know you see the world as black and white. There is firstly the world of Islam and then there is the other world that needs to be CONVERTED to the true ways of Islam. I know, given your background, you may be feeling the urge now to wage war on me. I hope you are one of those who are open minded and open to a free discussion of these subjects. We learn more by exchanging opposing ideas. There are 6 billion humans with thousands of different religious beliefs. We must learn to be TOLERANT toward each other. We must let Islam evolve to fit this day and age.
Sigh and so the circle begins once more.
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**The Holy Quran states in Al-Mâ'idah:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them.
Seems very clear to me the will of Allah as described by the Holy Quran.***
[/quote]
Indeed it is. Muslims are prohibited from taking Jews and Christians as their protectors (Auliya), but no prohibition exists about taking them as their personal friends (Sadeeq).
**
[quote]
Dr. Younis Sheikh, a Medical lecturer in Islamabad was recently sentenced to death by a Pakistani court just for speaking words that were found to be anti Islam! Great religion of toleration! Westerners were jailed in Afghanistan and face death for preaching their religion.**
[/quote]
Do a search of this forum. These 2 topics have already been dealt with extensively.
**
[quote]
Regardless of exceptions or circumstances,
The Holy Quran instructs to kill DUE TO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS:
Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.**
[/quote]
Again, you ignore the surrounding verses. This verse appears in the middle of a block of text detailing how to deal wit the non-muslims who violate peace treaties with Muslims. When considering the meaning of a verse of the Quran, one must consider both the surrounding verses and the circumstances under which the verse was revealed in order to understand its true meaning.
Or else someone could look at the verse that instructs Muslims not to be drunk at prayer, and interpret it to mean that you can get drunk as long as you are not intoxicated when you pray.
**
[quote]
I know, given your background, you may be feeling the urge now to wage war on me.**
[/quote]
Again, you quite blithely ignore the parts of the Quran that state that war is only permissible in self defence.
**
[quote]
We must let Islam evolve to fit this day and age.**
[/quote]
Far from it. We must adjust the values of this day and age to fit Islam.
Logic User
As you have conveniently missed or ignored the Jewish and Christian Scriptures concerning Tolerance, which I had previously posted.
I am now giving you a CLASSIC quote from the Bible, which should be enough to shut you up for at least a Millenium and re-evaluate your position prior to attacking Islam! Here we go!
MATTHEW
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Or do you think that the above verse means that 'the cow jumped over the moon'.
As I have stated many a time. Before criticising your neighbours garden, make sure that yours is in pristine condition first.