Re: Iran’s President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
Yea…and not particularly moderate!!! editing my posts!!! and clearly taking sides!!!
Iran presidents misquoted to propogate war in Iran
As usual, the media is in choates with the war mongering corporations!
this article i found notes how the Irani president has been misquoted to further demonize the government to propogate war in Iran! this article is by non-arab/ and non-muslim authors.
here’s the link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
Does Iran’s President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?
An analysis of media rhetoric on its way to war against Iran - Commenting on the alleged statements of Iran's President Ahmadinejad .
**By Anneliese Fikentscher and Andreas Neumann
Translation to English: Erik Appleby**
**04/19/06 "****[Kein Krieg!](http://www.arbeiterfotografie.com/galerie/kein-krieg/index.html)" -- -****- - ***"But now that I'm on Iran, the threat to Iran, of course -- (applause) -- the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel. That's a threat, a serious threat. It's a threat to world peace; it's a threat, in essence, to a strong alliance. I made it clear, I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally, Israel, and -- (applause.)"* George W. Bush, US-President, 2006-03-20 in Cleveland (Ohio) in an off-the-cuff speech (source: [www.whitehouse.gov](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060320-7.html)) But why does Bush speak of Iran's objective to destroy Israel?
**Does Iran's President wants Israel wiped off the map?**
To raze Israel to the ground, to batter down, to destroy, to annihilate, to liquidate, to erase Israel, to wipe it off the map - this is what Iran's President demanded - at least this is what we read about or heard of at the end of October 2005. Spreading the news was very effective. This is a declaration of war they said. Obviously government and media were at one with their indignation. It goes around the world.
But let's take a closer look at what Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said. It is a merit of the 'New York Times' that they placed the complete speech at our disposal. Here's an excerpt from the publication dated 2005-10-30:
"They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan. Let's take a step back. [We had a hostile regime in this country which was undemocratic, armed to the teeth and, with SAVAK, its security apparatus of SAVAK [the intelligence bureau of the Shah of Iran's government] watched everyone. An environment of terror existed.]]] When our dear Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Iranian revolution] said that the regime must be removed, many of those who claimed to be politically well-informed said it was not possible. All the corrupt governments were in support of the regime when Imam Khomeini started his movement. [All the Western and Eastern countries supported the regime even after the massacre of September 7 [1978] ]]] and said the removal of the regime was not possible. But our people resisted and it is 27 years now that we have survived without a regime dependent on the United States. The tyranny of the East and the West over the world should have to end, but weak people who can see only what lies in front of them cannot believe this. Who would believe that one day we could witness the collapse of the Eastern Empire? But we could watch its fall in our lifetime. And it collapsed in a way that we have to refer to libraries because no trace of it is left. Imam [Khomeini] said Saddam must go and he said he would grow weaker than anyone could imagine. Now you see the man who spoke with such arrogance ten years ago that one would have thought he was immortal, is being tried in his own country in handcuffs and shackles [by those who he believed supported him and with whose backing he committed his crimes]]]. Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."
(*source: [www.nytimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/weekinreview/30iran.html?ex=1141966800&en=5035dfc8b7afc70d&ei=5070), based on a publication of 'Iranian Students News Agency' ([ISNA](http://www.isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-603386)) -- insertions by the New York Times in squared brackets -- passages in triple squared brackets will be left blank in the ** [MEMRI](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=selective+memri&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web)** version printed below*)It's becoming clear. The statements of the Iranian President have been reflected by the media in a manipulated way. Iran's President betokens the removal of the regimes, that are in power in Israel and in the USA, to be possible aim for the future. This is correct. But he never demands the elimination or annihilation of Israel. He reveals that changes are potential. The Shah-Regime being supported by the USA in its own country has been vanquished. The eastern governance of the Soviet Union collapsed. Saddam Hussein's dominion drew to a close. Referring to this he voices his aspiration that changes will also be feasible in Israel respectively in Palestine. He adduces Ayatollah Khomeini referring to the Shah-Regime who in this context said that the regime (meaning the Shah-Regime) should be removed.
Certainly, Ahmadinejad translates this quotation about a change of regime into the occupied Palestine. This has to be legitimate. To long for modified political conditions in a country is a world-wide day-to-day business by all means. But to commute a demand for removal of a 'regime' into a demand for removal of a state is serious deception and dangerous demagogy.
