Iraqi Kurds spark Turkish ire

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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One wonders why Turkey is so alarmed by this. Dont they have their own Kurdish population as well? Do they fear that Kurds will try to create a breakaway state within Turkey?
Kurds have suffered in the past. Uzbeks, Tajiks and other ethnic minorities (a.k.a NA) were used to fight against the Pashtun Taliban. This time Kurds will provide US with cannon fodder to topple Saddam’s regime. And to say that US feels the plight of Kurdish people is a fat lie.
They will just another one of those that will serve the national interest of US temporarily and discarded later and thrown into oblivion.

**Iraqi Kurds spark Turkish ire **

By Jim Muir
BBC Middle East correspondent

The decision of the Kurds of Northern Iraq to revive their regional parliament has roused the anger of their powerful neighbour, Turkey.

The Kurds’ relationship with Turkey has now deteriorated to a virtual war of words, with Turkish leaders accusing them of covertly preparing the way for an independent Kurdish state.

That is an anathema to the Turks because of their own large Kurdish minority.

**The Kurds are obviously lining up to associate themselves with the expected American move to bring about regime change in Baghdad, although the exact role envisaged for them remains unclear. **

But in doing so they are risking aggravating their immediate situation.

Strained relations

Iraqi Kurdish leaders have repeatedly stressed that their only ambition is regional autonomy within a democratic federal Iraq.

But no matter how loudly and how often they say that, Turkish suspicions apparently remain.

The Iraqi Kurds are hoping at least to dilute Turkish hostility by having their ideas for a democratic federation endorsed by a broad meeting of all the Iraqi opposition in Brussels in about a month.

But the Turks aren’t the only powers with whom the Kurds’ relations are strained.

Two other neighbours who also have Kurdish minorities - Syria and Iran - are watching the situation very closely too.

Further afield, Russia came in for a verbal lashing from one of the main Iraqi Kurdish leaders, Jalal Talabani, at Friday’s revival of the parliament.

He said Russia’s policies were much worse than those of the old Soviet Union, which had struck a balance between the Baghdad government and the Kurds, while Moscow today had sided entirely with Saddam Hussein.

**The Iraqi Kurds are convinced that Washington will go ahead with its plan to topple the Baghdad regime.

They seem to be becoming increasingly outspoken as that expectation grows.

But they are in a highly vulnerable situation. **

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Re: Iraqi Kurds spark Turkish ire

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by 5Abi: *
And to say that US feels the plight of Kurdish people is a fat lie.
They will just another one of those that will serve the national interest of US temporarily and discarded later and thrown into oblivion.
*
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct, and there is historical precedence of this.

Uptill 1975 the CIA used the Iraqi Kurds against the Iraqi government, to pressure them (the Iraqi govt) to sign a water treaty with their ally Iran. After they complied, the CIA dumped the Kurds and left them to the Iraqi governments mercy.

Now will they upset Turkey and allow the Kurds their own mini-state? If so, then be prepared for an awful messy situation in that part of Iraq.

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The kurds have suffered as much under Saddam as they have under Turkey. Their own language is outlawed. Their own shows, their own customs and traditions, all banned. That is not the way a secular and democractic institution should work. But hell they consider themselves muslims and ban Azaan. So much for honesty.

The kurds should be treated well, like they are in the Axis of Evil state of Iran. You ever heard of a kurdish problem in Iran or Syria? Nope. They respect their minorities and muslims. The US ally does not.

4

Iran and Syria respect minorities??

All religious minorities in both countries suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing.

In Syria, the government violates the right of Kurds to enjoy their own culture, use their own language, and exercise other freedoms of expression, in violation of international human rights standards.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

In Syria, the government violates the right of Kurds to enjoy their own culture, use their own language, and exercise other freedoms of expression, in violation of international human rights standards.
[/QUOTE]

Is that not the case in your strateically favoured ally Turkey as well? Do you want me to bring forward some reports as to how Turkey treats its 15 million plus Kurds?

