Is Christianity the only way?

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Originally posted by simplepen:
Just because a person claims to be a Christian, does NOT mean they Have Jesus in Their Heart.

Exactly, just because someone claims their way to be the only way, especially Christianity doesn’t mean that it is the only way or the right way.

yet, even in Muslim Countries, where You do NOT have the sinful things about as you have mention, is there a single one of you WITHOUT SIN?

That doesn’t make your religion superior over mines, matter of fact it doesn’t make it any better at all. I have never said that we are without sin, but the rules that has been given to us by Allah (swt), I don’t doubt that there is any. The fact is, we as Muslims are less sinful then you as Christians, and that’s what matters, facts, not assumptions or hearsay.

So therefore You are no different than I, or anyone else upon this Earth.

Exactly, so what’s this drama all about Jesus is the only way?

Living a Life Pleasing to The Creator, is when One is FREE to CHOOSE to commit Sin, and yet does NOT. The LAWS of your Land, is in Fact The reasons you do NOT have such Openness of SIN, yet your People are just as sinful and any other upon this EARTH. FEAR of The LAW, is what keeps such SIN Hidden within the Hearts of Many among You.

Not always, matter of fact, many Muslims are more afraid from the law of GOD then the laws made by men.

Where I come from in Pakistan, there is no such thing as the “LAW OF THE LAND”. There is only the law of the GUN. If I happen to like your daughter or sister, I can take her as my toy with all means if I happen to have more guns then yours. But you will never see such things in our areas, basically because of the fact that the whole majority of that land is devoted Muslims. They fallow extracts of Shariah (Islamic Law) which they call Pakhtunwali. You can ask any Pakistani about NWFP and the tribal areas there. Ask them how much control does the Pakistani government have there. Matter of fact, these people have never been ruled by any governing authority. They are what some might call “true independents”. I’m not saying that these areas are without sin, but it will for sure put your ‘law of the land’ theory to doubt. Besides, if your government has laws that allows you to commit such sinful acts, then it is a shame to you and your religion because then the rulers expect you to be of such deeds. The government expects you and your religion to be of no good. And who is to be held more responsible in the eyes of Christ then? The one that does the deeds, or the one that allows it to happen?

A man who Lusts after another man's Wife in his Heart, but does NOT act upon it, is STILL GUILTY before GOD for Adultery.

And what about a man who lusts after another mans wife, but does not act upon it because from the fear of GOD?

Is he guilty in the name in the eyes of GOD? NO! Because we are told by Allah (swt) that beside His divine authority, there is another thing, and that thing is called Shatian (Satan).

A man who looks upon a Child Lustfully, and does NOT act upon it due to FEAR of being Caught, STILL is GUILTY Before GOD for the SIN of His HEART.

And what about a man who doesn’t do it because he knows that its wrong? What about a man who doesn’t do it because he knows that he will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment?

People who wish to molest will molest without a care for the law. Look at the Catholic Christian priests; don’t tell me that American law allows such acts.

The ONLY FREEDOM from DEATH FOREVER, is JESUS CHRIST THE LORD. Through Jesus, The WAGES of SIN Requiring DEATH has Been PAID for All Mankind, but each Heart MUST Ask for This GIFT from GOD with Their HEART. There is NOT a single man upon this earth who can EARN his way to the CREATOR by Rightousness, for The Most Rightous man upon this earth, is but a Filthy scanvanger of this Earth before GOD HOLY GLORY!!! Peace Be with You.

The sacrifices of Jesus and the torture he went through was to show the humankind that it only takes a small little man to have enough hope for humanity and to put it on the right path. It doesn’t take GOD the glorious to come down in a human form to save this puny planet which is not even the size of an atom compared to his glorious creations.

p.s sorry for the late reply, busy these days at work :)

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However, the Jews do have a right to fight for their promised land.
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Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Tomasso ,

you mean after killing and oppressing its original occupants with the help of the Christians, don’t you?

The Jews and Christians have willfully plotted this struggles and atrocities because they believe they need to built their temple after erasing the current Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock for the return of Christ.

They are purposefully oppressing the Palestinians and causing them to kill themselves in order to defend their homeland, to chase them out of their homeland and deny them their state, whose capital was Jerusalem from ancient times.

[quote]
I am a Christian who doesn't think the Jews lost the Holyland due to the Crucifixtion. No verse claims this.
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Ibrahim says: which means you do not understand what is revealed in the Gospel

Kindly read;

  1. Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, ** "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. **

  2. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

Matthew 24:15. "So when you see standing in the holy place ** `the abomination that causes desolation,'** spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand—

  1. then let ** those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.**

Mark 21:20. "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, ** you will know that its desolation is near. **

  1. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and ** let those in the country not enter the city. **

    1. For this is the time of ** punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.**
    2. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. ** Jerusalem will be trampled** on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Ibrahim says: now lets narrow down to the time when the Jews tried to harm Christ to understand how God destroyed Jerusalem and up rooted the Jews.