This is one chapter of the war against Iran that has already begun with the words of Georg Meggle, professor of philosophy at the university of Leipzig - namely with the probably most important phase, the phase of propaganda.
Marginally we want to mention that it was the former US Vice-Minister of Defence and current President of the World Bank, Paul D. Wolfowitz, who in Sept. 2001 talked about ending states in public and without any kind of awe. And it was the father of George W. Bush who started the discussion about a winnable nuclear war if only the survival of an elite is assured.
Let's pick an example: the German online-news-magazine [tagesschau.de](http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID4895462_NAV_REF,00.html) writes the following about Iran's president on 2005-10-27: "There is no doubt: the new wave of assaults in Palestine will erase the stigma in countenance of the Islamic world." Instead of using the original word 'wave' they write 'wave of assaults'. This replacement of the original text is what we call disinformation. E.g. it would be correct to say: "The new movement in Palestine will erase the stain of disgrace from the Islamic world." Additionally this statement refers to the occupation regime mentioned in the previous sentence.
As a precaution we will examine a different translation of the speech - a version prepared by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), located in Washington:
"They [ask]: 'Is it possible for us to witness a world without America and Zionism?' But you had best know that this slogan and this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved. ...]]] "'When the dear Imam [Khomeini] said that [the Shah's] regime must go, and that we demand a world without dependent governments, many people who claimed to have political and other knowledge [asked], 'Is it possible [that the Shah's regime can be toppled]?' That day, when Imam [Khomeini] began his movement, all the powers supported [the Shah's] corrupt regime ...]]] and said it was not possible. However, our nation stood firm, and by now we have, for 27 years, been living without a government dependent on America. Imam [Khomeni] said: 'The rule of the East and of the West should be ended.' But the weak people who saw only the tiny world near them did not believe it. Nobody believed that we would one day witness the collapse of the Eastern Imperialism *, and said it was an iron regime. But in our short lifetime we have witnessed how this regime collapsed in such a way that we must look for it in libraries, and we can find no literature about it. Imam [Khomeini] said that Saddam [Hussein] must go, and that he would be humiliated in a way that was unprecedented. And what do you see today? A man who, 10 years ago, spoke as proudly as if he would live for eternity is today chained by the feet, and is now being tried in his own country ...]]] Imam [Khomeini] said: 'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.' This sentence is very wise. The issue of Palestine is not an issue on which we can compromise. Is it possible that an [Islamic] front allows another front * to arise in its [own] heart? This means defeat, and he who accepts the existence of this regime * in fact signs the defeat of the Islamic world. In his battle against the World of Arrogance, our dear Imam [Khomeini] set the regime occupying Qods [Jerusalem] as the target of his fight. I do not doubt that the new wave which has begun in our dear Palestine and which today we are also witnessing in the Islamic world is a wave of morality which has spread all over the Islamic world. Very soon, this stain of disgrace * will vanish from the center of the Islamic world - and this is attainable."
*(source: [http://memri.org](http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP101305), based on the publication of 'Iranian Students News Agency' ([ISNA](http://www.isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-603386)) -- insertions by MEMRI in squared brackets -- missing passages compared to the 'New York Times' in triple squared brackets)*
The term 'map' to which the media refer at length does not even appear. Whereas the 'New York Times' said: "Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map" the version by MEMRI is: "Imam [Khomeini] said: This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history."
MEMRI added the following prefixed formulation to their translation as a kind of title: "Very Soon, This Stain of Disgrace * Will Be Purged From the Center of the Islamic World - and This is Attainable". Thereby they take it out of context by using the insertion 'i.e. Israel' they distort the meaning on purpose. The temporal tapering 'very soon' does not appear in the NY-Times-translation either. Besides it is striking that MEMRI deleted all passages in their translation which characterize the US-supported Shah-Regime as a regime of terror and at the same time show the true character of US-American policy.