The question remains will the US allow the Iraqi Kurds to set up a fully autonomous Kurdish entity, if they overthrow Saddam? Will such an autonomous entity not encourage the 25 million Kurds in Turkey, Iran and Syria to ask for the same? I don't think Turkey will allow this scenario to emerge in the first place, and will move into Northern Iraq with huge force to stop it. What will the American's do then?

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mallik when yoy look at these regions you will find south asia
is much bettter place for ethinic diversity. where else you will
find complelty two different linguistic syystem co-exist like dravidian
and hindi/urudu languages.with all the problems still all the languages
are still able to flourish.

http://www.megabaud.fi/~ernk/legalst.htm

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Is that not the case in your strateically favoured ally Turkey as well? Do you want me to bring forward some reports as to how Turkey treats its 15 million plus Kurds?
[/quote]

Yes. It's bizarre how every debating point somehow comes back to "blame America". The fact that fellow Muslims have treated the Kurds like 2nd class citizens is in no way US' fault.

[quote]
The question remains will the US allow the Iraqi Kurds to set up a fully autonomous Kurdish entity, if they overthrow Saddam? Will such an autonomous entity not encourage the 25 million Kurds in Turkey, Iran and Syria to ask for the same? I don't think Turkey will allow this scenario to emerge in the first place, and will move into Northern Iraq with huge force to stop it. What will the American's do then?
[/QUOTE]

I don't know what the US would do to stop them, although I don't see the Turks challenging the US. The Kurds deserve their own country, I hope they get it.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

I don't know what the US would do to stop them, although I don't see the Turks challenging the US. The Kurds deserve their own country, I hope they get it.
[/QUOTE]

Do you think the Turks will sit by and see the emergence of an autnomous Kurdish state in Northern Iraq, and do nothing? Its good that you sipport the freedom of the Iraqi Kurdish people, but do you support the freedom of the 15 million plus Kurds in Turkey as well? If so, how well do you think the Turkish government would react to that?

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Do you think the Turks will sit by and see the emergence of an autnomous Kurdish state in Northern Iraq, and do nothing? Its good that you sipport the freedom of the Iraqi Kurdish people, but do you support the freedom of the 15 million plus Kurds in Turkey as well? If so, how well do you think the Turkish government would react to that?
[/QUOTE]

When the ME was carved up, it was a mistake from the beginning not to have a country for the Kurds. I don't know how, but a state should be made for them. The Turks won't like it one bit.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

When the ME was carved up, it was a mistake from the beginning not to have a country for the Kurds. I don't know how, but a state should be made for them. The Turks won't like it one bit.
[/QUOTE]

Sem, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The 30 million or so Kurds of these 4 countries should have their own state, but the fact is your goverment or any other outside government is not going to come out and support this. So if the US government does launch a war against Iraq it will obviously (like the NA in Afghanistan) need the Iraqi Kurds and their fighers (the peshmerga) to do (some of) the ground fighting?

Now the Kurds have long waited (like the 63% of theIraqi population that is Shia Muslim Arab) to see Saddam be overthrown, and for them to have some sort of self-determination from mainly Arab-speaking Iraq. That will surely be opposed by normally stauch US ally Turkey, as explained before.

So the US will have to balance the national aspirations of the Iraqi Kurds, and its strategic alliance with Turkey? Do you think it will really choose principle (fulfilling Kurdish aspirations) over 'practical' considerations i.e. keeping Turkey on side?

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Hard to say. Kurds have been dissed or ignored by everyone. I'm sure the US will act in its own self interests (as all countries do)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I'm sure the US will act in its own self interests (as all countries do)
[/QUOTE]

Not all countries go around being global cop, but thats another matter. So basically you are admitting it will choose Kurdish-oppressing Turkey over the national aspirations of the Iraqi Kurds? In that case then the Americans's are going to find it awfully messy in Iraq.

