Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
I don't think India needs to justify its secular credentials to anyone, and most of all to Pakistan which was formed on the basis of religion and today is on the verge of disintegrating due to religion.
That aside, I don't believe that forming independent India as a secular state was the best thing to do.
I don't think India needs to justify its secular credentials to anyone, and most of all to Pakistan which was formed on the basis of religion and today is on the verge of disintegrating due to religion.
That aside, I don't believe that** forming independent India** as a secular state was the best thing to do.
You brought Pakistan to the discussion. Aren't you obsessed with Pakistan?
*There is no mention of Pakistan in the title of thread.
*
Thanks you for showing your desperation.:)
Just to remind you and correct your thought.
India was NOT formed as an independent India.
It was formed as a left over AFTER what was formed as Independent Pakistan.
This is why India has and **will always have **independence day AFTER Pakistan Independence day.:)
I don't think India needs to justify its secular credentials to anyone, and most of all to Pakistan which was formed on the basis of religion and today is on the verge of disintegrating due to religion.
That aside, I don't believe that forming independent India as a secular state was the best thing to do.
It is very easy to be carried away by the rhetoric and believe that it was not in India's best interest to adopt secularism. India has always been a land where foreigners were accepted and many of them have made India their home. Also it would have not made economic sense to be non secular. All things said and done, India depended a lot on the Gulf for crucial foreign remittances during the late 80s and early 90s. If India was more of a Hindu nationalistic country, I dont know Indians would have been welcome anywhere. The contribution of minorities is substantial and cannot be ignored.
It is a pity that you while sitting in a different country which does not espouse religious supremacy should want the same in your home country.
Yes there are places where it is difficult to get beef. I have lived in India all my life and am a beef eater. I did not find it difficult to get beef whenever I wanted to have beef. It is a matter of perception that it is difficult to get beef.
What is the alternative. Do you believe people should be treated as second rate citizens based on their beliefs. Look at it from the other perspective. Just because you are from a minority community you dont get the same rights as the rest of the people. How just is that.
What is the alternative. Growing up in a dictatorship would have made you immune to the good aspects of democracy. When you criticise something it is essential that we look at the big picture and understand if there are viable alternatives. Name one system which is a worthy competitor of democracy.
Inspite fo the crackdown on civil liberties in the name of common good in the secular countries, we have many people who are desperate to get into these countries. I dont see a similar rush to go to some of the countries which do not practise secularism. It is time that you get a neutral perspective on things and be blinded by empty rhetoric.
Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
In the state capital of India...New Delhi....at some running roads, the minority section of India, the Muslims offer their friday namaz....disturb traffic...and do not care for rules and regulations....for the sake of secularism...may be.
Lets assume: I provide you a link and it is a reality what I posted based on the link.
1-What are you going to do with that? or
2-what are you going to do then?
3-And what is this got to do with 1/6th or whatever world's population?
Secular or not is the issue you yourself started.
Link may lead me to whole story U was referring to. Quoting just few words from a whole editorial cant do justice to the real issue.
I will be trying to convince U that just one statement from a typical politician who happens to be Law Minister Of India can not really make India anything less secular.
I was just making U aware the size of India in terms of population, this definetely has noting to do with topic at hand right now. So I must say sorry to bring it out.
BTW in the whole discussion, U or anyone else hasnt brought up any real reason why U guys dont consider India Secular. I will appreciate if U bring forward some reasons for it.
Posted by diwana
[quote]
This is exactly I was expecting from the thread starter too. But it did come anyway.
*The apologetic, defensive, misleading and cunning response. *
No one is asking for or talking about perfectness but these kind of responses give the person a false sense of security. Oh! I know, no one will be able to dispute what I said since no one can come forward and say Yeah we want and expect perfectness from you.
Old tactics to dodge the issue.
Be an honest person and admit **there is no such thing as secular India **except on a piece of paper or in some parts of ' media'. That's a true spirit.
Keep believing it is more secular than any other country. After all so many people on this earth believe on myths/mythology.
[/quote]
Again not a single reason but some excellently crafted words of cynicism. Definetely not good contents for an intellectual and friendly discussion.
*I REQUEST U, PLZ GIVE US UR REASONS THAT MAKES U FEEL THAT INDIA IS NOT SECULAR NATION. *
I m sure that u will honour my humble request.
[quote]
Posted by Faris Udeen
Personally i don't think it's a pure secular state.
But then again not all secualr states are that succesfull anyway. If India is as liberal as brother Raj_ind says then why don't in some areas Hindu's allow for muslims to slaughter cattle? This is a state law wich forbids cow slaughter even in some muslim majority areas.
Then again i could be wrong and some of these crackdowns could have changed since i was last there.
[/quote]
Which state U consider as successful brother? Plz name a few for my sake.
Hindus have their religious sentiments attatched with Cow. (right or wrong is another topic altogether) Thats why its unlawful to slaughter cows in India. Given the equal rights that Muslims and other minorities enjoy in India, its not a big deal that muslims stay away from Cow's meat only. There are another cattle too freely available lawfully to be slaughtered.