An independent translation of the original (like the version published by [ISNA](http://www.isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-603386)) yields that Ahmadinejad does not use the term 'map'. He quotes Ayatollah Khomeini's assertion that the occupation regime must vanish from this world - literally translated: from the arena of times. Correspondingly: there is no space for an occupation regime in this world respectively in this time. The formulation 'wipe off the map' used by the 'New York Times' is a very free and aggravating interpretation which is equivalent to 'razing something to the ground' or 'annihilating something'. The downwelling translation, first into English ('wipe off the map'), then from English to German - and all literally ('von der Landkarte löschen') - makes us stride away from the original more and more. The perfidious thing about this translation is that the expression 'map' can only be used in one (intentional) way: a state can be removed from a map but not a regime, about which Ahmadinejad is actually speaking.
Again following the independent translation: "I have no doubt that the new movement taking place in our dear Palestine is a spiritual movement which is spanning the entire Islamic world and which will soon remove this stain of disgrace from the Islamic world".
It must be allowed to ask how it is possible that 'spirtual movement' resp. 'wave of morality' (as translated by [MEMRI](http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP101305)) and 'wave of assaults' can be equated and translated (like e.g [tagesschau.de](http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID4895462_NAV_REF,00.html) published it).
**Does Iran's President deny the Holocaust?
**
"The German government condemned the repetitive offending anti-Israel statements by Ahmadinejad to be shocking. Such behaviour is not tolerable, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier stated. ...] Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel proclaimed Ahmadinejad's statements to be 'inconceivable'" (published by [tagesschau.de](http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID5046484,00.html) 2005-12-14.
But not only the German Foreign Minister Steinmeier and the Federal Chancellor Merkel allege this, but the Bild-Zeitung, tagesschau.de, parts of the peace movement, US-President George W. Bush, the 'Papers for German and international politics', CNN, the Heinrich-Böll-Foundation, almost the entire world does so, too: Iran's President Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust.
What is this assertion based on? In substance it is based on dispatches of 2 days - 2005-12-14 and 2006-02-11.
"The Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has stepped up his verbal attacks against Israel and the Western states and has denied the Holocaust. Instead of making Israel's attacks against Palestine a subject of discussion 'the Western states devote their energy to the fairy-tale of the massacre against the Jews', Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday in a speech at Zahedan in the south-east of Iran which was broadcasted directly by the news-channel Khabar. That day he stated that if the Western states really believe in the assassination of six million Jews in W.W. II they should put a piece of land in Europe, in the USA, Canada or Alaska at Israel's disposal." - dispatch of the German press agency [DPA](http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/:Iran-Die-Gefahr-Nahen-Osten/551450.html?eid=553073&s=2&nv=ex_rt), 2005-12-14.
The German TV-station [n24](http://www.n24.de/politik/ausland/index.php/n2005121409162900002) spreads the following on 2006-12-14 using the title 'Iran's President calls the Holocaust a myth': "The Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has stepped up his verbal attacks against Israel and called the Holocaust a 'myth' used as a pretext by the Europeans to found a Jewish state in the center of the Islamic world . 'In the name of the Holocaust they have created a myth and regard it to be worthier than God, religion and the prophets' the Iranian head of state said."
The Iranian press agency [IRNA](http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0512149877153313.htm) renders Ahmadinejad on 2005-12-14 as follows: "'If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.' ...] 'If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there.' ...] Ahmadinejad said some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets ...] The president further said, 'If your civilization consists of aggression, displacing the oppressed nations, suppressing justice-seeking voices and spreading injustice and poverty for the majority of people on the earth, then we say it out loud that we despise your hollow civilization.'"
There again we find the quotation already rendered by n24: ** "In the name of the Holocaust they created a myth."** We can see that this is completely different from what is published by e.g. the DPA - the massacre against the Jews is a fairy-tale. What Ahmadinejad does is not denying the Holocaust. No! It is dealing out criticism against the mendacity of the imperialistic powers who use the Holocaust to muzzle critical voices and to achieve advantages concerning the legitimization of a planned war. This is criticism against the exploitation of the Holocaust.
[CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/) (2005-12-15) renders as follows: "If you have burned the Jews why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this **huge crime**, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"
The Washingtonian ''[Middle East Media Research Institute](http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=963)' (MEMRI) renders Ahmadinejad's statements from 2005-12-14 as follows: "...we ask you: if you indeed committed this great crime, why should the oppressed people of Palestine be punished for it? * ...] If you committed a crime, you yourselves should pay for it. Our offer was and remains as follows: If you committed a crime, it is only appropriate that you place a piece of your land at their disposal - a piece of Europe, of America, of Canada, or of Alaska - so they can establish their own state. Rest assured that if you do so, the Iranian people will voice no objection."
