When ever Changez, Sholay and Ibrahim recite quranic verses in their incessant rantings they refer to Allah as he. Now, if Allah is not a male or a female or a thing or whatever then why “he”. They claim that in the translation to english “he” is the best description.
That could mean two things. The quran is being altered or that Allah is like man. If the latter then we can worship “him” by creating the likeness of him in pictures and idols. Thus islam promotes idolatory.
Any takers?
And please do not give me references to the quran to justifies what it says in the quran. That’s circular logic.
[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
**When ever Changez, Sholay and Ibrahim recite quranic verses in their incessant rantings they refer to Allah as he. Now, if Allah is not a male or a female or a thing or whatever then why "he". They claim that in the translation to english "he" is the best description.
That could mean two things. The quran is being altered or that Allah is like man. If the latter then we can worship "him" by creating the likeness of him in pictures and idols. Thus islam promotes idolatory.
Any takers?
And please do not give me references to the quran to justifies what it says in the quran. That's circular logic.
thanks in advance.
**
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Without refering to Deutronomy, Bible or Quran, I can say only that religion is a male dominated society and since God is supposed to have said that He created Man in His image, it has been assumed that God should be refered to as 'He'. This is the best i can do without refering to any of the Holy Books.
What do you think the translation should be in English for something that does not posses a gender?
If the translators had translated 'She' for God then would that had been more appropriate? But why?
>That could mean two things. The quran is being altered <<<<
I define alteration as 'alteration in the orginal text' not in the different interpretations in the translations. That's why its almost always that whenever Quran is published the Arabic is along with the translation! So, your conclution is baseless.
>>>>or that Allah is like man. If the latter then we can worship "him" by creating the likeness of him in pictures and idols. Thus islam promotes idolatory.
How can a limitation in language carve out a belief that is not orginally in the belief system? Are you talking with experience with Hinduism?
Even if it was true, and Allah is to be considered like a man, I don't understand it in anyway related to 'creating the likeness of him in pictures' .... how did you come up with that logic?
MDPiazza said it very well. If the prophets were females, then Allah will be a She. Regardless, whether He, She, or It, God is not someone that needs any labels or Titles. Greeks and Romans poked fun at their Gods and called them Names – I sincerely believe that their God(s) were not any less celestial than Allah or any other God.
What do you think the translation should be in English for something that does not posses a gender?
If the translators had translated 'She' for God then would that had been more appropriate? But why?
>That could mean two things. The quran is being altered <<<<
I define alteration as 'alteration in the orginal text' not in the different interpretations in the translations. That's why its almost always that whenever Quran is published the Arabic is along with the translation! So, your conclution is baseless.
>>>>or that Allah is like man. If the latter then we can worship "him" by creating the likeness of him in pictures and idols. Thus islam promotes idolatory.
How can a limitation in language carve out a belief that is not orginally in the belief system? Are you talking with experience with Hinduism?
Even if it was true, and Allah is to be considered like a man, I don't understand it in anyway related to 'creating the likeness of him in pictures' .... how did you come up with that logic? **
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In english the term "it" can reflect a thing that is shapeless & with no gender.
I disagree the very minute you change an 'it" to 'he' the properties of the subject change. Therefore, those who do not know arabic but are muslims will always think of Allah as a 'he' per your logic. Which it is not. Therefore, quran is being altered everyday from it's original text to what people who translate it from arabic to other languages.
But 'it' is also used for things that have no life! Like a wood, plastic, steel etc. And as per 'your logic' 'IT' can be be worshiped by *'creating the likeness of him in pictures' * such as idols! Thus if Allah is refered to as 'it' still Islam will be encouraging Idolatory! Don't you think?
And what would you say to someone who asks why Allah is refered to as 'It' (a lifeless thing) if Allah is the giver & taker of life?!
Therefore, no matter what pronoun you come up with for Allah in English there will be someone not happy! Right now, in your opinion you are happy with IT and some others insist God to be SHE! And triditionally God is refered as HE!
Still, a different translation does not mean alteration in the orginal text. As the orignal is still there as it is!
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited August 28, 2001).]
But 'it' is also used for things that have no life! Like a wood, plastic, steel etc. And as per 'your logic' 'IT' can be be worshiped by *'creating the likeness of him in pictures' * such as idols! Thus if Allah is refered to as 'it' still Islam will be encouraging Idolatory! Don't you think?
And what would you say to someone who asks why Allah is refered to as 'It' (a lifeless thing) if Allah is the giver & taker of life?!
Therefore, no matter what pronoun you come up with for Allah in English there will be someone not happy! Right now, in your opinion you are happy with IT and some others insist God to be SHE! And triditionally God is refered as HE!
Still, a different translation does not mean alteration in the orginal text. As the orignal is still there as it is!
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited August 28, 2001).]**
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Animals are refered to as "it" Plants as "it". DO they not have life?
