Is Christianity the only way?

Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all

Let me shift this thread here, and not muddy up the other thread.

Dear wonderingandwaiting, you are most welcome to this thread or any other thread, that you may chose or you wish to start, all in the hope of understanding the scriptures and what exactly they are saying. ** I would recommend you understand the scriptures and not views of the practitioners.** Which at times can be misleading.

Ibrahim says: ** This is not the case in essence,** what had led you to that conclusion is the Gospel, which is known as the New Testament, which BTW is a translation of the Greek manuscript that must have originated from an Aramaic/Hebrew manuscript. Which has been grossly manhandled and mistranslated

Thus what the originals conveys and what the translations conveys cannot be verified because the originals had been lost.

Having said that, The Old testament in essence will say,

the only way to the Father at the time of Moses (pbuh), would be through Moses (pbuh)

And the only way to the Father in the time of Christ (pbuh) is through Christ (pbuh)

And the only way to the Father at the Time of Muhammad (pbuh) will be through Muhammad (pbuh)

Thus, If one truly understand the entire Bible, the above words will not cause them to err but when one misconstrue those words, one may end up thinking without Christ they will be No salvation for mankind. Which is indeed an erroneous notion propagated by Christians today.

Ibrahim says : The Qur’an says at the time of Christ, indeed that was the only way but when the Jews tried to kill him, God raised him and protected him from any harm and within 600 years after that event , when there was no more followers of Christ practicing Islam as taught by Christ on this planet , God sent his Prophesied messenger as prophesied by Christ (pbuh) and as foretold to Moses (pbuh) in the Bible to guide mankind again.

Hence after the revelation of the Qur’an the way has been changed to, ** only through the final prophet and no other way. **

You see Christ (pbuh) himself preached this and you can use the Gospel to verify it for yourself :-

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying,** I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.**

John 9:5 ** As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.**

Ibrahim says: Thus only as long as Christ was present on this planet he was the light of the world and the only way. hence when the Jews tried to put out this light, God ensured another light was sent to another tribe, such that the light will ever remain on this planet and that light is the Qur’an which was established by the final Prophet as foretold by Christ before he departed from this planet.

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** Enlightenment is the principal of living; not a spiritual climax **

Hello, nice to speak with you. In regards to your last comment. I would like to have the quotes and or scriptures to back this up, where Jesus says there is another to come after him and would be the last one. Because from what I understand Jesus was the messiah and not just a prophet. Also could you please give me some quotes on prophecies from Muhammed that have come to pass as well. Does Islam support Muhammed as a prophet or a Messiah? It seems to me there was a difference between the two. Although I am still learning about Islam and know very little about it, I will really need your help on this.

[quote]
Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
Hello, nice to speak with you. In regards to your last comment. I would like to have the quotes and or scriptures to back this up, where Jesus says there is another to come after him and would be the last one. Because from what I understand Jesus was the messiah and not just a prophet. Also could you please give me some quotes on prophecies from Muhammed that have come to pass as well. Does Islam support Muhammed as a prophet or a Messiah? It seems to me there was a difference between the two. Although I am still learning about Islam and know very little about it, I will really need your help on this.
[/quote]

In the book of Islam, Muhammad is a prophet with the sole mission to reveal the message.

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear wonderingandwaiting, most happy to hear from you too. Let me address your questions separately, since I have a habit of being CLEAR, which means, my posts can get very lengthy, the seekers will appreciate it and the others may complain it is lengthy. So just digest what is comfortable to you but just let me offer you what I can offer you.

Ibrahim says: Good question, in order to understand this you must understand that Christ (pbuh) was not the first creation , hence what ever information given by the Creator will exist from the First creation. Here our records when we use the Bible will start from the time of Moses (pbuh) . Thus I will quote the relevant quotes from the Bible, which are many, as the same information had been given by many prophets and to many prophets at various timeframes.

.(first let me explain why I use the word “Christ” (which means “Messiah”) and avoid the word “jesus” you see that is an invented name and would be disrespectful when used to address such a honored person like Eesa son of Mariam (pbuh) which is his true Name as recorded in the earlier manuscripts and the Qur’an too. Like I said, I need to make myself CLEAR, so that I do not misguide you but tell you what is True and what is untrue, thus there is No Jesus, but there was Eesa (pbuh))

Now to answer your question………….kindly get a hold of your Bible and turn to :-

Isaiah 46: 9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;** I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.** 10. ** I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.** I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11. ** From the east ** I summon a bird of prey; ** from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.** What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. 12. ** Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.**

Ibrahim says: kindly ask yourself the following questions.

  1. Who is “That Man from the East”?
  2. Who is “That Prophet” ?
  3. What is his name ?
  4. What happened to him?

Ibrahim says lets find out and lets begin with a few more prophesies of the Old and New Testaments, like above.

Kindly turn to ** Deuteronomy, chapter 33, verse 2,** Moses prophesied some events:

“And he said. The Lord came ** from Sinai,** and rose up ** from Seir** unto them; He shined forth ** from Mount Paran,** and ** he came with ten thousand saints.** From his right hand went ** a fiery Law for them.”**

The prophesy states several things and they seem clear in meaning. It is accepted that The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai. The Lord would then manifest Himself at Seir, which is very much near Jerusalem. It is clear that this speaks about the coming of Eesa (Jesus). Then The Lord would manifest Himself ‘at Mount Paran’ and come with ‘ten thousand saints’.

** Bible scholars say that Paran is the area around Mecca and Medina in Arabia. ** What was this shining forth of The Lord at Mount Paran, which is Arabia? Muhammad (pbuh) was born in Mecca and migrated to Medina. The first revelation came to Muhammad (pbuh) when he was inside a mountain cave. No one else can this elude to except the Prohet Muhammad (pbuh) . Also, when Muhammad (pbuh) came victoriously into Mecca after being driven out by the rulers, ** he came in with exactly ten thousand of his closest companions or ‘saints’.**

  • Not Convinced? Here is another Prophesy*

There is another prophesy about one from Paran in ** Habakkuk 3:3-7:**

** “God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran.** Selah. His glory covered the heavens and the Earth was full of his praise. And his brightness was as bright as the light. He had horns coming out of his hands; and there was the hiding of his power. ** Before him went pestilence and burning coals went forth at his feet. ** He stood and measured the Earth. ** He beheld and drove asunder the nations;** the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: ** His ways were everlasting.”**

Who else from Mount Paran drove the nations asunder in all history as Muhammad (pbuh) did? The Romans who tried to put Christ (peace be upon him) on the cross surrendered to the companions of Muhammad (peace be upon him). ** The prophesy says that his ways would be everlasting’, which is what Muslims establish when they follow the Prophet (pbuh) in every detail.** Muslims are commanded to stick as close to the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) as possible, as the Quran (the Revelation) and the Sunnah (Prophet Muhammad’s way of doing things) form the essential sources of guidance for Muslims.

Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.

In Isaiah 9: 6

For unto us ** a child is born** , unto us a son is given: and ** the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,** The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

  1. Note how he is named " wonderful counselor" which would translate to Mohammed in the Arabic and Hebrew language.

  2. note how the “Government will rest on his shoulder” and indeed the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) ruled Arabia with a fiery law and his companions conquered the Romans who wanted to crucify the Christ.

  3. the mighty God should be considered allegorical, since God is not born to any man or women.

  • Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.*

In Isaiah 28 he is again mentioned

  1. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10. ** For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.**

Indeed this Prophet spoke with stammering lips for he was illiterate and in an Arabic language ( another tongue) and he taught the Qur’an which took 23 years to complete and it was reveal line after line , here little they a little, which contained precept after precept for all of mankind..

  • Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.*

Even Jesus attested to these events after himself, according to** Matthew 21:43-46:**

** “Therefore I say unto you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth fruits thereof. ** And whosoever falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it falls, ** it will grind him to powder.”**

Who was the one from Paran whom all of this speaks about? Muhammad (pbuh) was the direct descendent Of Ishmael, the son of Abraham. It was said by God about Ishmael according to ** Genesis 17:20 that Ishmael was blessed and would be made a great nation: “I have blessed him…and will make him a great nation.”**

Which other descendent of Ishmael, from Paran can these things speak of? Yet there are more mentions of ‘The Prophet’.

  • Still not convinced?*

According to ** Deuteronomy 18:18-19,** God was speaking to Moses about the Israelites:

** “I will** raise them up ** a prophet among their brethren, like unto thee** , and ** I will put my words in his mouth ** and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken unto the words that** he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”**

Who are the brethren of the Israelites? The brethren of the Israelites are the Ishmaelites, since Ishmael was the brother of Israel. Muhammad (pbuh) was the direct descendent of Ishmael. This prophet was to be like unto Moses as prophesied above and Christ will not fit into this no matter what.

The Qur’an says: [Qur’an 73:16].

** “We have raised a prophet amongst you like unto the prophet (Moses) we sent to Pharaoh,” **

In fact, both Muhammad (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) were very similar, when their lives are examined:

** Both grew up orphans; both were bestowed prophet hood in middle age and both married; both were driven out by their people. In fact, both Muhammad (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) brought complete laws of life, **

Further in ** Acts 7:37.** This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, ** A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me** ; him shall ye hear. 38. ** This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, ** and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Here again he is mentioned and indeed the Prophet Mohammed ( pbuh) was taught by an angel in a secluded cave (church) where he frequented in the mountain. (wilderness)

whereas Jesus only had come to reform and revive the strength of the Law of Moses, as he himself states in ** Matthew 5:17-18:**

  1. ** "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them**
    .
  2. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, ** not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.**

And Jesus did not fulfill everything, clearly as he spoke in ** John 16:12-13:**

“I have yet many things to say to you ** but you cannot bear them now. ** However, ** when the Spirit of Truth is come,** he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that he speak. ** And he will show you things to come.”**

Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded thus by God in Qur’an 5.-68:

** “Oh Messenger, convey to the people what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” **

Qur’an 26:

192 Verily ** this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: **

193 ** With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth**

Qur’an 16:

102 Say ** the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth ** in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims

The entire Qur’an is the exact words of God spoken through Muhammad (pbuh), without translation or editing. The Qur’an is the only scripture alive today in the original language in which it was revealed.

Continuing with the prophesy, ** God said He would put His words in the prophet’s mouth and he shall only speak that which he is commanded. Muhammad (pbuh) received revelation and it was branded on his heart’ (as he himself used to explain). The Qur’an attests that Muhammad (pbuh) does not speak of his own desires, but that which he is commanded to speak.**

Muhammad’s life was meticulously recorded by his companions so much so that they recorded literally how he would brush his teeth. And throughout his entire life, no one saw anything questionable in his character nor was he ever accused of being contradictory or anything but truthful and trustworthy, even by his enemies! Non Muslim studies of Muhammad (pbuh) would also concur on this point.

** The final prophet would speak God’s words in God’s name. ** The Qur’an contains parts or chapters and each chapter begins with the words, ** “In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful”.**

Then, in the very next verse after the last prophesy, God gives the criterion by which we can judge the truth of The Prophet from the liars and false prophets ** (Deuteronomy 18:20):**

“But that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other Gods, ** even that prophet shall die.”**

This states clearly that the false prophet shall not succeed. Did Muhammad (pbuh) succeed? Well, he managed to turn a group of infighting tribes into the strongest force in the world, close to 1.5 to 2 billion people follow him today, countless others have throughout history, and more and more are accepting this message now. When he was informed of the close to end of his life by God, Muhammad (pbuh) gave a farewell speech, in which he asked the people whether he had accomplished his mission of warning the people and establishing the Law of God, and the people resoundingly answered affirmatively. In fact, the death of Muhammad (pbuh) was so peaceful that the last thing he did before leaving this world was brush his teeth!

  • Still not convinced?*

Now we go to ** Song of Solomon, 5:10-16.** A title of Muhammad (SAW) was ** “Habeebullah” meaning The beloved of Allah’.**

Here is the prophesy:

10 “My beloved is white and ruddy.
11 His head is purest gold, his hair is wavy and black as a raven.
15 (describe his eyes, cheeks, lips, arms, body and legs )
16 His mouth is sweetness itself. He is ________” This is ** my beloved, ** and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

The reason I left the blank is because the word used in the original Hebrew language is stunning. The word is** "Muhammadim’.** “He is Muhammad”, it reads. The translators decided to translate the name to ‘altogether lovely’ in the English versions, but anyone can go and check it in any Hebrew text.

Romanized Hebrew :- 5:16

  1. xikow mamtaqiym wkulow ** maxamadiym ** zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.

Also, this description exactly describes the appearance of Muhammad (pbuh) according to the descriptions written by his companions. Please, I urge you to think and make your own decision. This could be a coincidence, that could be a coincidence, but how many coincidences can there be?