The MEMRI-rendering uses the relieving translation 'great crime' and misappropriates the following sentence at the * marked passage: "Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions." This sentence has obviously been left out deliberately because it would intimate why the Israeli state could have forfeited the right to establish itself in Palestine - videlicet because of its aggressive expansionist policy against the people of Palestine, ignoring any law of nations and disobeying all UN-resolutions.
In spite of the variability referring to the rendering of the statements of Iran's President we should nevertheless note down: the reproach of denying the Holocaust cannot be sustained if Ahmadinejad speaks of a great and huge crime that has been done to the Jews.
In another [IRNA-dispatch](http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0512143109174339.htm) (2005-12-14) the Arabian author Ghazi Abu Daqa writes about Ahmadinejad: "The Iranian president has nothing against the followers of Judaism ...] Ahmadinejad is against Zionism as well as its expansionist and occupying policy. That is why he managed to declare to the world with courage that there is no place for the Zionist regime in the world civilized community."
It's no wonder that such opinions do not go down particularly well with the ideas of the centers of power in the Western world. But for this reason they are not wrong right away. Dealing out criticism against the aggressive policy of the Western world, to which Israel belongs as well, is not yet anti-Semitism. We should at least to give audience to this kind of criticism - even if it is a problematic field for us.
2006-02-11 Ahmadinejad said according to [IRNA](http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0602115001164557.htm): "...] the real holocaust should be sought in Palestine, where the blood of the oppressed nation is shed every day and Iraq, where the defenceless Muslim people are killed daily. ...] 'Some western governments, in particular the US, approve of the sacrilege on the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), while denial of the >Myth of Holocaust<, based on which the Zionists have been exerting pressure upon other countries for the past 60 years and kill the innocent Palestinians, is considered as a crime' ...]"
The assertion that Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust thus is wrong in more than one aspect. He does not deny the Holocaust, but speaks of denial itself. And he does not speak of denial of the Holocaust, but of denial of the Myth of Holocaust. This is something totally different. All in all he speaks of the exploitation of the Holocaust. The Myth of Holocaust, like it is made a subject of discussion by Ahmadinejad, is a myth that has been built up in conjunction with the Holocaust to - as he says - put pressure onto somebody. We might follow this train of thoughts or we might not. But we cannot equalize his thoughts with denial of the Holocaust.
If Ahmadinejad according to this 2006-02-11 condemns the fact that it is forbidden and treated as a crime to do research into the Myth of Holocaust, as we find it quoted in the [MEMRI](http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1034) translation, this acquires a meaning much different from the common and wide-spread one. If the myth related to the Holocaust is commuted to a 'Fairy Tale of the Massacre' - like the [DPA](http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/:Iran-Die-Gefahr-Nahen-Osten/551450.html?eid=553073&s=2&nv=ex_rt) did - this can only be understood as a malicious misinterpretation.
By the use of misrepresentation and adulteration it apparently succeeded to constitute the statements of the Iranian President to be part and parcel of the currently fought propaganda battle. It is our responsibility to counter this.
Concluding:
A dispatch by Reuters confirms 2006-02-21: "The Iranian Foreign Minister Manuchehr Mottaki has ...] repudiated that his state would want the Jewish state Israel 'wiped off the map'. ...] Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. 'Nobody can erase a country from the map.' Ahmadinejad was not thinking of the state of Israel but of their regime ...]. 'We do not accredit this regime to be legitimate.' ...] Mottaki also accepted that the Holocaust really took place in a way that six million Jews were murdered during the era of National Socialism."
The next step is to connect the Iranian President with Hitler. 2006-02-20 the Chairman of the Counsil of Jews in France (Crif) says in Paris: "The Iranian President's assertions do not rank behind Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'". Paul Spiegel, President of the Central Counsil of Jews in Germany, 2005-12-10 in the 'Welt' qualifies the statements of Ahmadinejad to be "the worst comment on this subject that he has ever heard of a statesman since A. Hitler". At the White House the Iranian President is even named Hitler. And the German Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel as well moves over Iran's President towards Hitler and National Socialism by saying 2006-02-04 in Munich: "Already in the early 1930's many people said that it is only rhetoric. One could have prevented a lot in time if one had acted... Germany is in the debt to resist the incipiencies and to do anything to make clear where the limit of tolerance is. Iran remains in control of the situation, it is still in their hands."
