Iraqi's Feel Insurgents Wrath. 70 killed in last few days

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

This news was missed somehow, or is it not news when Muslims are killing others Muslims?

Ehh…ignore it, go back to blaming the Americans.

…
Mon, Dec. 06, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq - It was 8:30 a.m. Sunday, and a bus filled with Iraqi civilian employees came to a stop north of the city of Tikrit. Workers piled off.

Two cars pulled alongside, five to seven men got out, and they sprayed the unarmed civilians with automatic gunfire. When their bullets ran out, the gunmen drove away.

After the shooting, 17 Iraqis lay dead and 13 were wounded, raising the toll from three days of intensified and bloody insurgent attacks to at least 70 Iraqis dead and dozens wounded.

All the victims were unarmed, the latest casualties in a war that in the past few weeks has increasingly gone from direct clashes between insurgents and U.S.-led forces to rebel shootings of unarmed civilians, attacks on members of outgunned police forces and the use of car bombs. The change of strategy is designed to intimidate Iraqis in the run-up to Jan. 30 elections.

The intent of insurgents was spelled out in new pamphlets titled ``Democracy Is Anti-Islam’’ that authorities said were discovered over the weekend outside Baghdad.

``The pamphlets say they will cut off the head of anyone who takes part’’ in the election, said Sabah Kadhim of the Interior Ministry, adding that the pamphlets also threaten civilian employees of the U.S.-led coalition and interpreters.

The massacre of civilians in northern Tikrit was one of several strikes by insurgents up and down Highway One, a main north-south route. Fighters attacked in or near the cities of Baiji, Kirkuk and Samarra and engaged security forces in gunbattles in Baghdad, the capital.

Insurgents at dawn ambushed an Iraqi army convoy near Samarra, 65 miles north of the capital, killing one soldier and wounding four others, said Army Capt. Bill Coppernoll of the 1st Infantry Division, which has its headquarters in the area. The attackers used rocket-propelled grenades and small-arms fire, he said.

Several hours later, a car bomb blew up in Baiji, an oil-refining center north of Samarra, killing three Iraqi national guardsmen and wounding 18 others, a U.S. military statement said.

All told, 21 Iraqis were killed and 35 wounded in the day’s attacks, capping three days of violence that have left at least 70 people dead

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/10349894.htm?1c

2

Well, I guess all that is fine and dandy for you... By any chance have you heard "If you break it - you own it". My dear sir, now YOU own Iraq. Insurgents or whoever. If they kill people, its on your watch. Deal with it.

3

That's what the goal is, to fix Iraq. Unfortunately there are those who see Democracy as a threat to Islam and will do anything to stop it, including killing their own "brothers".

4

Yeah, well… whatever. Go fix it. Don’t come here complaining about “insurgents” then. You are a SUPER power, right? The insurgents will be a piece of cake for you :k:

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Well, I guess all that is fine and dandy for you... By any chance have you heard "If you break it - you own it". My dear sir, now YOU own Iraq. Insurgents or whoever. If they kill people, its on your watch. Deal with it.
[/QUOTE]
Great, since you can so flippantly dismiss the murder of fellow Iraqis becaus UTD owns Iraq, then it's only fair to be equally dismissive when it is the US that is blamed for killing civilians.

6

As if my being dismissive or not is gonna make a difference to those Iraqi civilians being killed (by both US Army AND insurgents)? I don't think so. Just as security in Manhattan is US government's problem, so is security in Fallujah and Tikrit. Deal with it.

7

Hopefully with the help of Pakistan it will be delt with.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/07/musharraf.london/

8

Haha.. For your own sake, I sincerely hope you are not relying on Pakistan to bail you out of there. And yeah, I am saying it, being a Pakistani myself. Consider it more like a friendly advice. :)

9

"bail you out "
"US government's problem"
"Deal with it"
"Go fix it."
"Don't come here complaining "
"fine and dandy for you"
"If you break it - you own it".
"YOU own Iraq."
"If they kill people, its on your watch."

Faisal, how many possible ways can you tell us you don't give a siht about the Iraqi people? As long as it's on the US watch, who cares, eh?

You know what the knee jerk reaction to those posts is? Have the US bail out and let them kill themselves until they can't kill any more. Then who will be complaining? Then who is going to bail out the Iraqi people?

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Well, I guess all that is fine and dandy for you... By any chance have you heard "If you break it - you own it". My dear sir, now YOU own Iraq. Insurgents or whoever. If they kill people, its on your watch. Deal with it.
[/QUOTE]

Weak.

Take a stand on the issue, Nancy. Who would you prefer to ultimately control Iraq?

If you say Islamic theocrats, you can be happy with the murder of their Muslim enemies.

If you answer Iraqis for Democracy, then you must vilify the insurgents who kill unarmed civilians.

Conveniently, you choose no answer, thusly you remain in the comfortable position of not having to state an opinion on Muslims who kill Muslims.

"You broke it, you fix it."-lame.

