[quote]
Frankly speaking I don't see much difference between US tactics and Saddam's tactics. The actual folks coming under the fire may be different.
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Faisal, is it because of the attacks on this forum against the evil "Mod Muslim"? The "US admits the war for hearts and minds in Iraq is now lost" thread, or what? What in the world brings on this mentality in an intelligent, free-thinking person living in California?
Frankly speaking, if you actually believe there isn't much difference between the US and Saddam, their tactics and their motives, you are a hypocrit for living here. I for one would be disgusted to live in a country where I thought the goals and ethics of my government were equal to Hussein. You are not criticizing the current administration (which I do), the government, or even the government's foreign policy - you are condemning the US for what it stands for.
If you have seen evidence on how a complete city (of Fallujah) was flattened out by bombing, you wouldn't be asking all these questions.
Then again, in your mind, killing the "insurgents" is probably more important because they oppose US occupation.
I listen to right-wing morons almost every day, who advocate dropping nuclear bombs on Sadar City, Tehran and Demascus (preferably at the same time), so that it will resolve 95% of problems for the US in the world. And you want to lecture me on free-thinking? Come again. :)
And by the way, get rid of this "hypocrite" complex. Madhanee criticizes Pakistan Army's killing of "3 million" Bengalis, in every third post he has. That does not make him a non-Pakistani or a hypocrite. A person has a right to express an opinion on any matter he wants, without having to defend his credentials to every Tom, Dick and Harry who disagrees. You don't like it, deal with it (alright, so thats my pet phrase in this thread!)
I wish you there was another way to have cleansed Falluhah. But do I believe the long term interests of the Iraqis were served in ridding a terrorist-besieged city? Yeah. Throughout history, including religous scripture, the unity and security of a people sometimes means warfare against those who do not want unity and security. The people of Iraq must be allowed to form a government and the 'insurgents' don't want that. Since it's not the responsibility of you, France, the Arab world, the ummah or anyone else, let the US do deal with it and let's sit back, judge and watch the Iraqis suffer. Hmmf. Not my problem.
I listen to right wing morons too. Talk radio and Fox. A lot of it makes me sick. Then I come here and listen to the total opposite POV. Equally as bewildering and nauseating. So I don't need to be told about free thinking either.
Is using the word 'hypocrit' any different than saying "So spare me the humane US mantra". Sorry, maybe I should use sarcasm and synonyms next time I want to imply double standards. Sure you are allowed your point of view, but as many liberal wackos I know and talk politics with, none of them (outside of this BB) say the US and Hussein are similar.
Similarly with the word 'lecture'. If you can lecture about whining and 'you broke it, you fix it', then be prepared to be called on your love for the American life and your disdain for the way it is achieved.
Some how I don't think the American dream was achieved by bombing the hell out of Fallujah... then again, I would leave it for you to co-relate. I am sure, if you try real hard, you can get there. Good luck.
You want sympathies on how insurgents killed 70 Iraqis? Thats all you are gonna get, by the way. Cz sure as hell, no one can help you there, since you guys occupy the whole country. What is it, that you actually want? Are you saying US can't rid Iraq of these "insurgents"? I am sure she can. United States is a SUPER power, for crying out loud. It just bombed flat a city of 300,000 people. You have 150,000 soldiers there. What else do you need?
If you want to believe the American dream is achieved by American disidents and protesters equating the US and Hussein, go for it. I'd like to see the America you envision.
The "c'mon, big boy, you are a super power, let's see you do it" chip on your shoulder while complaining about the 'leveling' of Fallujah doesn't jive either.
What else the US needs to bring security and a representative government to the people of Iraq is the backbone, yearning and actions of the Iraqi people to fight for some of it themselves instead of sitting back, judging those who are trying their damndest to do it for them and saying "ce n'est pas mon problème" like you and most of the ummah is doing (and has done).
Well, I am not an Iraqi sitting in Baghdad... so sorry to disappoint you if you wanted me to cheer up the US forces over there. You must be on the wrong forum. :)
Perfectly fine sentences may not jive with you, because you want to blame someone, and you just can't make up your mind who to blame. That doesn't change anything, actually.
Help me understand, why did UTD start this thread, again? "Insurgents kill 70 Iraqis". Bad insurgents? What do you want from us? "Hey Yankee boy! Go teach 'em a lesson!". Cheers! :)
Yeah. The insurgents think that they are fighting the invaders. And in the process any local who is helping the invaders is also an enemy.
I don't think you'd have any problem had the invaders been anyone other than United States. The concept worked fairly well in WW II when French were dealing with Nazi invasion... and more recently in Afghanistan when Afghans were fighting the Russian invasion. Those guys were heroes, remember. :)
Yeah, I guess if you see no difference between US and Saddam you'd aslo compare what the Nazis had in store for the French the equivialent to what the US is trying to do in Iraq. The French were fighting for their freedom, Iraqi insurgents are not. The US is trying to give them freedom they have never had.