All this indicates war. Slobodan Milosevic became Hitler. The result was the war of the Nato against Yugoslavia. Saddam Hussein became Hitler. What followed was the war the USA and their coalition of compliant partners waged against Iraq. Now the Iranian President becomes Hitler.
And someone who is Hitler-like can assure a hundred times that he only wants to use nuclear energy in a peaceful way. Nobody will believe him. Somebody like Hitler can act within the scope of all contracts. Acting contrary to contract will nevertheless be imputed to him. "Virtually none of the Western states recognize that uranium enrichment is absolutely legal. There is no restriction by contract or by the law of nations. Quite the contrary: Actually the Western countries would have the duty to assist Iran with these activities, according to the Non-Proliferation Treaty. As long as a state renounces the bomb it is eligible for technical support by the nuclear powers." (Jörg Pfuhl, ARD radio studio Istanbul 2006-01-11) But - all this does not count if the Head of a state is stigmatized as Hitler.
*****
Re: Iran presidents misquoted to propogate war in Iran
I personally find this guy very interesting... I would love to read more about him from an unbiased source, any links?
Re: Iran presidents misquoted to propogate war in Iran
I want to believe this but I think it is just another spin. whne the whole world media is screaming headlines about what Ahmedinejad said, if he didn't really say/mean those things, wouldn't his people simply issue a correction?
Re: Iran presidents misquoted to propogate war in Iran
^ everyone wants to sell their paper
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
Murder is murder...when the Russian and Japs killed, they did so with impunity. Germans were more efficient...used the tools of an industrial society to carry out their goal of genocide.
But genocide is genocide.
btw. The Khans have the record.
The Holocost is now an abstract part of the Western mythos...truth be told, the majority of Westerners were quite racist at the time and could care less about the plight of the Jews (although it made for great propoganada). It's senseless to question why Westerners emote so heavily around the Holocaust...it's a part of the culture, even if it wasn't historically unique.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
If Murder is murder then why arent you crying for the 10,000 Americans who are murdered each year as compared to the 1,000 Palestinians who have died each year since the Intifada began?
You cant make a generalization like that. When one group of people were rounded up and gassed that is different as civilians or soldiers dying on the battlefield.
True, because in the 1930's many German Jews wanted to migrate to USA but USA quotas limited their enterance into USA.
Holocaust was historically unique because it was a systematic murder of an entire race based solely on racial philosophy and hatred.
This has never happened and the only close is the Turkish mass muder of 1.5 million armenians in 1915 but in that they were machine gunned to death and many died while being re-located.
In a similar fashion, 1 Million Germans civilians died when they were fleeing the oncoming Russian Army in 1944-45.
But the holocaust where people were rounded up, send on trains, to a place where they were to be killed has never happened before or since.
Re: Iran’s President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
Ok you Israeli hating posters and I know there are many, enjoy this…
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
David Duke is only presenting a balanced view on Israel... He went to tehran to support free speech, which is something lacking in the world when it comes to Israel... If you get you nose out of Israels rear end you might see that... He is right, America is ruled by the Israel lobby... Just look at the facts. America is the one country that blocks all criticsm of Israel. Its an obvious bias.
You percieved logical argument is just naive and one sided.
You as a palestinian hater should go live there and see the generosity of Israel yourself.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
I dare you to find one post, just one post in which I stated that I hate Palestine
See that is your problem, you presume things when you dont know the facts and that is exactly why you are defending known racists like David Duke because he criticizes Israel
Are you ready to beleive Hitler too?
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
Anything that David Duke supports is likely to be wrong. Not just his southern kkk bigotry but I have heard of other stuff. Including where he committed criminal offences and spent time in jail.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
See that is your problem, you presume things when you dont know the facts and that is exactly why you are defending known racists like David Duke because he criticizes Israel
Are you ready to beleive Hitler too?
Interesting take from David Duke. I dont know much about his background, but i definately agree with his points in the interview. and considering he was actually there, his view is most likely to be credible, which is alot more than i can say for the folks reporting on the issue.
garmi: Duke was a former kkk, former being the key word. Hes actually quite smart for a bigot (as you like to percieve him). he portrayed the double standards of american media quite effectively and not only that, he initiated the much needed dialogue with tehran about issues relating to iran aswell as america, something the american gov still cant seem to get the grasp of...