Kindly read…..

Matthew27:45. From the sixth hour until the ninth hour ** darkness came over all the land.**

27: 51. At that moment ** the curtain of the temple was torn** in two from top to bottom. ** The earth shook and the rocks split.**

  1. ** The tombs broke open ** and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

27:54. When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the ** earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, ** and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

Ibrahim says : so

1) it became dark, when they tried to crucify him, which means people would have limited vision and also a lot of FEAR will set in and people will not be on the streets witnessing a procession to crucify Christ but in anxiety as to what will happen next.

2) There was ** earthquake, which caused the rocks to split ** and the temple curtain of the holy of holies to be torn apart, which means the collapse of the temple and ** tombs were broken and images were seen**

Tomasso, Tell me who would be hanging around to witness how Christ was crucified in such circumstances??

Which is why ** in one place the gospel records Christ was nailed to the cross and in another it records he was hanged on the tree**

Which means there was chaos and none actually witnessed this event or they were led to believe something to that effect had taken place,** which NEVER took place **

You must also understand the devil knew many things including the fact that Christ will NEVER be allowed to be harmed by man

Matthew 4:6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down.** For it is written:** "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands,** so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "**

Ibrahim says: in addition you must understand even the records of what happened has problems,

Kindly compare

Matthew 27:32. As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.

With

John 17. ** Carrying his own cross,** he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

Ibrahim says: all these are fabrications and conjectures which seem to have crept into the Gospel because it was redesigned for Christian consumption.

Meaning Pual decided that by hook or crook, he will market Christianity to the gentiles and it would have been a worthwhile project for the Roman king who would have minted money as well as unite the sun worshippers and Christians.

Kindly read Galatians to understand Paul and his design.

So you may wonder who wrote Matthew? And you will find the answer in Matthew

Matthew 9:9. As Jesus went on from there, ** he saw a man named Matthew** sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, ** and Matthew got up and followed him.**

Ibrahim says: which means Matthew was not written by Matthew but by an anonymous author

So you may ask who wrote John? And you will find the answer for that in John

John 21:24 ** This is the disciple** who testifies to these things ** and who wrote them down. ** We know that his testimony is true.

  1. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Ibrahim says: which means it is written by an anonymous disciple and what he says is False in the sense that, the words of Christ , as found in all the Gospels , is so little, that it will only fit into a full size news paper page.

To understand the Christian story you need to read about the Babylonian passion play concerning Baal and you will end up finding out the truth that both Baal and Christ passion plays are very similar. meaning it was a recast.

** Thus the Gospel versions is a conjecture and the Holy spirit confirmed that it was a conjecture ** when it revealed

4: 157 That ** they said (in boast)** "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah";** but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow ** for of a surety they killed him not.

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** what the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve **

christianity did not destroy local culture language or the identity.


Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the Church; the Greek language, having reigned for centuries over philosophy, became the vehicle of Christian literature and ritual; the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the Mass. Other pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist result. From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity, the Last Judgment, and a personal immortality of reward and punishment; from Egypt the adoration of the Mother and Child, and the mystic theosophy that made Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, and obscured the Christian creed; there, too, Christian monasticism would find its exemplars and its source. From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother; from Syria the resurrection drama of Adonis; from Thrace, perhaps, the cult of Dionysus, the dying and saving god. From Persia came millennarianism, the "ages of the world," the "final conflagration," the dualism of Satan and God, of Darkness and Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the "Light shining in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it Out." The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds." (The Story of Civilization, Caesar and Christ, Will Durant, Part III, 1944, p. 595)

In reply to Ibrihims false notion that the palestinians were driven from thier land, well it is not thier land and here is the evidence as written by an American congressman. Prove this otherwise as you see fit.

The first reason is that Israel has the right to the land because of all of the archeological evidence. That is reason, No. 1. All the archeological evidence supports it.

Every time there is a dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that Israelis have had a presence there for 3,000 years. They have been there for a long time. The coins, the cities, the pottery, the culture--there are other people, groups that are there, but there is no mistaking the fact that Israelis have been present in that land for 3,000 years.

It predates any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Israelis have.

Even the Egyptians of today are not racial Egyptians of 2,000, 3,000 years ago. They are primarily an Arab people. The land is called Egypt, but they are not the same racial and ethnic stock as the old Egyptians of the ancient world. The first Israelis are in fact descended from the original Israelites. The first proof, then, is the archeology.