In ** John 14:15-16, Jesus says:**

“If you love me, keep my commandments. ** And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another Comforter.”**

It is important to note that in other places, ** Jesus speaks of himself as a Comforter ** (Paraclete’ from the ancient Greek language), and in this passage the same word is used, ‘Paraclete’.

In John 16:7, we have:

“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; ** it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you.** However, if I depart, I will send him to you.”

The apostles do not want him to go, obviously, but he says that if he does not go, the Paraclete cannot come. There is a plan, and it is part of it that he must go away.

In ** John 16:12-14, Jesus says:**

** “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.** Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; ** for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear shall he speak. And he will show you things to come; and he shall glorify me.”**

Muhammad (pbuh) truly glorified Christ. In fact, without believing in Christ, one cannot be a Muslim. Qur’an states that Christ was one of the greatest 'anbiya (Arabic meaning 'prophet, the word Christ used to describe himself). He was born of a miraculous birth from the chaste virgin Mary and he proved himself by many miracles. Truly, Muhammad (pbuh) was the Paraclete (or prophet) or Spirit of Truth as foretold by Christ as one to guide into all truth.

The Qur’an bears clear witness to this, saying in 17:82:

** Say [to the people] that the Spirit of Truth has come and falsehood is vanquished. **

  • Still not convinced?*

In the time of Jesus, the Jews were expecting the coming of three individuals as we read in ** John 1:19-21:**

"Now this was John’s (the Baptist) testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely,** I am not the Christ.‘** They asked him, ** ‘Are you Elijah?** ’ He said, No, I am not.’ ** ‘Are you The Prophet?’ ** He said, No.’

There was no need to mention details, ** they were expecting the Christ, Elijah, and The final Prophet, like Moses (pbuh) '.** John The Baptist turns out to be Elijah in spirit , as Jesus later clarifies in Matthew 11:14: “And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who was to come.”

And in Matthew 17:14: “But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him. ..Then they realized that he was speaking of John The Baptist.”

** Obviously, Jesus was the Christ (or ‘anointed one’ in English). John was Elijah in the spirit. So who was The Prophet’? **

Who is the one who was to come from Mount Paran, which is according to Bible scholars, around Mecca and Medina? He was to come with ten thousand saints and bring a fiery law. He was to be like unto Moses and come from the brethren of the Israelites. This Prophet was to speak what words God put in his mouth and speak ‘in the name of God’. The Prophet was to conquer his enemies and establish the Law of God and guide the faithful into all truth. ** Who is this Prophet that would only come after the going away of Jesus and would glorify him?**

After examining the clear evidences, it is clear that Muhammad (pbuh) was that Prophet. It is important to point out that the Jews who lived in Arabia at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) were expecting The Prophet’ in the Paran (Arabia) area. They used to mock the pagans that The Prophet would soon come and lead them to victory over the pagans, as foretold in their scriptures. It is also important to understand that there were many Christians who did not believe that Jesus was God. They understood that Jesus was an honored Prophet and Messenger of God, but only human.

These great masses of Christians were concentrated in North Africa, and they were also expecting The Prophet, as the Bible foretold. Therefore, when the message of Islam reached the North Africans, they readily followed the message of The Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). This contributed to the fact that North Africans are Muslims today and the majority of Christians left in the world who did not follow Muhammad (pbuh) were and are those that toke Jesus to be God.

(Qur’an 7:158).

** “… Those who follow the Messenger, the Immaculate One, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them.” **

No doubt there are many prophecies regarding the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible, but in the above quoted Qur’anic verse, the Torah and the Gospels are especially mentioned; because Moses and Eesa ( false name Jesus) (peace be upon them) were prominent figures among all Israelite prophets.

Muhammad (pbuh) confirmed all previous Prophets and said that disbelieving in them was tantamount to disbelief in Islam. It is also clear that many previous Prophets told their people about the coming of The Prophet’. This Prophet would lead the people into all truth and establish the Law and proper way of life for humanity. Not surprisingly, many of these prophesies still can be seen in scriptures of Prophets who came hundreds even thousands of years before Muhammad (pbuh)

Please examine the evidence put before you and judge with an honest judgment Please do not let the practices of those before you or the majority of people around us today, or the propaganda against Islam lure you away from honesty. In addition this Prophet had been named even in earlier scriptures

I believe Sister Enchanted just posted some on http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005279.html, if you need more will work on it , since what I have given above is already lengthy.

Ibrahim says : Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of prophets, hence the FINAL Prophet for mankind and Christ too is a prophet in the line of prophets as mentioned in the Gospel .

The title “Messiah” is given to Christ as it was given to others before him as mentioned in the Bible.

messiah in English means:-

1 cap
a :** the expected king and deliverer of the Jews**
b : JESUS 1

2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause

©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.

Messiah in Hebrew means; -

Transliterated: mashiyach
Phonetic: maw-shee’-akh

Strong’s Number: 4899 xyvm - mashiyach ** maw-shee’-akh;** from 04886; anointed;** usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:-anointed, Messiah. Greek 3323. …

Ibrahim say: Since Christ was the final warning for the Jews and was sent to the Jews only and the Jews tried to kill him, the title “messiah” will not apply to the Final prophet as he was sent to their brethren and all of mankind and not to the Jews who declared themselves the chosen people ( meaning they became racists) thus angering God.

Hope that helps

Regard
Ibrahim

** Your life is not yours ; it is only given to you to wake up . Don’t postpone your wakening .**

[quote]
Ibrahim said: I would recommend you understand the scriptures and not views of the practitioners. Which at times can be misleading.
[/quote]

Which includes Ibrahim whenever he explains the Christian faith as he tends to misquote/misrepresent and in general is extremely negative towards the Christian faith. Some of his misguided info will be discussed:

[quote]
Ibrahim said: the New Testament, which BTW is a translation of the Greek manuscript that must have originated from an Aramaic/Hebrew manuscript
[/quote]

The oldest manuscripts indicate that ALL books in the New Testament were originally written in Greek. Slight proof exist that the Gospel of Matthew might have been originally in Hebrew and that the Gospel of Mark might have been originally in Latin.

[quote]
Ibrahim said: Which has been grossly manhandled and mistranslated. Thus what the originals conveys and what the translations conveys cannot be verified because the originals had been lost.
[/quote]

The only way it can be proved that the Scriptures were "manhandled and mistranslated" would be if it could be compared with the first original written parts which in Ibrahim's own words "had been lost". It is therefor just a conjecture with no proof from Ibrahim that the Scriptures were "manhandled and mistranslated", as he actually proof himself that the New Testament can't be verified.