"I didn't break it, I won't fix it and most importantly I won't have a position as it makes me politically and socially vulnerable."

That's the credo for ya'.

11

You guys really like highlighting your own incompetence and don't you?

:Salute:

12

Guys, don’t blame me for the mess in Iraq. Lets get some perspective. Good or bad, Iraq was trudging along nicely before their moronic leader decided to invade Kuwait, and as a result the country got their asses whopped by a multi-national force whose main concern was the oil wealth in the area (circa 1991).

For the next decade or so, US and UK enforced no fly zones (without UN authority) and sanctions (with UN authority) to snub the loser of the First Gulf War. And in 2003, US finally decided that they now want to invade Iraq because Saddam is a bad boy (ok, no WMD jokes, promise!).

Now, when you do that, you do understand that the country of Iraq is a hot-podge of atleast three different communities (shias, sunnis and kurds) who hate each other with equal intensity. You remove the dictator and you have a ready-made mess in your hands. T’was not a secret, and everyone knew that, but US went marching ahead, confident that they will be garlanded as liberators and the country will roll over and accept US control, and immediately hold peaceful elections where a shia (who hopefully will hate Iran) will emerge as a victor who will promise to sell cheap oil to US (as a pay back for Liberation) and all will be well. Just the stuff, dreams are made of. :k:

Now, whats done is done. Despite the world opinon stacked against this, US went ahead and invaded Iraq and now presumably controls the country, courtesy 150,000 soldiers. There are people there who are fighting against them Yankees and there are people there who’d gladly kill other people there. Now that you have crowned yourself the “Occupiers of Iraq”, might as well take the responsibility a bit more seriously and secure the country so people are not killing each other.

The whole point of this thread was to show how bad these insurgents are that they kill each other. Yea. Bad bad bad. Ok? Move on. Fix the problem. Till the time you guys are there, no one else is gonna help you fix the problem anyway. Either shape up or ship out.

Comprenez! :slight_smile:

13

And just in case, you guys missed this (selective reading and all)… here you go. The point is that the ‘Broken Iraq’ is likely to get worse in coming days, and if you intend to start a new thread everytime ‘insurgents’ make a mockery of the security situation in Iraq, better massage your fingers and prep up your computers. You are in for the long haul, I hope.

CIA chief paints bleak picture in Iraq](CNN.com - Report: CIA chief paints bleak picture in Iraq - Dec 7, 2004)

The situation in Iraq is unlikely to improve anytime soon, according to a classified cable and briefings from the Central Intelligence Agency. The assessments are more pessimistic than the Bush administration’s portrayal of the situation to the public, government officials told the newspaper.

The classified cable – sent last month by the CIA’s station chief in Baghdad, who is winding up a one-year tour of duty there – painted a bleak picture of Iraq’s politics, economics and security and reiterated briefings by a senior CIA official, according to the Times article.

The cable, described as “unusually candid,” cautioned that security in the country is likely to deteriorate unless the Iraqi government makes significant progress in asserting its authority and building up the economy, the Times article said.

ps. These are just excerpts. For full story, click on the link

None of this should give readers any pleasure, ofcourse. Its a sad situation, all around. But if you intend to apportion blame here, we’ll just make sure it goes around evenly.

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Faisal: *
Move on. Fix the problem. Till the time you guys are there, no one else is gonna help you fix the problem anyway. Either shape up or ship out.
*Comprenez! :)
[/QUOTE]

O.K. So by stating, "fix the problem", can we take that as your tacit approval for the "democratization" of Iraq?

Since no one is gonna help. i.e. internal/external marginilization, squeeze of supply and funds, anti-insurgent information campaign,

I'll presume your cool with the fact that the "fix" is going to be a lot harsher, bloodier, more mosques raided, more collateral damage, etc.

I suspect a "fix" to everyones' satisfaction might have happened without a shot, had the French, Germans and Russians and U.N. had the courage to take a stronger stand in the beginning.

I think now that a war has been engaged, the "fix" would come sooner and with less human cost if:

more individuals would take a stand against the insurgents and their tactics (which was the point of the thread)

a legitmate collective voice locally in Iraq, the region and abroad were empowered politically to have a negative effect on the insurgency (see Ukaraine) and get on with the business of representative govt. for Iraqis and the potential for more peace and prosperity in the future.

This all assumes that one agrees that this is in the best interest of Iraq given the current circumstances-which I think is the dispute posed by this thread.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Guys, don't blame me for the mess in Iraq. Lets get some perspective. Good or bad, Iraq was trudging along nicely before their moronic leader decided to invade Kuwait, and as a result the country got their asses whopped by a multi-national force whose main concern was the oil wealth in the area (circa 1991). ...

And in 2003, US finally decided that they now want to invade Iraq because Saddam is a bad boy (ok, no WMD jokes, promise!).
...
Now, when you do that, you do understand that the country of Iraq is a hot-podge of atleast three different communities (shias, sunnis and kurds) who hate each other with equal intensity. You remove the dictator and you have a ready-made mess in your hands.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, under Saddam things were going swimmingly in Iraq ... unless you were one of the tens of thousands of Kurds he gassed or one of the tens of thousands of Shias who ended up in meat grinders or mass graves.