The true greatness of scripture is not the text but the interpretation and following of it. So if the message can be interpreted as Allah being refered to has a 'he" then humanity can picture Allah in Human form (term he being reserved for human males) therefore it is in contradiction to the quran suggesting that Allah is a shapeless and sexless being.
Let me ask you this, if 'IT' is used for animals, do they not have gender/sex? Why does English uses two pronouns 'it' and 'he/she' for animals. This is surely a contradiction and thus making English an ambiguous language!
And I have always used my Linux box as 'He', would that make 'it' a male? And would that be incorrect use of English?
Please correct the following:
I usually wash my car every weekend and 'she' looks great after 'her' weekly cleanup!
Well the use of masculine terminology in the Quran matches the words of the Prophet (SAWS) himself - there is absolutely no record of a pronoun other than "he" being used by the Prophets (SAWS) when referring to God.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited August 28, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
**When ever Changez, Sholay and Ibrahim recite quranic verses in their incessant rantings they refer to Allah as he. Now, if Allah is not a male or a female or a thing or whatever then why "he". They claim that in the translation to english "he" is the best description.
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Ibrahim says; I answered this earlier and you went num , I guess you need to trumpet this all the time or else you will have nothing to trumpet .
Just to make this more clear, why would it be inappropriate to address you as it? Sure you will cry I have gender . But in our current understanding , it or that means you know what it is ( in the sense that it has a structure , shape or known dimension, etc) And we know you have a shape so calling you it would be alright too but disrespectful …right?
At the same time it or that is used for lower forms of life. In the case of Allah (swt) HE IS THE SUPREME , even greater than anything we can see or know…hence it has been established by Allah (swt) that we either call Him by His names or we refer to HIM in the male gender out of reverence, ( since the male has been given the dominating role on this planet) .
We are NOT given or have no knowledge as to do otherwise. …got it?
Now either grow up or frolic in your well, but trumpeting the same stuff over and over again even after being advised , is disgusting.
WHATEVER YOU FAIL TO USE YOU LOSE!
PS: by the time you respond to this I could be on the road, hence insha Allah, will respond on my return ( may take a few days or weeks)
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Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** No, I am just trying to clearfy your opinion before I respond, so there are no misunderstandings. Are you familiar with that concept of clearity?**
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No one gave birth to him and he did not give birth to any one and therefore this gender business does not apply to Him. We refer to God as He from the tradition and understanding that he created Adam in His image and then Eve from Adam's rib.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says; I answered this earlier and you went num , I guess you need to trumpet this all the time or else you will have nothing to trumpet .
Just to make this more clear, why would it be inappropriate to address you as it? Sure you will cry I have gender . But in our current understanding , it or that means you know what it is ( in the sense that it has a structure , shape or known dimension, etc) And we know you have a shape so calling you it would be alright too but disrespectful …right?
At the same time it or that is used for lower forms of life. In the case of Allah (swt) HE IS THE SUPREME , even greater than anything we can see or know…hence it has been established by Allah (swt) that we either call Him by His names or we refer to HIM in the male gender out of reverence, ( since the male has been given the dominating role on this planet) .
We are NOT given or have no knowledge as to do otherwise. …got it?
Now either grow up or frolic in your well, but trumpeting the same stuff over and over again even after being advised , is disgusting.
WHATEVER YOU FAIL TO USE YOU LOSE!
PS: by the time you respond to this I could be on the road, hence insha Allah, will respond on my return ( may take a few days or weeks)
**
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That is the most ridiculous horsesh*@ I have heard to date on this topic. For one, your claim that "he" is superior than "it" based on comparison between lower life forms an humans only points to the fact that Allah is the creation of man. Man cannot go beyond it's limitations of classifications and out of arrogance has refered to god as "he". There lies the falacy of the scripture you so tout as immutable. It is not the word of god but of a man made phenomenon.
I just used your example, Mullah DP has said it concisely one post up.
Infoman admit it. What frustrates you is that Muslims are so strong in their belief and you cannot understand why. And you try every possible way to convince us that Allah does not exist, and that is why you come up with these idiotic posts. It is difficult to deal with Pagans like you. Now if we were discussing Islam with either Jews or christians (People of the Book), then we will be discussing something more important because they also believe in one God.
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Originally posted by Astronut:
*Infoman admit it. What frustrates you is that Muslims are so strong in their belief and you cannot understand why. And you try every possible way to convince us that Allah does not exist, and that is why you come up with these idiotic posts. It is difficult to deal with Pagans like you. Now if we were discussing Islam with either Jews or christians (People of the Book), then we will be discussing something more important because they also believe in one God. *
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I never said allah doesn't exist. I said what your thinking of allah is is false. Just like your claim that non-muslims' belief on their interpretation of god is false. I infact used the koran to prove to you that it is man made not divine.Kapeesh!