What we DO have is about 5300 partial/complete of complete Greek manuscripts. Early on, the New Testament books were translated into other languages. This means that in addition to Greek, we have something like 8,000 manuscripts in Latin, and an additional 1,000 or so manuscripts in other languages such as Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopic, Coptic, Gothic, Sahidic and Georgian. As these translations began to be made before the close of the second century, they provide an excellent way for assessing the text of the New Testament writings from a very early date. All this material gives scholars an excellent resource for comparing copies and determining where discrepancies or scribal comments may have crept into the text. The conclusion: We can say that the New Testament text is far better attested to than any other ancient writings.

BTW: The ORIGINAL original Qu'ran is also lost.....and only copies of it exist!

[quote]
Ibrahim said: Having said that, The Old testament in essence will say, the only way to the Father at the time of Moses (pbuh), would be through Moses (pbuh)
[/quote]

Nowhere in Bible/Old Testament is it stated as such, therefor, false statement.

[quote]
Ibrahim said: You see Christ (pbuh) himself preached this and you can use the Gospel to verify it for yourself.
Ibrahim said: Thus only as long as Christ was present on this planet he was the light of the world and the only way, hence when the Jews tried to put out this light, God ensured another light was sent to another tribe, such that the light will ever remain on this planet and that light is the Qur'an which was established by the final Prophet as foretold by Christ before he departed from this planet.
[/quote]

A misrepresenting of the facts by stating that Christ Jesus would be the way to Salvation * while Jesus was on earth *. Jesus was and still is the way to Salvation as stated in their writings by ALL the apostlesdisciples that were taught by Jesus. Let's read what was said AFTER Jesus left the disciples:

** Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. ** Acts.4v12 Said by the disciple Peter who was taught by Jesus himself*.

Absolute nonsense to state that Jesus Christ * foretold another Prophet * to come whom would be equal to himself. Fabrication of Ibrahim's imagination (some people might even call it an outright lie!).

Whenever Ibrahim writes about Islam, you can read and take note as he writes with authority, whenever he writes about Christianity, be aware....

Thank you both for your queries. Ibriham, I have to agree with the old man, in saying that there is no scripture stating that the bible predicted a so called LAST one as muhammed. The thin that I question is this. In the bible, it speaks of Jesus Christ performing miricles, healings, and that he was not a prophet but God himself in the flesh. Also that he died and was risen again in three days, tells me that he was a savior to all mankind. Now I believe both books are historical evidence for both people. Therefore believing that both lived but only one died for the people, and this is where things get a little hairy. I have no doubt that muhammed was a prophet, but I also think that Jesus was a savior. I think that man has misconstrued both books. By taking into account what he chooses to believe. I guess the part I really have a difficult time with is the fact that Jesus was predicited throughout the OT, as were many other prophecies that have came to pass 100% without fail, and the one prophecy that I can say sticks out in my mind and forever has is the one about Israel being a nation. Unless it were not true, this could not have happened, therefore, I must keep an open mind about this bible. Keeping in mind, I have not read the Quran, and also I have not been around too many muslims either, but I wanted to get the opinions from muslims in another part of the world because where I live, it is mostly made up of christians. Ibriham what are your thoughts on the book of revelations, and who do you think this false prophet is? and for the Old man, I would like your opinions on this as well, ok?

I wish to express my deepest pardon for the long post but it was neccitated by an even as long post.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/flower1.gif

I wish to explain certain verses that my dear friend Ibrahim has hopelessly misused.

The man from the east is Cyrus, the war-like king of Persia, that God would use to overthrow Babylon who oppressed Israel. By reading from chapter 44 to 47 one can clearly see the issue in context. Chapter 44v28 identifies the person * who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,” and ogf the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.’” * In chapter 45v13 we read * I will raise up him (Cyrus) in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight (meaning his plans will bear fruit). He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the Lord Almighty. * This prophesy did come to pass as written in Ezra chapter 1v1 *In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, in order to fulfil the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah *. Jer.25v8-14.

BTW: Isaiah was writing about Israel in exile in Babylon (present day Iraq) when he made the prophecy which obviously made Persia (present day Iran) the country to the east!

This verse was written by Moses to illustrate the greatness of God Almighty and is not a propphesy as Moses wrote in the past tense: “came from Sinai”, “rose up from Seir”, and “bshined forth from Mount paran”.

BTW: No Muslim will accept that the Prophet Muhammed is God Almighty, and clearly Moses wrote The Lord…shined forth from Mount Paran. Obviously Ibrahim can let his imagination go…..

Again we see that the prophet wrote in the past tense. The prophet refers to God that lead his people, the Israelites, out of Egypt through Teman and Paran. Teman and Paran took in the whole of the south of Judah, including Sinai. The prophet Habakuk is saying a prayer to God reflecting on the deliverance done to Israel and God’s future deliverance of Israel and the judgement of their enemies.

BTW: Only God Almighty can be called “The Holy One”.

This verse clearly refer to Jesus Christ. What we do have here is a child being born, being called Almighty God, Councellor, and everlasting Father stating again the Tri-une God (Father , Son, and Holy Ghost). In the next verse, that Ibrahim preferably do not quote, we find that this person will reign on the David’s throne meaning he will be of the lineage of David.

We read in Luke.2v11 Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. Just two chapters earlier, Isaiah wrote: Therefor the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

BTW: Certainly the Prophet Muhammed can not be called “mighty God”! Due to wars done by the Prophet Muhammed, he also can’t be called “Prince of Peace”.

Isaiah in this chapter states how the Northern Kingdom of Israel was throwing away the blessings of the God as a drunkard throws away his money in the pursuit of wine. He writes: v1 Woe to that wealth, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards. Isaiah refers to the people and leaders (priests and prophets) as being drunk at a banquet where the tables were covered in vomit (7-8). In verse 9-10 the prophet askes who do they want to teach with their befuddled minds. Isaiah then go on in verse 11 to 13 to state that if they do not wish to be lectured by him, they will be lectured by a people who had a difficult and foreign language. We read in verse 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to his people.

BTW: The Arabic language wasn’t strange to the people of Israel!

The Kingdom of God would be taken from the scribes and Pharisees represented in the parable as the wicket farmers, and given to a nation, i.e. any people who willl bring forth the fruits of salvation, opening the gospel to the Gentiles.