The second proof of Israel's right to the land is the historic right. History supports it totally and completely. We know there has been an Israel up until the time of the Roman Empire. The Romans conquered the land. Israel had no homeland, although Jews were allowed to live there. They were driven from the land in two dispersions: One was in 70 A,.D. and the other was in 135 A.D. But there was always a Jewish presence in the land.

The Turks, who took over about 700 years ago and ruled the land up until about World War I, had
control. Then the land was conquered by the British. The Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany. The British knew they had to do something to punish Turkey, and also to break up that empire that was going to be a part of the whole effort of Germany in World War I. So the British sent troops against the Turks in the Holy Land.

One of the generals who was leading the British armies was a man named Allenby. Allenby was a
Bible-believing Christian. He carried a Bible with him everywhere he went and he knew the significance of Jerusalem.

The night before the attack against Jerusalem to drive out the Turks, Allenby prayed that God would allow him to capture the city without doing damage to the holy places.

That day, Allenby sent World War I biplanes over the city of Jerusalem to do a reconnaissance mission. You have to understand that the Turks had at that time never seen an airplane. So there they were, flying around. They looked in the sky and saw these fascinating inventions and did not know what they were, and they were terrified by them. Then they were told they were going to be opposed by a man named Allenby the next day, which means, in their language, man sent from God'' orprophet from God.'' They dared not fight against a prophet from God, so the next morning, when Allenby went to take Jerusalem, he went in and captured it without firing a single shot.

The British Government was grateful to Jewish people around the world, particularly to one Jewish chemist who helped them manufacture niter. Niter is an ingredient that was used in nitroglycerin which was sent over from the New World. But they did not have a way of getting it to England. The German U-boats were shooting on the boats, so most of the niter they were trying to import to make nitroglycerin was at the bottom of the ocean. But a man named Weitzman, a Jewish chemist, discovered a way to make it from materials that existed in England. As a result, they were able to continue that supply.

The British at that time said they were going to give the Jewish people a homeland. That is all a part of history. It is all written down in history. They were gratified that the Jewish people, the bankers, came through and helped finance the war.

The homeland that Britain said it would set aside consisted of all of what is now Israel and all of what was then the nation of Jordan--the whole thing. That was what Britain promised to give the Jews in 1917.

In the beginning, there was some Arab support for this action. There was not a huge Arab population in the land at that time, and there is a reason for that. The land was not able to sustain a large population of people. It just did not have the development it needed to handle those people, and the land was not really wanted by anybody. Nobody really wanted this land. It was considered to be worthless land.

I want the Presiding Officer to hear what Mark Twain said. And, of course, you may have read
Huckleberry Finn'' andTom Sawyer.'' Mark Twain--Samuel Clemens--took a tour of Palestine in
1867. This is how he described that land. We are talking about Israel now. He said:

A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful
expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.

Where was this great Palestinian nation? It did not exist. It was not there. Palestinians were not there. Palestine was a region named by the Romans, but at that time it was under the control of Turkey, and there was no large mass of people there because the land would not support them.

This is the report that the Palestinian Royal Commission, created by the British, made. It quotes an account of the conditions on the coastal plain along the Mediterranean Sea in 1913. This is the Palestinian Royal Commission. They said:

The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or
carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Yavnev village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.

That was 1913.

The French author Voltaire described Palestine as ``a hopeless, dreary place.''

In short, under the Turks the land suffered from neglect and low population. That is a historic fact. The nation became populated by both Jews and Arabs because the land came to prosper when Jews came back and began to reclaim it. Historically, they began to reclaim it. If there had never been any archaeological evidence to support the rights of the Israelis to the territory, it is also important to recognize that other nations in the area have no longstanding claim to the country either.

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks.

Historically, Israel gained its independence in 1948.

The third reason that land belongs to Israel is the practical value of the Israelis being there. Israel today is a modern marvel of agriculture. Israel is able to bring more food out of a desert environment than any other country in the world. The Arab nations ought to make Israel their friend and import technology from Israel that would allow all the Middle East, not just Israel, to become an exporter of food. Israel has
unarguable success in its agriculture.

The fourth reason I believe Israel has the right to the land is on the grounds of humanitarian concern. You see, there were 6 million Jews slaughtered in Europe in World War II. The persecution against the Jews had been very strong in Russia since the advent of communism. It was against them even before then under the Czars.

These people have a right to their homeland. If we are not going to allow them a homeland in the Middle East, then where? What other nation on Earth is going to cede territory, is going to give up land?