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I'm not admitting anything. I am only giving my opinions as I do not formulate US foreign policy. What I am saying is that the US will probably act in its own self-interests, just as Pakistan did when it abandoned the Taliban.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
What I am saying is that the US will probably act in its own self-interests...
[/QUOTE]

So it wll not allow the Iraqi Kurds some sort of self-determination, because they don't want to upset Kurdish-oppressing Turkey?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

I don't think Turkey will allow this scenario to emerge in the first place, and will move into Northern Iraq with huge force to stop it. What will the American's do then?
[/QUOTE]

Salaam Malik, Your opinions are getting real again indeed and you always astonish me coz your analysis get real though you are away from this region. Too many turkish troops are now near Iraq border. They are doing maneouvres. The army declared that "setting a kurd state is a reason for war for us". Barzani threaned Turkey 2 mounts ago and said if Turkey enters here we will make kurdistan a big grave for turkish army" and this made nervous army forces. I think this is why usa is delaying bombing iraq coz she knows that if they bomb iraq this will seperate Iraq and let kurds settle a free country but this means turkey will enter Iraq and region will completely become like a hell and this probability prevents usa. Also Iran and syria is against such a country. This kurdish state is regarded as a base for Israel and usa by iran government and it is regarded as a threat by turkey. What I know is half of the north iraq is composed by turkomans who are basically turks and they live mainly near KERKUK in where oil place is. Turkish governments say those turks are under protection of Turkey and if kurd leaders make a mistake to them this is enough reason for them to enter north iraq. There are already special turkish special forces in iraq and they are establishing Turkoman army forces and training turkomans about war. So ppl can witness too bad events there. Turkish army is the second big aramy in NATO (their real soldier number: 1.300.000.000, %60 budged is used for army, they buy accessantly gun even from pakistan, if someone comes Ankara he will realise that even in all corners there are army places and since I did my army duty in iraq border I know closely that almost on all that mountains there are army troops like flood and they became too professional in war coz of war with PKK for 15 years, turkish troops occupied Cyprus in a very short timeeven greece could not resist agains them and barzani and talabani will not be able to do nothing against them). Also there are unregular voluntarely turkish militia forces (I mean they have capacity to make this force in emergence situations) called GREYWOLVES (ultra-nationalistturkish citizens and they are as much as diciplined as real soldiers and the SPECIAL MOVEMENT TEAMS are composed by them, you can recognize them by long moustaches) and they can establish hundred thousands army forces in a short time, also the biggest reason to enter iraq for turkish government is because there is a election 1 mounth later and according to last polls Tayyip erdodan's party is getting %35 and his party is regarded islamic and if there happens a war this will cause the election delay according to laws.

Also turkey claims that they have right to enter iraq coz as you know after ottoman was collapsed british occupied iraq and seperated fro ottoman and in Lousaane agreement with western occupiers afetr freedom war took place only iraq border was not determined and the decision was delayed coz british did not to give that oil place to turks. Actually according to MISAK-I MILLI precept (it means national terriotaries in where turks are living must belong turkey and this precept was claimed by parliament) MOUSUL, KERKUK, ERBIL were in turkish state and turkish army as near iraq border to fight with british in 1920s to occupy there but this probable was was prevented by other countries. I mean the government also regarded himself right according to international law.

As to persecution kurdish issue, I do not agree you and your friends. their condition in turkey is not like palestenes of israel or kashmiris of india But it is normal to have different opinions. I am thinking and can not find a reason to claim that there is discrimination against kurds. if kurdish villagers are poor also turkish villagers are poor too. All citizens share poverty. Take care...

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This is the sickness of nationalism in Muslims, Kurds, Turks ,Iraqis ect ect-the ID of "momin" is lost amongst us. In this sad reality its fair if the Kurds get a homeland, they are muslims and have suffered immensely. The sadness of the event is truly that their oppressors have been so called muslims.