The disciple Peter (who was taught personnaly by Jesus Christ), stated in Acts.3v13-26 that this Prophet that was referred to was Jesus Christ. He said: ”For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up a prophet like me from among your own people (please note – not Ismaelites but Israelites); you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’ “Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as has spoken, have foretold these days. And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers.”

Please note that Peter said “these days” (present tense) and “you are” (present tense).

Let’s look at what Stephen continue to say before jumping to an Ibrahimic conclusion:

Acts.7v51-53 ”You stiff-necked people, wwith uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Stephen clearly identified Jesus Christ as the one he earlier spoke about.

Just to show how selective Ibrahim quotes, let’s also read John 14v16 and 17: I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever – the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you – clearly NOT the Prophet Muhammed.

Nowhere does the Prophet Muhammed fulfill any of the characteristics of the Holy Spirit. Let me illustrate some points:

  1. The Spirit was instrumentall in raising Jesus from the death Rom.8v11
  2. The Spirit searches all things – even the deep things of God 1Cor.2v10
  3. The Spirit is given to those that ask God Luk.11v13

There is only one “The Messiah” refered to and expected by Jews. That Messiah is Jesus Christ according to Christianity. The Jews still await the Messiah.

WaW, I’m sure that one of our Muslim friends here will be able to give you a site online where a reputable translation of the Qu’ran can be found. I downloaded one from a site Iron-Lady gave me. The site was www.Quraan.com

The bottom line is that if you are looking to make contact with God Almighty, it is a sign that the Holy Spirit already is working in your heart. Listen and follow the urging you get to do.

About Revelation: The false prophet is most definitely NOT the Prophet Muhammed. This false prophet will only be made known AFTER the Anti-Christ already is known. Where the Anti-Christ will be the “governor” and will set himself up to be worshipped, the false prophet will do the priestly functions.

Some people do not believe that the two is actual persons. Unfortunately for those, the characteristics atributed to these two show that they will most definately be actual flesh and blood individuals.

Hope the explanation do help.

well i dunno wat’s really going on…but i got the idea that ppl here were questioning Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h)'s credibility as a prophet. and asking if he had any prophecies.

well here are two links.

Quranic prophecies: http://www.thetruereligion.org/quranprophecy.htm

Prophet Muhammad prophecies:
http://www.thetruereligion.org/muhammadprophecy.htm

i hope it helps…actually i don’t like to copy and paste very long articles.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Old Man my Friend, you share Thoughts of a very WISE Heart, and The Creator is Smiling Upon You without Doubt.

I have to say, and this is simply what the LORD has placed into my Heart Very CLEAR.

I can NOT agree with what you share below here:

"About Revelation:The false prophet is most definitely NOT the Prophet Muhammed. This false prophet will only be made known AFTER the Anti-Christ already is known. Where the Anti-Christ will be the "governor" and will set himself up to be worshipped, the false prophet will do the priestly functions."

You are thinking of this in Man's timing, and NOT in The Timing of The LORD.

The Last days Began when Jesus Arose, and although 2000 years is indeed Many Lifetime over in Man's Timing, it is simply a Deep Breath of GOD.

The Prophet Muhammed, indeed came shortly after Jesus, with a message completely oposed to the Message JESUS Shared with the World.

This Prophet was a man, and now lies Dead in the Sand, but his work, The Qu'ran is still here, growing everyday in the numbers who choose to Follow him, rather than JESUS, as the WAY to The CREATOR.

This Writing, does NOT Deny The BIBLE, but states it is Corrupt, and so can NOT be Trusted for The Mesage it shares, but ONLY The Quran can be Trusted as The Complete Word of GOD, with it's simple Message...

Yes it is TRUE, JESUS (WAS) The Way, but now that is no longer True, for the Only way to The Creator, is in These instructions Presented as Truth.

One is a collection of Books, by many different Writers Lead by The LORD.

The Other is a single book, written by a single man, Claiming to Be The Final Authority of The WORD of GOD.

It has been stated, it stands on it's onw, for it is Pure, and the Bible is corrupt.

I say it stand on it's Own, for it is NOT The WORD of GOD, but the writings of a FALSE PROPHET, who's Followers have become so Great in Number, that it is CLEARLY of The Vast influence we have been warn of that would come in the Last days.

We have BEEN in the Mist of The Last Days, for the Past 2000 years.

The Current Times in which we Live, are simply The Last Hours my Friend, before The LORD's Return, Before The Great Tribulation which shall come upon this earth, when all those Left, shall be force to accept the Mark of The Beast, or accept Death upon this Earth.

Peace Be with You Old Man,
For I KNOW The LORD is in Your Heart.

simplepen

So simplepen, are you saying that the false prophet is the prophet muhammed? And that the Quran is the works of the devil?

[quote]
Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
So simplepen, are you saying that the false prophet is the prophet muhammed? And that the Quran is the works of the devil?
[/quote]

YES, this is EXACTLY what I am Saying.

There are MANY False prophets, and Anti-Christ in the World today, as there has been since The Last Days began and even before.

Jesus Is The ONE spoken of who was to come.

Jesus came, and Shall come again.

Mohammad came after Jesus, and teaches AGAINST Everything Jesus Taught, while at the very same time, stating what is TRUTH.

Jesus The Only WAY, while he walked on the earth.

He was Born of a Virgin, sent to earth by GOD.

Judgement DAY shall COME FOR ALL MANKIND Upon this earth.

This is The POINT.

On That Day yet to COME, who shall the Father Be Pleased with.

Those who Accepted The One the Jewish rejected, as The Savior of ALL... Jesus Christ

or Those who came after to Jesus Walked here upon this earth, and REJECT HIM as Savior, and instead...

follow a man of earth who has lead many to believe The WORD of GOD is Corrupt, so do NOT trust it with The Life of Your SPIRIT, ONLY TRUST what I say is The WILL of GOD.

That GOD has NO SON, and Salvation Needs NOT a PRICE to be Paid, even though The Wages of SIN is DEATH.

Therefore Follow The Qu'ran, and You shall Please The Creator, and He shall Ignore His very OWN LAW, which states, The Wages of SIN is DEATH, and shall Give those followers of The Quran TRUE LIFE.

You need only Look to The very MOTIVE of each BOOK, and he PROOF is CLEAR to SEE.

One Speaks of TRUE PEACE, and The other simply calls out the Name of Peace, but shall Only LEAD to DEATH.