They are not asking for a great deal. The whole nation of Israel would fit into my home State of
Oklahoma seven times. It would fit into the Presiding Officer's State of Georgia seven times. They are not asking for a great deal. The whole nation of Israel is very small. It is a nation that, up until the time that claims started coming in, was not desired by anybody.

The fifth reason Israel ought to have their land is that she is a strategic ally of the United States. Whether we realize it or not, Israel is a detriment, an impediment, to certain groups hostile to democracies and hostile to what we believe in, hostile to that which makes us the greatest nation in the history of the world.
They have kept them from taking complete control of the Middle East. If it were not for Israel, they would overrun the region. They are our strategic ally.

It is good to know we have a friend in the Middle East on whom we can count. They vote with us in the United Nations more than England, more than Canada, more than France, more than Germany--more
than any other country in the world.

The sixth reason is that Israel is a roadblock to terrorism. The war we are now facing is not against a sovereign nation; it is against a group of terrorists who are very fluid, moving from one country to another. They are almost invisible. That is whom we are fighting against today.

We need every ally we can get. If we do not stop terrorism in the Middle East, it will be on our shores. We have said this again and again and again, and it is true.

One of the reasons I believe the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America is that the policy of our Government has been to ask the Israelis, and demand it with pressure, not to retaliate in a significant way against the terrorist strikes that have been launched against them.

Since its independence in 1948, Israel has fought four wars: The war in 1948 and 1949--that was the war for independence--the war in 1956, the Sinai campaign; the Six-Day War in 1967; and in 1973, the Yom Kippur War, the holiest day of the year, and that was with Egypt and Syria.

You have to understand that in all four cases, Israel was attacked. They were not the aggressor. Some people may argue that this was not true because they went in first in 1956, but they knew at that time that Egypt was building a huge military to become the aggressor. Israel, in fact, was not the aggressor and has not been the aggressor in any of the four wars.

Also, they won all four wars against impossible odds. They are great warriors. They consider a level playing field being outnumbered 2 to 1.

There were 39 Scud missiles that landed on Israeli soil during the gulf war. Our President asked Israel not to respond. In order to have the Arab nations on board, we asked Israel not to participate in the war. They showed tremendous restraint and did not. Now we have asked them to stand back and not do anything over these last several attacks.

We have criticized them. We have criticized them in our media. Local people in television and radio often criticize Israel, not knowing the true facts. We need to be informed.

I was so thrilled when I heard a reporter pose a question to our Secretary of State, Colin Powell. He said:

Mr. Powell, the United States has advocated a policy of restraint in the Middle East. We have discouraged Israel from retaliation again and again and again because we've said it leads to continued escalation--that it escalates the violence. Are we going to follow that preaching ourselves?

Mr. Powell indicated we would strike back. In other words, we can tell Israel not to do it, but when it hits us, we are going to do something.

But all that changed in December when the Israelis went into the Gaza with gunships and into the West
Bank with F-16s. With the exception of last May, the Israelis had not used F-16s since the 1967 6-Day War. And I am so proud of them because we have to stop terrorism. It is not going to go away. If Israel were driven into the sea tomorrow, if every Jew in the Middle East were killed, terrorism would not end. You know that in your heart. Terrorism would continue.

It is not just a matter of Israel in the Middle East. It is the heart of the very people who are perpetrating this stuff. Should they be successful in overrunning Israel--which they won't be--but should they be, it would not be enough. They will never be satisfied.

No. 7, I believe very strongly that we ought to support Israel; that it has a right to the land. This is the most important reason: Because God said so. As I said a minute ago, look it up in the book of Genesis. It is right up there on the desk.

In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says:

The Lord said to Abram, ``Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever. ..... Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.''

That is God talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in
Hebron, and built there an altar before the Lord. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where God appeared to Abram and said, ``I am giving you this land,''--the West Bank.

This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true. The seven reasons, I am convinced, clearly establish that Israel has a right to the land.

Eight years ago on the lawn of the White House, Yitzhak Rabin shook hands with PLO Chairman Yasser
Arafat. It was a historic occasion. It was a tragic occasion.

At that time, the official policy of the Government of Israel began to be, ``Let us appease the terrorists. Let us begin to trade the land for peace.'' This process continued unabated up until last year. Here in our own Nation, at Camp David, in the summer of 2000, then Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak offered the most generous concessions to Yasser Arafat that had ever been laid on the table.

He offered him more than 90 percent of all the West Bank territory, sovereign control of it. There were some parts he did not want to offer, but in exchange for that he said he would give up land in Israel proper that the PLO had not even asked for.