I will give Saddam one thing though. He sure knew how to keep them Iraqis passively in line and keep things trudging along nicely.

Maybe you think we should take a lesson from out of Saddam's book and fix things just as he fixed them. What we've got is too many whiners who wring their hands over a few thousand Iraqis dieing or a few dozen made to act out their fantasies in naked pyramids as we try to fix things. Time to gas tens of thousands, cut out a few tongues, hang some corpses from overpasses and really bring these Iraqis to their knees. Obviously, the only way to fix things in Iraq is to ratchet up the level of brutality to that which the Iraqis understand. Once that fixes things, Faisal, will you be happy? Will you be a good boy and keep quiet while we fix things like that just as you were a good boy and kept quiet when Saddam fixed things and had things trudging along nicely?

The insurgents seem to know how to cow the Iraqi people and they sure aren't hesitant to do that which is necessary. They cowed all of Fallujah. They cowed all of Najaf. Pardon us for a minute if we think we might be able to fix things by freeing people to vote rather than cowing them by terror. Of course, you could be right and the only way to deal with the masses over there is terror.

16

No, No, MV. Before Gulf war, Rumsfeld shook Sadaam's hand. Something in Rumsfeld's touch overtook Sadaam and made him gas and massacre thousands.

So, you see, that was another time we should have been "fixing" Iraq.

Don't press for answers.

Don't ask hard questions.

I don't know what to tell you, but I do know this.

Just fix it, please! Make it go away.

17

Frankly speaking I don't see much difference between US tactics and Saddam's tactics. The actual folks coming under the fire may be different. While under Saddam, he was gassing Kurds and killing Shias in Basra. Under US, its the sunnis under fire and the city of Fallujah is flattened out completely. Some estimates put the number of Iraqi civilian deaths in multiple thousands since 2003. So spare me the humane US mantra.

Both Saddam and US are raping Iraq. Only you guys whine a lot as you commit the act.

I think there is an international law that says that occupiers of a land are responsible to ensure security. Come on, you should know better. So, Mr Occupier/Liberator, insurgents is really your problem. If they kill people under your watch, don't look at us and say "bad, bad insurgents!"

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Frankly speaking I don't see much difference between US tactics and Saddam's tactics. The actual folks coming under the fire may be different. While under Saddam, he was gassing Kurds and killing Shias in Basra. Under US, its the sunnis under fire and the city of Fallujah is flattened out completely. Some estimates put the number of Iraqi civilian deaths in multiple thousands since 2003. So spare me the humane US mantra.

Both Saddam and US are raping Iraq. Only you guys whine a lot as you commit the act.

I think there is an international law that says that occupiers of a land are responsible to ensure security. Come on, you should know better. So, Mr Occupier/Liberator, insurgents is really your problem. If they kill people under your watch, don't look at us and say "bad, bad insurgents!"
[/QUOTE]

More's the pity that you don't see the difference between Saddam and the US.

And yes, you are correct that security is the primary responsibility of occupiers/liberators. But the insurgents are the problem of both the occupier and the occupied don't you think? They're not just killing the occupiers. They're killing everyone they can so that more killing can occur. And, by the way.....they are also a problem for one other group. Having wrapped themselves in the Quoran and in performing their heinous murdering carnage for and in the name of Allah, they are a pretty big problem for practicioners of Islam too. That's something that Muslims need to fix. That's more in your bailiwick than mine. Just fix it, please! Make it go away.

19

Looks like the Americans here aren’t the only ones whining. Even their soldiers have had enough of this farce that they call war. Haha, can’t say I am surpised. :hehe:

Rumsfeld Gets Earful From Disgruntled Troops

source

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

More's the pity that you don't see the difference between Saddam and the US.

And yes, you are correct that security is the primary responsibility of occupiers/liberators. But the insurgents are the problem of both the occupier and the occupied don't you think? They're not just killing the occupiers. They're killing everyone they can so that more killing can occur. And, by the way.....they are also a problem for one other group. Having wrapped themselves in the Quoran and in performing their heinous murdering carnage for and in the name of Allah, they are a pretty big problem for practicioners of Islam too. That's something that Muslims need to fix. That's more in your bailiwick than mine. Just fix it, please! Make it go away.
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, the blame displacement does not work. If you can just step back and look at the situation objectively, these so-called "insurgents" are doing what every patriot does anyway... fight the invading army. Any local who cooperates with the invading army is also an enemy. Don't tell me you have forgotten the French in WW II.

If US were under attack and Commies were occupying New York and Washington, won't you be attacking them? Won't you hate any American who is cooperating with Commies?

Any way, lets not digress. By invading Iraq, US has opened a worm hole. And now if you think others should bail you out or take the blame, then, tough luck.