Just as The BIBLE shares so CLEARLY, by Those who follow the Quran, have allowed themselves to be convinced by The Enemy of GOD, That GOD WOULD NOT, and COULD NOT Keep His HOLY WORD as It was Written over many, many, many Lifetimes, from Being Kept TRUE.

The CREATOR of ALL The WORLD, who is in Our Daily Lives, every moment of Every day, allowed HIS HOLY WORD to be corrupted.

It makes me so Sad, so Many have come to Accept these CLEAR and OBIVIOUS LIES of The Quran, as The TRUTH of GOD.

This is why The BIBLE is NOT allowed freely in Much of the WORLD where The Quran is held as Truth.

It seems to me, anyone, who simply Takes the TIME to READ BOTH for Themselves, and TRUST The CREATOR, HE KEEPS HIS WORD HOLY FOREVER, and I am speaking of EVERYWORD by GOD, then they would come to SEE The TRUTH as it TRULY IS, and on that DAY yet to Come for ALL Mankind, They shall indeed received their part in The Kingdom of GOD The CREATOR.

NOT EVERYONE shall Be in the KINGDOM, yet EVERYONE shall Stand Before GOD.

Peace be with You is your search for TRUTH.

I say to YOU, Listen NOT to a comman man of this Earth, but READ THE WORD OF GOD, The BIBLE, and then read the Quran, and then Ask GOD for YOURSELF, to make CLEAR The ONLY TRUTH.

He shall, of this I Have NOT a single DOUBT.

In His Peace,

Lordspen <><

You know what? Something you said hit me. If muslims believe in the old testiment of the bible, and it predicts the messiah to come, and be born of a virgin, then not to believe that Jesus was the messiah, is like calling God a liar right? Is this what you are saying? Because if this is what you are saying then how could the muslim faith believe in anything in the bible?

[quote]
Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
You know what? Something you said hit me. If muslims believe in the old testiment of the bible, and it predicts the messiah to come, and be born of a virgin, then not to believe that Jesus was the messiah, is like calling God a liar right? Is this what you are saying? Because if this is what you are saying then how could the muslim faith believe in anything in the bible?
[/quote]

This is exactly what I am Speaking about. On That Day yet to COME for All Mankind, NONE shall have Excuse. Those who have been deceived, shall NOT be able to say, "But father we were never told The TRUTH" for The Father shall say CLEARLY. " YES you were told The TRUTH, and THEN Told it was Corrupted by a Man, and You Choose to BELIEVE this man of Earth, instead of TRUSTING ME, YOUR GOD, and CREATOR to KEEP MY WORD PURE."

This is exactly why the Quran states the Truth of The Bible, and then simply says it is corrupt, so it is NOT TRUSTWORTHY.

This is INDEED, The Desire of The Father's Enemy for The World to Believe, BEFORE The Day to Come for ALL Mankind... Judgement Day.

The More who come to Believe this man, OVER GOD, more more who shall NOT have LIFE with The CREATOR, and THAT IS The REASON he seeks to deceive the World.

The CREATOR seeks ONLY To bring His Children to Have LIFE Forever With HIM. That begins NOW upon this earth, by simply TRUSTING GOD, and HIS HOLY WORD, A Collection of Books and Letters Held Together within ONE BINDING... The Holy Bible.

The ONE and ONLY TRUE WORD OF GOD.

Jesus is THE WORD, became FLESH, was sacificed for The SINS of The WORLD, and Now is With the FATHER, waiting for The Time Our Father says... NOW is The TIME My SON. Go and Gather The Elect from the Earth, for They have Been Faithful in TRUSTING MY WORD, as I HAVE Been Faithful in Keeping PURE throughout TIME, as Only I am Able to do, and no Other, for I Lead my Children, Your Brothers and Sisters. They Know my Voice. Go and bring Them to me."

This is TRUTH, of The Only ROOT... Jesus Christ the LORD.

Peace be with You.

Lordspen <><

what’s going on here?? okay i guess ibrahim left the discussion after 3 christians came in.

Well well i have nothing against u people, because of course u r followers of jesus, and i have great respect for him(AS) and his virgin mother Mary( hazrat marriam as we call her)

Now from what i gather from this conversation is that u r saying that heaven is for those who follow the path of jesus. Amy i be allowed to quote Quran here? allowed okay.

that means i am following Jesus doesn’t it? And why do u say that the message of the two deities differ?
Didn’t they both preach unity of Allah…and exhorted their followers to do good for mankind at large?

Some ppl say that Muhammad compiled the Holy Quran by taking references from Bible and torah. this is the biggest joke

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

ppl Muhammad (p.b.u.h0 was an unlettered man how in the Name of God could he compile a book which deals with every aspect of life…along with that tells things abt which man has just got to know in 20th century? i am going to post athread abt miracles in Quran soon do read it. Quran is not a book which can be written by an illliterate.

I would suggest that u read its whole translation with the sole purpose of finding the truth. Although i am a muslim i never read Quran’s translation till now…but now when i have started it seriously every day Allah shows me His miracles.

"that means i am following Jesus doesn't it? And why do u say that the message of the two deities differ?"

How can you say you are Following Jesus, when He himself said, "There is NO Other Way to the Father, but through me, His SON, The Son of man."

The Quran, says The BIBLE is Corrupt, and That GOD had NO SON, so He is NOT The WAY.

The ONLY WAY NOW, is to LIVE LIFE according to The Quran.

"Didn't they both preach unity of Allah...and exhorted their followers to do good for mankind at large?"

It's NOT about how we are to be with One Another, for We BOTH, as People... Christians, and Muslims Both Long to Serve The SAME Creator of All Things The SAME.

We BOTH WORSHIP The Very Same GOD, but CHRISTIANS TRUST GOD and HIS HOLY WORD fromThe BEGINNING, as TRUTH.

Muslims have come to Believe GOD's WORD was corrupted by simple man, yet HOLD as TRUTH, The Messqage of a simple man, as The ONLY PURE TRUTH.

ONE HOLDS Jesus is The Promised ONE, The SON of GOD. The Lamb who's Bllod was shed to redeem All of Their SINS in The World.

The OTHER States, GOD had NO SON, and so He was NOT The LAMB Given as The Gift of Payment for The wages of SIN.

How can you Believe you Follow Jesus, when by accepting what they Quran teaches as TRUTH, you agree GOD HOLY WORD is Corrupt.

You may NOT Realize this, BUT That is EXACTLY what we are being tested for while we live the very brief time upon this Earth.