And he also did the unthinkable. He even spoke of dividing Jerusalem and allowing the Palestinians to have their capital there in the East. Yasser Arafat stormed out of the meeting. Why did he storm out of the meeting? Everything he had said he wanted was offered there. It was put into his hands. Why did he storm out of the meeting?

A couple of months later, there began to be riots, terrorism. The riots began when now Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount. And this was used as the thing that lit the fire and that caused the explosion.

Did you know that Sharon did not go unannounced and that he contacted the Islamic authorities before he went and secured their permission and had permission to be there? It was no surprise.

The response was very carefully calculated. They knew the world would not pay attention to the details.

They would portray this in the Arab world as an attack upon the holy mosque. They would portray it as an attack upon that mosque and use it as an excuse to riot. Over the last 8 years, during this time of the peace process, where the Israeli public has pressured its leaders to give up land for peace because they are tired of fighting, there has been increased terror.

In fact, it has been greater in the last 8 years than any other time in Israel's history. Showing restraint and giving in has not produced any kind of peace. It is so much so that today the leftist peace movement in Israel does not exist because the people feel they were deceived.

They did offer a hand of peace, and it was not taken. That is why the politics of Israel have changed drastically over the past 12 months. The Israelis have come to see that, ``No matter what we do, these people do not want to deal with us. ..... They want to destroy us.'' That is why even yet today the stationery of the PLO still has upon it the map of the entire state of Israel, not just the tiny little part they call the West Bank that they want. They want it all.

We have to get out of this mind set that somehow you can buy peace in the Middle East by giving little plots of land. It has not worked before when it has been offered.

These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to that land.

Gone for a few days, and just look what happened to this thread….

Anyway, let’s consider some of the normal Ibrahimic concoctions/contortions of Bible Scripture.

By the time the darkness came, Jesus was already crucified.

When the curtain tore and the earthquake happened, Jesus was already dead as stated in verse 50 which Ibrahim kindly tried to forget: And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. I suppose dear Ibrahim just forgot all these timeframes….

Both are wood. According to Deut.21v22-23 If a man guilty of a capital offence is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God’s curse. and the word used ’êts means “tree, wood, gallows, timber”. Just to show how selective Ibrahim is in his translations (sometimes when it suit him he will go some length to look up the original meanings, other times he conveniently “forgets”):

In 2Sam.21v19 the same word used in Deut.21v22 is used to denote the shaft of a spear.
In 1King.6v15 the same word is used to denote the wood used to line the temple walls with planks.
In Jer.7v18 the word is used to denote sticks that children gather.

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I will give dear Ibrahim the benefit of the doubt that he mistyped John 17 and wanted to type 19 as in chapter 17 the crucifixion is not mentioned

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. No problem in the two accounts, the one just give a little more detail. Jesus was forced to carry his cross UNTILL he was slowing up the procession when the soldiers forced another man to carry the cross further.

Paul tried to destroy the Christian following but after his conversion, he became one (only one) of the biggest preachers/evangelists that Christianity ever had. He went through extreme hardships for his beliefs and finally died because of them – hardly what one would expect from a fake. The other comments from Ibrahim about “minted money” and “unite the sun worshippers and Christians” just form part of Ibrahim’s healthy imagination.

You can beat me blue and pimpel if anyone can follow your distorted logic to deduce from that verse that Matthew did not write the Gospel of Matthew. It was a standard practice (even today) to write from a third person’s viewpoint while the author is himself in the storyline.

Another piece of funny logic by Ibrahim.

It is written:**
You will be ever hearing but never understand;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,	
    hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn and God Almighty would heal them.**

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited June 12, 2002).]

Ibrahim says : greetings of peace to one and all

Good to have you back old man, Yes, lets look at these Christian fabrications a little closer using sound mind and rational thought not blind faith.

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First before we touch on what Old man had to say, lets get certain matters straight

  1. the evidence presented are from FOUR authors for the Gospel and Pual + unknown authors for the Acts of apostles and Epistles. ( letter of Paul) which collectively are known as the New testament.

  2. The Gospel writers 4 in number give inconsistent statements of what had taken place . Meaning there were NOT actual eye witnesses to the events that had taken place . Thus what is written is based on hearsay . which No court of law will accept. Even when one wants to accept them, the inconsistency of the statements made will lead to doubtful situations and at best have to be taken as conjecture

  3. Since we are talking about God, who is the ALL knower and also about the Holy Spirit who is the messenger from God, there can be NO, I mean NONE whatsoever errors, conjectures, doubtful statements, contradictions found in the message coming from them.

Having understood the above lets look at the discussion at hand.