To conclude I again repeat my request U guys to come forward with some realistic reasons for ur claim. Playing with mere words, and keeping on typing that India is not secular state wont help this discussion to move ahead.
just to heat up the discussion, its the only secular country in the world
you name some religion, it exist in india
It is very easy to be carried away by the rhetoric and believe that it was not in India's best interest to adopt secularism. India has always been a land where foreigners were accepted and many of them have made India their home. Also it would have not made economic sense to be non secular. All things said and done, India depended a lot on the Gulf for crucial foreign remittances during the late 80s and early 90s. If India was more of a Hindu nationalistic country, I dont know Indians would have been welcome anywhere. The contribution of minorities is substantial and cannot be ignored. It is a pity that you while sitting in a different country which does not espouse religious supremacy should want the same in your home country.
The problem with pseudo-secular folks is that they think being a religious/non-secular state necessarily means persecution of minorities. One can be a religious state, while still respecting all religions.
Anyways, coming back to the topic - secularism means equality of religions. India cannot call itself secular when it offers preferential treatment to some religions (Haj subsidy, Muslim personal law etc.)
Also, "secularism" allows political party to play their devious games in the name of religion through vote bank politics & minority appeasement.
Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
Social Cause – Committed to social thought and action
Since it was asked. Happy to post.
Nothing which the ‘outsiders’ saying. The editorial is by TOI.
You will not have choice but to deny the ‘allegations’ by TOI and call it just an article written based on one event. But unfortunately the explanation in it is based on multiple events acknowledged by the writer.
Its not about one politician either as it is mentioned in the article.
The sentence which I quoted is here:
"The secular credentials of the Indian state have just taken another knock. Unfortunately, Bhardwaj is not an exception. Most politicians crawl when the religious extremists ask them to kneel. They rarely argue; instead they walk the path of appeasement. The sangh parivar as well as fundamentalist outfits claiming to represent Muslims, Sikhs and Christians realised this weakness of our secular system long ago. Parties like Congress have had to pay a political price for refusing to confront attempts to mix religion with activities of the state. Respecting one’s right to religious belief is not the same as allowing that right to override the secular character of the Indian state. Indian secularism is not irreligious."
just to heat up the discussion, its the only secular country in the world
you name some religion, it exist in india
I don't think you even know the meaning of secularism. Its not what you wrote. Sometimes ignorance is a bliss. :-)
Hey can we be practical here. 
If India is a religious state do you think Christians and Muslims would be able to practise their faith in peace. Some pundit would have a bad dream and then blame the minorities for the same.
In a sense I agree with you.There is some preferential treatment to some religions. Inspite of it growth has been very dismal. There are different reasons for the same, but we would have to agree that without secularism and preferetial treatement, growth(however negligible) would have been very difficult. It is not just the minorities who get preferential treatment. Reservation based on castes also exist. It is very easy to get carried away and say that reservation should be rooted out and all people be treated equal.
Do you think “secularism” is the only reason political parties play vote bank politics. Please, I expected better from you. :o
If India was a religious state, vote bank politics would have been based on castes.
Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
I will not judge the country by the action of few politicians. Yes there are right wing, left wing and centralist parties in India and each espousing their own cause. However, the greatest test of secularism is the practice of different religions in the land. Some of the examples are:
1) There are thousands or mosques, churches which are existing and even constructed every year. Government grants land at no cost or minimal cost for the same.
2) A muslim or a christian boy can marry a Hindu girl and not go to jail.
3) A Hindu can officially convert into other religion.
I am not sure about a Christian boy marrying a hindu girl and not going to jail.. I think that the parents of the kids should be sent to jail for child marriage 
[quote]
Posted by diwana
Since it was asked. Happy to post.
Nothing which the 'outsiders' saying. The editorial is by TOI.
You will not have choice but to deny the 'allegations' by TOI and call it just an article written based on one event. But unfortunately the explanation in it is based on multiple events acknowledged by the writer.
Its not about one politician either as it is mentioned in the article.
The sentence which I quoted is here:
"The secular credentials of the Indian state have just taken another knock. Unfortunately, Bhardwaj is not an exception. Most politicians crawl when the religious extremists ask them to kneel. They rarely argue; instead they walk the path of appeasement. The sangh parivar as well as fundamentalist outfits claiming to represent Muslims, Sikhs and Christians realised this weakness of our secular system long ago. Parties like Congress have had to pay a political price for refusing to confront attempts to mix religion with activities of the state. Respecting one's right to religious belief is not the same as allowing that right to override the secular character of the Indian state. Indian secularism is not irreligious."
[/quote]
My dear brother, how this article makes India a not-secular state is still not understandable to me. Yes the writer has criticized secular credentials of India. But this is often done in our country. We have a media which has complete freedom unlike in some other countries. It might be based on many incidents, but can I ask U how many incidents at the best? And can u quote the incidents to make things clear? Little knowledge is very dangerous thing brother. So be carefull. Just to again remind U that we have a population of over one billion ppls. So problems may arise at times, and an independent media is duty bound to make noise. Just like article in question. Perhaps U are not very much familier with freedom of press it seems.