What we Choose, as Heart before GOD, to HOLD CLOSE TO OUR HEARTS as HIS WORD.
For on That Day to Come for EVERYONE, there shall no longer be a chance to HOLD onto THE TRUTH, unless it was The TRUTH you were Wise enough to Grab and Hold onto here upon this EARTH.

No one shall have an Excuse, and EVERYONE shall Have to ANSWER for The CHOICE they Made upon The Earth.

Peace be with You Always, for Indeed we BOTH LOVE The CREATOR, but ONLY Those who Follow Jesus, shall have LIFE FOREVER with The Creator.

GOD BLESS YOU.

Lordspen <><

[This message has been edited by simplepen (edited June 09, 2002).]

The concept of Christianity is that believing in Jesus Christ or having him in your heart will save you from hell. That you can do sin, but as long as you have Jesus Christ in your heart you will end up in heaven. In another word, what the Christians are saying is that Jesus himself is promoting sin, since he says that as long as you believe in him, you will end up in heaven. First of all, what was the purpose of Jesus to come, to save mankind from what, sin right? So why will there be a reason to do sin, and be forgiven when he already came and saved us all? Let me put it in simpler terms for those who wouldn’t understand what I’m trying to say, if the purpose of Christianity is to save people from sin, then why has it not eradicated sin from overwhelmingly majority countries like Canada, USA and of course overwhelmingly majority Europe? Matter of fact, being as they are Christian States, they are far more worst when it comes to committing sin then Muslim countries. For example, Pornography, alcohol, racial discrimination, child molestation, child pornography, rape, murder, legal prostitution, strip clubs etc. and so many other acts which upon request I can list also… so now tell me, with all this sin that is existing in all these Christian countries or majority Christian countries, what is the purpose of Christianity in this world? That go ahead commit sin, and as long as you believe in Christ you will be saved? There is a legal lawsuit right now sitting on the table of American congress, accusing 300 Catholic priests as childmoleters, and child rapists. These 300 cases are not just accusing your average minister or your average priest; those cases are in thousands. These 300 cases are of those Catholic and Christian leaders that represent large sum of Christian communities, and if Christianity couldn’t save these men of LORD JESUS CHRIST from sin, then what is the purpose of it? Where in America, 50% marriages end up in divorce after the first year together. Where in America, 42% of all families are single parent families. Where in American, 72% of that 42% happens to be single mothers? Where in America, 1 out of every 3 women is raped or has been molested. So please tell me, what is the purpose of Christianity? What does it have to show?

As Christians you are telling me, that as a non-Christian, if I don’t do drugs, don’t drink alcohol, and don’t watch porn or molest children, my chances of ending up in heaven are dim compared to a Christian that have committed all these sins since he believes in the savor LORD CHRIST and has him in his heart?

Tell me, what is the message of Christianity then, that as a good Muslim, I have no chance in heaven compared to a sinful Christian. That covering Muslim women have no chance in heaven compared to a centerfold naked Christian model.

[This message has been edited by Yemeen (edited June 09, 2002).]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Good to have your view on this old man, as usual you tend to make your accusations where possible, and when it comes to the crux of the matter , you have disappeared once too often, that is indeed a shame.
Anyway lets examine your current claims, which to your knowledge is that ** all books** in new testament were originally written in Greek, this does not need a rocket scientist to understand simply because Christ (pbuh) was not a GREEK, but a Jew whose mother tongue was Aramaic and his audience ( Jewish priests and Jews) in Jerusalem would have been mostly Hebrew speaking people. Thus when there is claim that there is a ** Gospel being revealed by Christ**, it can be in no other language except in Aramaic or Hebrew or a combination of both language ** but NEVER in Greek. **

But since only Greek survived, it means it is a translation and not an original. This is common sense but I need to excuse you. Since you faith is based on such errors.

Ibrahim says: which means you are not using the great gift, God gave you and unable to understand that Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were not the disciples of Christ but those who recorded what they heard after Christ which at times are contradictory in nature.

Ibrahim says No, old man! Have to disagree with you on this. it can be done by looking at what the current English translations states as compared to what is being written in the bits and pieces of Greek manuscripts itself, as well as compared to Aramaic manuscripts ( Peshitta) kept by others.

Further, it can be established without doubts that the current English translations includes additions, mistranslations and omissions , which are being revised again and again, as this manhandling and mistranslations is coming to light.
So even without the Aramaic/Hebrew originals, it can proven the current translations of the Bible falls well short of accuracy.

Ibrahim says: that was due to your boundary markers and BLIND faith and the fact remains I established this was the case when I showed you that the word “born again” does not exist in the Greek manuscript, but had been mistranslated in the English translations in the earlier thread.

Ibrahim say: can you give evidence and source for this ** (5300) complete Greek manuscripts** in existence containing all the verse in INTACT form as appearing the Bible?

Ibrahim says: can you kindly tell us why than would the Aramaic manuscript ( peshitta) does not contain a number of NT books and has other books that are not found in the English or Greek NT?

Ibrahim says: If that is the case why would they have to make amendments/revisions of the bible? a notable one was the Holy Bible , with 20,000 amendments by J.T Conquest in 1841 and the revision of the Bible had not stopped even now.

So Old man, I know you need to belief what you need to belief, but some honesty is needed when we want to deal in the TRUTH.

Ibrahim says: I am sure you are mistaken, what exist today In ARABIC, is what was as conveyed by the Prophet and as compiled by God through his followers. What I think you are implying is concerning lose recordings which were recorded on bone, leafs, stones etc. which once compiled into book form will be naturally destroyed. Any tom, dick and Harry who knows about the Qur’an will attest that any Qur’an in Arabic is the originals for it ** because it was transmitted orally in Arabic and found in Arabic**, as well as in written form and none can dispute it with another version.

So kindly get your facts straight, so far as the Qur’an is concerned, the message is guaranteed by God , since it is the final message and no other Prophet or book will be revealed again for mankind .

Ibrahim says which means you do not understand ENGLISH too well, so let me guide you as always.

IN ESSENSE, here means, ** in or by its very nature of why the Torah was revealed ** , now I hope you can show me, or deny that God, had given the laws to Moses (torah) and asked the Israelites to follow anyone other than Moses (pbuh) to be saved ??

Now if you cannot deny this, than in essence the torah will say , the only way to the father was through Moses (pbuh).

Do you agree or do I need me to guide you further? BTW read Matthew 5:17, and you should have Christ attesting to that fact.