Faisal, LT and LJ in Pakistan also believe that Shias are the enemies. Going by your definition, we should let LT guys kill all Shias, and then we can blame Mushy caz it is all happening under his watch.
Seminole, you can’t convince Faisal. He is coming from anti-American perspective and not necessarily from pro-Insurgent perspective.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The US is trying to give them freedom they have never had.
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Thats what you think. And thats fine. US is your country, so ofcourse you should defend its actions. Bravo!
But when whole cities of 300,000 people are being flattened out through bombing, and thousands of unarmed civilians are killed, the concept of "freedom" suddenly acquires a creepy undertone. But I guess that is something you won't understand. You came here to bad-mouth "insurgents" cz they are fighting the fancy US army. Had they been fighting Russian commies, they would still be heroes for you despite them killing 70 Iraqis. Its just the way we all think.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Yeah. The insurgents think that they are fighting the invaders.
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To what end? To make life better for the average Iraqi? Or to empower themselves a small religio/political minority to dictate the course for Iraq.
All insurgencies are not created equally I guess. Some truly are freedom fighters-fighting for the freedom of the people to set the course for their nation.
Others would appear to be fighting to suppress freedom as it is expressed in the form of representative government.
Can't we fairly assume that in your mind there is some preference for one or the other group's success? You are such a reasonable and intelligent individual, surely you have calculated some opinion on the outcome of this conflict and its longterm ramifications.
Outwardly, your "neutral" stance does come across as kind of a petulance. I truly would like to know if the outcome in Iraq truly matters very little to you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The US is trying to give them freedom they have never had.
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This post 911 mantra is a poor guise and it's wearing thin. And what type of freedom are we talking about? Freedom to bury whichever of your dead relatives wherever you want?
But lets give you the benefit of doubt and assume it true. What good is freedom when it comes at such a heavy cost and when it's being rammed down someone's throat? Hell, if my Army was getting blown to bits while trying to do a nation a FAVOR, I would say screw it and leave. No, the reason why you're still there is because there is much more at stake here than freedom. Although, I'll admit it sure makes for good propaganda.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Others would appear to be fighting to suppress freedom as it is expressed in the form of representative government.
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As the US and its goon Karzai are finding out (the hard way), a bunch of puppets and an imported restaurant manager from the US doesn't make for a good "representative government". Representative of what? Uncle Sam?
Funny how this "you break it, you bought it" thing has gotten perverted. Iraqis must also hold some responsibility. They cannot let their country be run by the insurgents, just because the insurgents are the most brutal and ruthless. And that is what we are talking about, people who will kill you and your family if you help remove the trash, chase criminals, or turn on the power. Eventually the insurgents will no longer get support from the population if these tactics continue.
And, amazing how all those people who were crying about sanctions are now greatly amused that US soldiers are dying. No more crocodile tears for the children with disease, and certainly no blame on the insurgents for making this worse. Nice how Muslims sit on their hands while innocent Iraqis die, while critiquing the US. Very constructive.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Nice how Muslims sit on their hands while innocent Iraqis die, while critiquing the US. Very constructive.
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Remind us to stand up when you're through destroying the place and contracting the reconstruction out to your corporations. Maybe we can get some Muslim governments to fund cleaning up the rubble and disposing of the corpses.
As the US and its goon Karzai are finding out (the hard way), a bunch of puppets and an imported restaurant manager from the US doesn't make for a good "representative government". Representative of what? Uncle Sam?
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What's your plan for Afghanistan? Can you give me evidence as to the poor job they are doing in the time they have been in office? Not just inklings or musings. Demonstrate how the latest government is making life worse and has the potential to make it worse in the future.
Just calling them puppets is not good enough by the way. Neither are references to poppy production.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Thats what you think. And thats fine. US is your country, so ofcourse you should defend its actions. Bravo!
But when whole cities of 300,000 people are being flattened out through bombing, and thousands of unarmed civilians are killed, the concept of "freedom" suddenly acquires a creepy undertone. But I guess that is something you won't understand. You came here to bad-mouth "insurgents" cz they are fighting the fancy US army. Had they been fighting Russian commies, they would still be heroes for you despite them killing 70 Iraqis. Its just the way we all think.
[/QUOTE]
Actually this thread isn't about them fighting the US, it's about them killing fellow Iraqis, but why should a little something like the facts get in the way of good 'ol anti-US bravado. Yeah, too bad freedom doesn't come cheap. Maybe that's something you don't understand. It sure would come a lot cheaper if the thugs who ruled under Saddam weren't killing everyone to keep their power. I guess if I were a communist or totalitarian smypathizer, maybe I would think the Afghan insurgents were heroes. But I hope for more for the Iraqis, like the freedom for self-rule. So you are right, it's just the way we all think