A few facts that need to be clarified here:
1) The conference in Tehran was not held to deny the holocaust as the media's and reporters put it, but to find out the facts surrounding it. According to ahmadinejaad's statements, if the evidence was to say it happened as it did, then they were willing to accept it. This aim was akin to an academic research rather than to debunk the idea, aj has never denied nor accepted the holocaust, in any of his speech for this reason.
2) The holocaust is not likely to have been taught or discussed as an essential part in schools, coll and uni's in iran, not to the same extent atleast, hence they have a totally different outlook on it, and cannot fathom the big hoo haa westeners tend to create over mentioning the holocaust.
i mean its akin to some one innocently mentions something, the other person misunderstands and reacts hysterical; the first person is stunned at the reaction as they dont understand why anyone would react as such and would like to get to the botom of it... but the hysterical folks wont let it and keep behaving like some traumatised pshyco..thats how alot of folks are seeing aj comments and the wests reaction on the holocaust.
The positive aspect of this is that should they do objective research (which is the intended aim) they will be able to think outside the box, as opposed to those folks who are emotionally entrenched into it since childhood, it is embedded in their school history books to such an extent that any questions over it is a no-no.
3) If you think about it, from what academics say, 11 million people (now dont label me as a holocaust questioner, but some estimates say 26 million) were killed by hitler. Now only (its a big only) 6 million were jews, why do we not hear about the 5 million others who were killed?
when millions of muslims, christians, gypsies, poles, serbs, africans, homos and disabled folks were also murdered, the question is, why is it solely associated with jews? now dont label me as an anti semite or whatever, but isnt there something wholly disturbing about this? whose idea was it to focus on the jews and forget the rest..? and please spare me the systamatic crap. it makes no difference what so ever.
i think some folks have been seriously brainwashed or disgustingly selective in their show of sympathy here.
4) As for the issues of freedom of speech, a nation that imprisons, demonises, tortures, spies on, and harrasses innocent people... how do you claim to be any different from the mideastern countries you criticise for their lack of freedom?
5)why if freedom of speech is so valued in the west, are people being demonised and arrested for debating on the holocaust. dukes and ahmadinejaad's speech were taken out of context and manipulated it villify these folks. all its really done is prove dukes point, the media is totally gagged when it come to israel and the holocaust.
Re: Iran’s President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
There are also bigots who insult Islam who are quite smart. Why dont u defend them as well?
Since most of the people attending the holocaust are racists and holocaust deniers. What conclusion do you think they will reach?
Actually it was taught in Iran but after the 1979 revolution, most of the mention of the Jewish suffering was removed
you mean like muslims reacting to the Prophet Muhammed’s Cartoons?
Objective Research? With people like David Duke on the research panel, how cannot it be not objective?:halo:
The exact number of Europeans that died in World War II is 38 Million. Of which 27 Million were russians, 6 million Jews and 4 Million Germans and rest were other europeans.
The reason we don’t hear about other people being suffering like the Jews because due to Israel and it being surrounded by countries that want to destroy it like Iran the image of the holocast keep coming back into the people’s mind. 2nd, of the 7 Million Jews in Europe in 1939, 6 Million were killed by 1945. Or 85% of the entire Jewish population of Europe was wiped out. The remaining 1 million were mostly in England and Spain and the 250,000 Jews saved by Raoul Wallenberg, a Swedish Diplomat.
No other ethnic group had that casualty rate. Whether they be gypsy, roma, gay, mentally challenged, etc…
This was the systematic murder of an entire race of people from the continent of Europe.
If another Hitler comes to power in Europe and then starts up the gas chambers and kills 85% of all Muslims in Europe. 60 years later after that event and how would muslims react when this dramatic part of their history is questioned?
Read Above.
Yup just like some muslims who only care about the Palestinians and no one else
Quite simply, I can practice my faith in relative comfort and ease. Some people may get tortred, spied on and harassed but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the middle eastern countries.
If you are sure, try being a Jew in the Middle East vs being a Jew in North America and see where he has more freedom.
If the West is so anti-freedom then y are millions of muslims lining up on US Embassies to try to get a visa and immigrate here?