Ibrahim says: Good point old man, that is exactly what the Gospel records conveys, Now here is where the God given “mind” you have, has to kick in ( when it can work but those who have become accustomed to blind faith might have problems in this area) and start asking, what will be achieved if darkness came after the killing of Christ? Was God so incompetent ( may Allah Forgive me) that He will let his SIGN be killed and then, after he is tortured and killed He will cause darkness and earthquakes to take place?

NO! NEVER.

It had already been written : ( The Devil knew and Christ confirmed it)

Matthew 4:6. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, "throw yourself down. ** For it is written: ** "`He (God) will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands,** so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ "**

** Thus NO one could have harmed Christ ever, unless it was approved by God, which God has already written that it was not possible**

So lets ask God , will you change your mind?

And God says:

Numbers 23:19. God is not a man, that he should lie, ** nor a son of man (Christ) , that he should change his mind. ** Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Thus what was written for mankind will come to pass as written and Christ did Pray that he will be saved from what was evidently going to take place since the Jews were bent on killing him.

So do any of you think God will not answer the Prayer of Christ, the special creation that was created as SIGN for mankind for all generations to come?

As such Old man, based on the facts that the Gospel authors were not eyewitness and the fact the they recorded what they felt was good for establishing Christian faith, you have been led to believe as such but that is evidently in error when you consider what God had already said and written.

Ibrahim says: My dear Old man, you don’t suppose the people witnessing the crucifixion of Christ had telecommunications facilities to know what is happening inside the temple at the same time they were watching what was taking place at the place called skull , do you?

So use your mind and be rational. These records are jumbled up in order to convince the readers

Ibrahim says No I don’t forget old man. I look at them rationally , just as you seem to swallow whole verses when you are unable to face the facts.

Ibrahim says which is what you think, but these events cannot materialize as God had already conveyed they will not. ( read Matthew 4:6) So what happened is what you came to believe it happened but not what took place would have caused considerable fear, which will take place before not after the event since that would mean God is incompetent ( May Allah forgive me) , which I am sure you would not like to believe.

Imagined images of the dead walking around, would you hang around in such places?

Imagine Earth quakes, will you hang around in such circumstances?

Imagine it gets dark suddenly, what will be going on in your mind?

So be rational old man, all this will not take place after the crime but before the crime because those are God’s works , only when it is man works they will take place after the crime. And man can do no such thing.

Ibrahim says; SEE! Here you want to rationalize it and want to accept that since both are wood, it is one and the same! That is naïve because hanging a man on the tree, does not involve the cross or nails but nailing a person on a cross involves the cross which is cut and shaped from wood.

** Most of all when you hang a person, it is guaranteed death but when you nail a person on a cross , people don’t die because of it! **

Ibrahim says : my dear old man, good that you quoted what was the LAW, that Jews had to follow. Now THINK, see when a man is hanged on the tree, he cannot be left to rot and must be buried before sundown . ** And most of all such a peron is under God’s curse.**

** So tell me was Christ under God’s curse that he will be hanged on a tree? or a cross or any other form of torture by man?? **

so do you realize how you blasphemy , when you acept such things like all Christians, who claim he was crucified on a tree or cross??

What a shame! No Christ (pbuh) was a sinless person , who was not under God’s curse but was protected by God at all times.

Ibrahim says: Old man , now why is that? When I write at length you insinuate that I am posting too much but when I shorten you complain I did not post, post the entire lexicon for what I write!

What a shame , are you trying to say that hanging and nailing is similar or one and the same??

Ibrahim says: agreed, but did you notice the subsequent words which leads to the conclusion of what it is? Check the high lighted words from your own statements! Now when you say hang on tree as is recorded by the Greeks

The words used for TREE are :-

Acts 5:30. The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—** whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.**

Acts 5:30 Ho Theos toon pateroon heemoon eegeiren Ieesoun hon humeis diecheirisasthe ** kremasantes** epi ** xulou.**

kremasantes = hanging

xoo’-lon = tree

compare with:-

Acts 10:39. "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,

Acts 10:39 Kai heemeis * martures pantoon hoon epoieesen en te tee choora toon Ioudaioon kai en* Ierousaleem. Hon kai aneilan ** kremasantes epi xulou,**

Compare with

Acts 13:29. When they had carried out all that was written about him, ** they took him down from the tree ** and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:29 Hoos de etelesan panta ta peri autou gegrammena, kathelontes apo tou ** xulou ** etheekan eis mneemeion.