Ibrahim says: Old man are you denying what Christ said,

Kindly tell us why this statement made by Christ is false and yours is true?? ..

John 9:5 Jesus said: ** As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.**

Or

In John 14:15-16, Jesus says:
“If you love me, keep my commandments. ** And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another Comforter.” **

or

In John 16:7, we have Jesus saying :
“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth;** it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. However, if I depart, I will send him to you.” **

or

In John 16:12-14, Jesus says:

** “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear shall he speak. And he will show you things to come; and he shall glorify me.” **

Ibrahim says: are you a true Christian if you deny the above words spoken by Christ and insist that you will accept the words written by Paul or your church???

Ibrahim says: which means you will believe the people who wrote things about Christ and his disciples and deny what Christ said, won’t you?

Ibrahim says: what else do you expect the disciples to say ? Do you mean they will preach anything other than this??

Think old man, THINK!

When Christ was present amongst the disciples, salvation is only ** through** Christ ( meaning you follow his foot step and God will accept you, since God is the ONLY savior at all times) but when he left, not on his own account but because the Jews rejected him and wanted to kill him, Christ followers will still be preaching the same message, that is why the Spirit of Truth was sent 600 years later, in that time period, Christ was still the messenger that salvation was available for mankind ** but when the spirit of truth arrived, then salvation through Christ has ended.** This was the case for all revelations and messengers from the past.

Each messenger and prophet will have his own flock, for whom they will intercede in the hereafter, thus the mediator for Christians at the time of Christ was Christ alone but not after his message was abrogated (in about 600 years time, since NO more followers of Christ practicing Christ’s teachings survived) by the sending of the new comforter salvation through Christ seized.

Kindly read and ponder what the under mentioned verses conveys:

Matthew 7:21 Jesus said: ** Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens.**

Or

Matthew 8:11 But I (Jesus) say unto you,** that many shall come from the rising and setting sun, ** and shall lie down at table ** with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens;**

Or

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I ( Jesus) say to you, that ** the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing the fruits of it.**

Or

Mark 14:25 Verily I (Jesus) say to you, ** I will no more drink at all of the fruit of the vine** (meaning: drink wine) , ** until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.**

or

Luke 13:28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth ( meaning in hell) , when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob ** and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out.**

Or

Luke 22:30 that ye may eat and drink at my table** in my kingdom,** and sit on thrones ** judging the twelve tribes of Israel.**

Ibrahim says: which means you just slandered your own Gospel, because that was what you learned, without understanding what the Gospel says or what Christ said.

Imagine, here you are denying the above verses and attesting what was recorded by unknown people in the epistles (letters written by Paul to churches and gentiles ( non Jews) demand monies) .

Ibrahim says: that is your opinion and an erroneous one , since I have NO authority in Islam or any other religion, I merely know what their scriptures says and refute people who tend to conjecture/misguide or misconstrue, not knowing their scriptures, which is why you seem to have problems with me, since what I say, is backed by your own scripture and what you say is backed only by invented Christian dogma .

Now, if you want to deny what I say, kindly put forward the words of Christ ( not the words of Paul or from anonymous records) to refute me.

In the mean time let me give you my Hot Tip:

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Isaiah 45:21-22. “And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Saviour; ** There is none except Me. ** `Turn to Me, ** and be saved, all the ends of the earth;** For I am God, and there is no other.”

please also read

Hosea 13:4 ** Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, ** and thou shalt know no god but me:** for there is no saviour beside me.**

Ibrahim says: When God said; ** “all the ends of the earth”** He righteously meant it to be so.

** The era of “cross” should make no difference. **

hope that helps

regards
Ibrahim

** wisdom is an essence, not a thing, not an idea , not even a thought **

"As Christians you are telling me, that as a non-Christian, if I don’t do drugs, don’t drink alcohol, and don’t watch porn or molest children, my chances of ending up in heaven are dim compared to a Christian that have committed all these sins since he believes in the savor LORD CHRIST and has him in his heart?"

"Tell me, what is the message of Christianity then, that as a good Muslim, I have no chance in heaven compared to a sinful Christian. That covering Muslim women have no chance in heaven compared to a centerfold naked Christian model. "

Just because a person claims to be a Christian, does NOT mean they Have Jesus in Their Heart.

If a person Truly has Jesus in their Heart, they do NOT Live for the purpose of SIN, as do so many in this world, for indeed Most do NOT Know GOD.

yet, even in Muslim Countries, where You do NOT have the sinful things about as you have mention, is there a single one of you WITHOUT SIN?

So therefore You are no different than I, or anyone else upon this Earth.

Living a Life Pleasing to The Creator, is when One is FREE to CHOOSE to commit Sin, and yet does NOT.

The LAWS of your Land, is in Fact The reasons you do NOT have such Openness of SIN, yet your People are just as sinful and any other upon this EARTH.

FEAR of The LAW, is what keeps such SIN Hidden within the Hearts of Many among You.

A man who Lusts after another man's Wife in his Heart, but does NOT act upon it, is STILL GUILTY before GOD for Adultery.

A man who looks upon a Child Lustfully, and does NOT act upon it due to FEAR of being Caught, STILL is GUILTY Before GOD for the SIN of His HEART.

The ONLY FREEDOM from DEATH FOREVER, is JESUS CHRIST THE LORD.

Through Jesus, The WAGES of SIN Requiring DEATH has Been PAID for All Mankind, but each Heart MUST Ask for This GIFT from GOD with Their HEART.

There is NOT a single man upon this earth who can EARN his way to the CREATOR by Rightousness, for The Most Rightous man upon this earth, is but a Filthy scanvanger of this Earth before GOD HOLY GLORY!!!

Peace Be with You.

Lordspen <><

[quote]
Originally posted by enchanted:
what's going on here??
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Hello enchanted, don’t you know, this is the oldest trick in discussions. When someone is sinking, you will get someone trying to rescue the show or divert the issue, by claiming he/she is an innocent bystander, normally happens in all religious discussions, which is why I separated the earlier thread, since someone wanted desperately to cover up what was written in that thread.

[quote]
okay i guess ibrahim left the discussion after 3 christians came in.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: you must be kidding, I am busy with other issues and other forums too, so I may take some time to respond . so don’t worry by the Grace of Allah (swt), I will respond when Allah (swt) had willed. .

Not because of 3 christians, at the same time everyone can say what they want and should not be restrained because this is not a one to one discussion board or email exchange.

Regards
Ibrahim