Its just a few countries that have laws agaisnt denying the holocaust which are France, Germany and Austria. Denying the holocaust is not a crime in USA and other countries and thats why racist groups like KKK, Aryan Brotherhood can march openly and rail against blacks, muslims and jews.
The reason why france, austria and germany have laws against the holocaust is that they were enacted in 1947 to prevent Nazis from gaining power again.
Talk about taking things out of context, you just labelled the entire West as jailing everyone who denies the holocaust where as I have just told you only 3 or 4 countries have laws against such things and those were enacted in 1947 to prevent the bloodbath that occured during World War II
David Duke is a racist and nothing more. But Muslims supporting racists and Jew Haters like David Duke is nothing new. Muslims and Arabs also supported Hitler. So I guess these muslims who support David Duke are in good company.
As for Ahmedinijad, he is the Bush of the Middle East.
As for people who defend these people all it does is proves that given a chance Jews can again be send to the death chambers and this time unfortunately they will be running by brainwashed muslims who have been taught to hate jews since they grew up.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
10,000 Americans? You mean as in homicide? Because America has a functional justice system that seeks to implement justice.
If indeed you had 10,000 Americans, say African-Americans, being systemically abused and dehumanized by the state apparatus, yeah...I'd be just as irate.
When the Mongols put to death the Chinese peasantry, it WAS just as horrific as the Holocaust, if not more, speaking in terms of human cost.
The holocaust was only unique on trivial bits...the only reason why it is significant was because so many people died. Mass murder in a systemic way is hardly unique in human history.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
If indeed you had 10,000 Americans, say African-Americans, being systemically abused and dehumanized by the state apparatus, yeah...I'd be just as irate.
When the Mongols put to death the Chinese peasantry, it WAS just as horrific as the Holocaust, if not more, speaking in terms of human cost.
The holocaust was only unique on trivial bits...the only reason why it is significant was because so many people died. Mass murder in a systemic way is hardly unique in human history.
The holocaust was unique because never before had an entire race of people been systematically wiped out like the Jews in an industrial way like getting them to register, then putting them on trains and then putting them in gas chambers and then burning their bodies.
Mass Murder has happened throughout history but not on the scale of this.
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
Mass Murder has happened throughout history but not on the scale of this.
I understand...but so what if it was unique in this way? Let's say that instead of slaughtering the Jews Hitler merely ordered their expulsion...even if it was systematically done, and done along racial lines...I would hardly think it would be as relevant.
Yes, it was unique...and it's alarming because it shows that a modern nation state can do what we typically are indoctrinated to believe they can't; here you have the industrial and scientific establishment being fully complicit in mass murder. In that sense, it's much more relevant than, say, the Mongolian genocides.
But I'm loathed to suggest it's somehow worse....
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out
Yes, it was unique...and it's alarming because it shows that a modern nation state can do what we typically are indoctrinated to believe they can't; here you have the industrial and scientific establishment being fully complicit in mass murder. In that sense, it's much more relevant than, say, the Mongolian genocides.
But I'm loathed to suggest it's somehow worse....
Hitler's initial plan was to move all Jews to Madagascar but the conference in Wannese in January 1942, Reinhard Heydrich revelaed that the Germans have perfected a Gas which can kill humans in less than 2 minutes where as before the Gas took 15 Minutes.
So in camps like Aushwitz can kill 30,000 Jews each day.
As for the Mongol Genocides, they were barbaric in their own sense but to me thats like the German invasion of the Soviet Union in which 27 Million Russians died.
The difference however is the fact those Russians mostly died due to battle related deaths where as Jews were rounded up and killed.
For example in the Bosnian War, 100,000 Serbs, Croats and Bosnians died.
But we still remember the massacare at Sebrenicia where 8,000-10,000 Muslim men were rounded up and killed.