Now compare with:- THE CROSS

  1. As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the ** cross.**

Matthew 27:32 Exerchomenoi de heuron anthroopon Kureenaion onomati Simoona. Touton eengareusan hina aree ton stauron autou.

staurov, stauros, Stauron = cross

John 20:25. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the ** nails ** were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

John 20:25 Elegon oun autoo hoi alloi matheetai, Heoorakamen ton Kurion! Ho de eipen autois, Ean mee idoo en tais chersin autou ton tupon toon ** heeloon ** kai baloo ton daktulon mou eis ton tupon toon ** heeloon** kai baloo mou teen cheira eis teen pleuran autou, ou mee pisteusoo!
hlov helos hay’-los , heelon = nail

Ibrahim says : so my dear old man, you may want to believe to hang and to nail are one and the same but rational people with sound mind will not be able to except such things, you see the words used in the NT are

kremasantes = hanging
heelon = nail

Stauron = cross
xulou = tree

Now who has problems you or me?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Ibrahim says: ah yes, the Holy spirit came and told Old man, so we need to excuse him but then again why did the holy spirit fail to tell the Gospel writers, is indeed a contradiction to those who have thinking minds but for blind followers , it is OK, they can explain it to themselves, when it suits them.

Ibrahim says; Ah yes, the followers of Paul would indeed praise him, but what the bible says is not what the Christians say or what Christ said.

My dear old man, don’t be silly, when someone is writing about themselves, they do not say Matthew was sitting there and so and so came and talked to him, they say I was sitting there and so and so approached me and I follwed him and these is what I witnessed concerning him.

[quote]
Ibrahim earlier: So you may ask who wrote John? And you will find the answer for that in John

John 21:24 ** This is the disciple who testifies** to these things and ** who wrote them down.** We know that his testimony is true. 25.** Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down,** I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Ibrahim says: which means it is written by an anonymous disciple and what he says is False in the sense that, the words of Christ , as found in all the Gospels , is so little, that it will only fit into a full size news paper page. *

Old man: Another piece of funny logic by Ibrahim.
[/quote ]

Ibrahim says : Yup, fully agree with you, it is indeed funny why sensible people cannot understand simple matters like above, If John is talking about himself, than John can say so , very easily but here John claims that was the guy who wrote it, so who is he?

Second, John the author of John , not the disciple John claims so much was said and done by Jesus such that the whole world cannot contain it, yet today we can only find ONE News paper page worth of Jesus sayings, was John telling the truth?

Ibrahim says: It is written as Jesus said…

  1. ** Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. **

  2. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

  3. ** "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,** but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

  4. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and ** in your name ** drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

  5. ** Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'**

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** who can protest and does not is an accomplice in the act **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited June 12, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: yes ! Christ was made part of the trinity at about 325 AD and Christian have erred from then, but most people did not have chance to verify this until bibles were more commonly available at about 1611

Thus my point is, that man had a chance to correct himself but till today the church is still singing Jesus this and Jesus that, which is not the TRUTH but a lie.

Look at Jerusalem for instance , try and find out what was its real name as Hebrews knew it?

Hope that helps

BTW you did not answer me, what do you want from the Angel Gabriel/ Holy spirit?

Regards
Ibrahim

** nothing is a waste of time, if you use the experience wisely ** **
[/quote]

For someone who SWEARS The BIBLE is so Corrupted by mankind, you sure do Quote it quite often when it suits YOUR purpose, but when it CLEARLY Speaks AGAINST Your purpose, then That is when it's Corrupt.

You are a JOKE as a servant who Believe he serves The CREATOR.

You really had me Laughing so Hard the other other day, I had Tears coming down from my eyes, and I gave Thanks to GOD for them, for only the day before my Tears from my eyes was for The sadness I Felt for what You shall Face on The Day of Judgement, for you are indeed so BLIND.

Get Life my friend, Reach for JESUS.

Lordspen <><

**It is written:
You will be ever hearing but never understand;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn and God Almighty would heal them.**

Amen Old Man... Amen!!!

[quote]
Originally posted by simplepen:

[quote]
For someone who SWEARS The BIBLE is so Corrupted by mankind, you sure do Quote it quite often when it suits YOUR purpose, but when it CLEARLY Speaks AGAINST Your purpose, then That is when it's Corrupt.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Simplepen, and I was thinking you, YES U, swore that you will not say a word. I guess shaitan got you ticking again , huh?

anyway I use the Bible because YOU and Christians will not accept anything else but the bible

Now either refute me as per this topic or keep quite, but kindly don't ramble or sing!

I have nothing against you nor have HATE for you or anyone else, but CLEARLY you are in error, so either correct yourself or remain in error that is your choice not mine.