I suggest U that U dig out something more meaningful to justify ur allegation. I feel that no sane person can see material searched by U, to be competent enough to prove ur claim, *Which is that India is not a secular state. *
Try again.
Peace.
[quote]
Punjabee in USA
The problem with pseudo-secular folks is that they think being a religious/non-secular state necessarily means persecution of minorities. One can be a religious state, while still respecting all religions.
[/quote]
And the example is..........?
[quote]
Anyways, coming back to the topic - secularism means equality of religions. India cannot call itself secular when it offers preferential treatment to some religions (Haj subsidy, Muslim personal law etc.)
[/quote]
It depends on ur mentality how U take things. for instance with hindus in majority, some can consider it a more tolrant approach towards minorities. Making India an example of religious tolrance. (Forget how fanatics take this)
[quote]
Also, "secularism" allows political party to play their devious games in the name of religion through vote bank politics & minority appeasement
[/quote]
A little price to pay for adopting the best governing system. Good things comes for a price.:) But it can be checked by more political awareness and education.
Peace.
That is a hypothetical scenario, but in the history of Hinduism there have been very few instances of aggression against other religions. Protection of minorities can also be enacted through a law.
Lets not confuse the analysis by bringing in castes. The fact of the matter is that its not correct to call India “secular” since Muslims and Hindus are treated differently.
Read my post again. I am talking about religion based politics, which is exacerbated by this “pseudo-secular” nature of our constitution.
Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
Ahem...beef is available in many states.
okay, pretty insignificant stuff to contribute.
i do think that theoretically, India is one of the best secular states in the world.
but when you consider the likes of BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiromani Akali Dal, Muslim League blah blah, it is plainly not.
and incidents like Gujarat riots, Anti-Sikh Riots, Orissa, Mangalore etc dont really support India's secular image.
though it must be seen that only a few do such things, and are hugely resented by the majority of the nation.
and counting into the privileges minorities have, well yeah, India is pretty much doing good for itself.
but then, is there really a secular state anywhere??
My dear brother, how this article makes India a not-secular state is still not understandable to me. Yes the writer has criticized secular credentials of India. But this is often done in our country. We have a media which has complete freedom unlike in some other countries. It might be based on many incidents, but can I ask U how many incidents at the best? And can u quote the incidents to make things clear? Little knowledge is very dangerous thing brother. So be carefull. Just to again remind U that we have a population of over one billion ppls. So problems may arise at times, and an independent media is duty bound to make noise. Just like article in question. Perhaps U are not very much familier with freedom of press it seems.
I suggest U that U dig out something more meaningful to justify ur allegation. I feel that no sane person can see material searched by U, to be competent enough to prove ur claim, *Which is that India is not a secular state. *
Try again.
Peace.
Please read my post and you responded exactly as I predicted.
Be careful? What does that mean?
If you are still not understanding what is said in the article then its sad.
And there is nothing about freedom of press or media here that we are discussing. Many countries have media or press questioning the governmental affairs not so particular for TOI. By praising the role of media will not get you anywhere. Just see what is said.
Government is run by people. These include politicians. If politicians act against what is portrayed then whats there to continue to portray and fool others?
Its a plural when it is said politicians.
However, my job is not to 'dig' something to make you convinced. All One can do is to open eyes and look around.
You mentioned if the reason is given then you will understand. However all you have said is that you do not understand the significance of the article.
Please read below my other posts.
Ahem...beef is available in many states. okay, pretty insignificant stuff to contribute.
i do think that theoretically, India is one of the best secular states in the world. but when you consider the likes of BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiromani Akali Dal, Muslim League blah blah, it is plainly not. and incidents like Gujarat riots, Anti-Sikh Riots, Orissa, Mangalore etc dont really support India's secular image. though it must be seen that only a few do such things, and are hugely resented by the majority of the nation. and counting into the** privileges minorities have*, well yeah, India is pretty much doing good for itself. but then,* is there really a secular state anywhere??**
I think you are close to what I wanted to say.
As it is mentioned by PIU also (if I understood him right), one does not need a secular state for giving privileges to minorities.
It is very difficult to have a secular state in its real sense when state is run by people and its impossible to think people will not think in terms of religion even when they are dealing with governmental affairs. This is aside from other gains such as winning a seat in election or getting monitory support from people in the name of religion.
Portraying India as a secular state is just a false belief.
But off course people are free to believe whatever they feel comfortable with.
Re: Is India A Secular Nation?
One thing I would like to add is if we see secularism practiced by a country like France, it has taken the meaning of secularism in completely other direction.
Meaning:
Secularism= anti-religious laws.
Based on not allowing people to even wear religiously symbolic clothes or items for sikhs, christians, muslims and jews etc. in govt. schools or those private schols getting govt. assistance.
So in this regard its not the tolerance but **intolerance to people practicing religion **what is considered secularism by French. This is opposite to what one might consider as the basis of India being a secular state or is being portrayed in this thread.