Re: Iran’s President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
i dont percieve him as a bigot, 30 years ago maybe but not now, he doesnt hate jews, he hates the leadership/gov but that doesnt come under bigotry in the slightest.
racist? i dont think so, holocaust deniars? i dont think so either. neither duke, nor the orthodox jews or ahmadinijaad or anyone else there claimed as such. your sources need to check up on that again.
well there you go, a whole generation or two of folks who dont understand where these hysterics are coming from.
yes..i think you got the gist. but remember one is a religious figure and the intention was to offend, the other is a historical event and the intention was to debate. the latter is more innocent and sincere in its objectives.
errr yeah..david duke is an educated guy..hes a qualified dr. and a lecturer. just because you dont like his views, or what he did thirty years ago, it doesnt mean you can judge his intentions or lessen his credibilty. I mean atleast hes made an effort to reach out, thats alot more than i can say for the american gov. If you wanna know who prolly is seen as a bigger bigot in the world right now, it would def. be american gov. hands down.
and secondly its not dependent on one person, theres a whole range of people with different interests and background. its too bad the media forgot to cover the actual conference but focused on the spin instead.
err there was a systematic murder of entire nationalities, faiths and physical mobility, and features.. race is just one of the factor. the jews and everyone else that actually suffered under hitler’s, they deserve our full sympathies. but not following generations, who didnt suffer as much yet abused the sympathy card so badly , to the effect of killing others, that all you feel for them is disgust that they could be so low. that generation of victims is long gone, but that mentality still exists to a sickening degree.
im not sure but ive a feeling we’ll find out pretty soon.
err and that is related how..?
so you’re idea of human rights comparing youre yourselves to the mideast? i would a thought being ‘champion’ of human right you’d have different standard to look up to. Technically, it shouldnt happen at all, on a one off occasion it maybe overlooked, but when it becomes a government policy then there’s seriously something wrong. gitmo is still an issue and its not a small one either. the random guy who was transported to syria to be tortured was not a minor issue either. you may think youre safe but with these kinda policies by the gov, how can you be so sure that next time it wont be you..?
Re: Iran’s President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
And you gained all this by watching a 7 minute interview on Wolf Blitzer… and not reading his speeches, his brochures like I have…
What they claim or don’t claim is irrelevant. What actions they do is what matters and so far they have acted like the Nazis hosting a conference on what to do with the Jewish Question and then coming up with the Final Solution.
I dont think the intention was to debate but to prove it wrong which gives a greenlight to carry out another holocaust.
David Duke is an educated guy? So is Bush, he has an MBA from Harvard…
The only thing this conference was intended to show that Jews lied about the Holocaust and used it to create Israel and thus no Jewish suffering in WWII and thus they are open to another holocaust because the first one never happened.
But it was the Jews whose 85% of their entire population was wiped out. Just as in the Bosnian War many Serbs and Croats and Muslims died but we remember the Muslim victims as they were murdered after being rounded up.
Its related because muslims make an issue out of palestine as it is the most important event happening at the current time because the aggressors are Jews.
And yet, millions of muslims are lining up to migrate to america. I have family in america, they have never experienced racism or any form of bigotry. There are some isolated cases of muslims being picked up but they are isolated.
And for you to make the comparison of freedoms in the West as compared to the mideast just proves to me once again that your knowledge about such matters is so inherently weak and you are pretty much repeating what you hear on mosques or on biased ARabic news channels without doing independent research on your own
Re: Iran's President says that Israel will soon be wiped out / misquoted (merged)
What they claim or don't claim is irrelevant. What actions they do is what matters and so far they have acted like the Nazis hosting a conference on what to do with the Jewish Question and then coming up with the Final Solution.
I dont think the intention was to debate but to prove it wrong which gives a greenlight to carry out another holocaust.
David Duke is an educated guy? So is Bush, he has an MBA from Harvard....
The only thing this conference was intended to show that Jews lied about the Holocaust and used it to create Israel and thus no Jewish suffering in WWII and thus they are open to another holocaust because the first one never happened.
But it was the Jews whose 85% of their entire population was wiped out. Just as in the Bosnian War many Serbs and Croats and Muslims died but we remember the Muslim victims as they were murdered after being rounded up.
Its related because muslims make an issue out of palestine as it is the most important event happening at the current time because the aggressors are Jews.
And yet, millions of muslims are lining up to migrate to america. I have family in america, they have never experienced racism or any form of bigotry. There are some isolated cases of muslims being picked up but they are isolated.
And for you to make the comparison of freedoms in the West as compared to the mideast just proves to me once again that your knowledge about such matters is so inherently weak and you are pretty much repeating what you hear on mosques or on biased ARabic news channels without doing independent research on your own
don't tell other ppl they dont know anything!!! just because they don't agree with your version of the "truth"!!!!!