BTW trhere is no JESUS only EESA (pbuh) , so get his name right before you die at least.

regards
Ibrahim

** Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. **

Father in Heaven, Holy are You Lord.
My Brother Sweet Jesus, The ONLY WORD.
You Lifted my Spirit, when I once was LOST.
For Upon The Waves of LIFE, I once was Tossed.

Holy Father, Dear GOD The Creator, Glory to YOU.
I ask You Please, Have Mercy on this LOST FOOL.
This man, Your Child, simply has been Swayed away,
for he is so Convinced, Sweet Jesus is NOT The WAY.

He is just a Fool, as I was indeed at one time.
For I walked away from You Father, and chose my Own Line.
Praise YOU for Your Mercy Father,
Praise YOU for Your LOVE.
Show this brother of mine,
How JESUS IS YOUR LOVE!

If Only he would Listen, and Open his Eyes Wide.
Perhaps he would HEAR You Whisper, and KNOW You Never LIED.
If Only he would TRUST YOU, TRUST THE WORD COMPLETE.
He could have LIFE Brand NEW, by The BLOOD upon Jesus' Feet.

I Feel Sad Father, for I do NOT Think he ever will.
Yet I KNOW You wait for him, and LOVE Him ever Still.
Praise YOU Father for YOUR Mercy, on That day yet to COME.
If Only he Knew what is waiting, since he Rejected YOUR HOLY SON.

Forever may I serve You LORD.

humbly Yours,

Lordspen <><

*Hence after the revelation of the Qur’an the way has been changed to, only through the final prophet and no other way. *

So?? As a cathothic I question? Changed?

And I answer.

Your opinion is .. that the only truth is Mohammad? And the Q'uran?
And what makes you any different than some who claim there was an " unworthy catholic nun" whose only effort was to try convert people? Anyone who doesn't follow Islam is ????

Myself?

My belief is that God showed himself to us in many ways.

Ways that all individuals are able to comprehend. That is what I believe is God's grace.

Jesus said "Those that have ears..hear." Whether Jesus is considered prophet or son.. Words say the same thing.

PBUH and Mohammad

And also with you.

never mind, I had responded to something on the first page, I didn't realize that this post went on for 4 pages.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

My belief is that God showed himself to us in many ways.

Ways that all individuals are able to comprehend. That is what I believe is God's grace.

[/QUOTE]

AvgAmericanGirl I humbly have to defer with your concept of truth, and belief in "God's Grace"
In matters of truth the ultimate goal to be sought is agreement, not diversity of opinion. The question of truth in religion is obviously a matter of truth, not a matter of taste or personal preference.
Most religious truths contadict each other, so how could you possibly say for a fact that the blend of religious "truths" and myths are from the same source?

Please read the following article:

Can Christianity be faulted for unabashed arrogance in claiming to offer the only way to God? After all, don't all religions lead to God?

A number of people equate religious tolerance with religious truth. Many assume that all religions are basically the same and that all beliefs are therefore equally valid. They picture each religion as having identical faces hidden behind different masks.

Sound reasoning tells us, however, that all religions are not essentially the same merely because they contain some similarities. A brief survey of a few religions would quickly reveal that every single one of them has competing claims which contradict other religions. How, for example, can someone logically square the Hindu teaching that the universe is God with the Muslim belief that Allah, the God of Islam, is distinct from the universe? Any honest investigator would have to admit that religions harbor irreconcilable differences, demonstrating that they cannot all possibly lead to the same God. Logically speaking, they can all be wrong, but they cannot all be right.

We, therefore, need to ask which religion points to the right God, and consider how certain its claims really are. Regarding these questions, Christianity towers above the religions of the world. For instance, while every religion would have man try to reach up to God, Christianity says that it's God who reached down to man -- that only through God's grace and mercy, and never by mere human effort, can we ever hope to obtain God's favor.

Furthermore, the Lord Jesus, who declared this message, claimed to be God and backed His pronouncements with His own bodily resurrection. No other religious figure throughout history has ever justified any claim with such power and authority. And precisely because Jesus pointed to Himself as the only way to God does His message need to be heard by everyone, everywhere, regardless of their religious beliefs.

Peace &Love

Bllitz,

I don't have factual evidence of what you say..

Only what God tells me. What I hear and believe in my heart.

My heart and my teaching tell me.

God is Infaliible.

God allowed his grace upon humans. However they hear his words. He listens, and is with us/all humankind for all eternity.

Not for one moment would I believe otherwise. I can't.

And I am no religious Guru. I don't think Jesus claimed to be God.

He didn't. He prayed to God, his father, our father, in the Garden of Getheseme (s).

Jesus was the lamb of God. A sacrfice.

A prayer.

Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

God grant us peace.

And may peace be with you.

<~~~~ Good argument deleted.
Because.