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*Originally posted by Galatasaray: *

Salaam Galatasaray, my Turkish brother, :)

[quote]
The army declared that "setting a kurd state is a reason for war for us". Barzani threaned Turkey 2 mounts ago and said if Turkey enters here we will make kurdistan a big grave for turkish army" and this made nervous army forces. I think this is why usa is delaying bombing iraq coz she knows that if they bomb iraq this will seperate Iraq and let kurds settle a free country but this means turkey will enter Iraq and region will completely become like a hell and this probability prevents usa.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree that this will happen, and this is what the United States has not factored into its plans over Iraq. I do not believe that the American's understand the gravity of feeling in Turkey over the Iraqi Kurdish question. That could you lead the USA into a terrible political-military nightmare, stuck between three different and competing sides (Iraqi Arabs, Iraqi Kurds and Turkey).

[quote]
This kurdish state is regarded as a base for Israel and usa by iran government and it is regarded as a threat by turkey.
[/quote]

That could be very true. I have read about how Mossad has helped the Iraqi Kurds in previous armed struggles with the Iraqi regime, most notably in the mid-1970's.

[quote]
What I know is half of the north iraq is composed by turkomans who are basically turks and they live mainly near KERKUK in where oil place is. Turkish governments say those turks are under protection of Turkey and if kurd leaders make a mistake to them this is enough reason for them to enter north iraq. There are already special turkish special forces in iraq and they are establishing Turkoman army forces and training turkomans about war.
[/quote]

Yes, there are some half a million Turkoman's in Northern Iraq, and as they are close ethnic kin of Turkey, then it is natural that Turkey would have an interest in their welfare. But I doubt the US government is that aware of the Turkoman-Kurdish rivalry in Iraqi Kurdistan.

[quote]
also the biggest reason to enter iraq for turkish government is because there is a election 1 mounth later and according to last polls Tayyip erdodan's party is getting %35 and his party is regarded islamic and if there happens a war this will cause the election delay according to laws.
[/quote]

I pray for the day that Turkish people get rid of the extreme secularlist governments that have ruled it for nearly 80 years, and that Turkey returns to its historical roots. :)

[quote]
Also turkey claims that they have right to enter iraq coz as you know after ottoman was collapsed british occupied iraq and seperated fro ottoman and in Lousaane agreement with western occupiers afetr freedom war took place only iraq border was not determined and the decision was delayed coz british did not to give that oil place to turks. Actually according to MISAK-I MILLI precept (it means national terriotaries in where turks are living must belong turkey and this precept was claimed by parliament) MOUSUL, KERKUK, ERBIL were in turkish state
[/quote]

Yes thats true, the British did take the mainly Kurdish-speaking Mosul Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire and add it on to the Arab-speaking Baghdad and Basra Vilayets to create modern Iraq.

[quote]
As to persecution kurdish issue, I do not agree you and your friends. their condition in turkey is not like palestenes of israel or kashmiris of india But it is normal to have different opinions. I am thinking and can not find a reason to claim that there is discrimination against kurds. if kurdish villagers are poor also turkish villagers are poor too. All citizens share poverty.
[/quote]

Please don't take me wrong, I do not believe in the propoganda put out by the terrorist PKK movement, and I don't believe all the so-called Human righjts reports, but I would like to know from you on the Turkish Kurds.

:)

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mallik you left out majority iraqui who are sheites. that is going to be a problem between arabas and iran.

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Rvikz, the shia are the minority, not the majority. Also Galatrasaray, Malik knows so much because he has been bought by the CIA :D However i do differ than malik. Knowing a couple of turks in real life, what the govt has done to the kurdish people is wrong and they have commited crimes. However they do so from what i know without a majority support among the population. Though Turkey's western portion is extremely westernized, the eastern protion is not really so. They are more asian then european. Thus you end up two very different groups of thoughts that are struggling to guide Turkey

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cm this the statistics about iraq.

Ethnic groups: Arab 75%-80%, Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%

Religions: Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%