Investigation : Did Muslims drive Buddhists out of India ??

Due to repeated allegations that the decline of Buddhism in India was soley due to the barbaric advance of Islam, this thorough report on the history of the rise and fall of Buddhism in India has been prepared for those that wish to know more about this interesting subject. I have started on the second chapter of Dr Jamandas’s scholarly work in order to get to the gist of the subject matter as soon as possible.

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http://www.dalitstan.org/books/decline

Decline and Fall of Buddhism
by
Dr. K. Jamanadas
Chapter 2

As Dr. Ambedkar has explained, the causes of fall and decline are different. Muslim invasion was the cause of fall of Buddhism, not only in India, but also all over the world. Before Islam, countries like Bactria, Parthia, Afghanistan, Gandhar and Chinese Turkasthan, as well as whole of Asia were Buddhists. It had also spread to Europe and the Celts in Britain were Buddhists, according to Donald A. Mackenzie. [W&S, vol.3, p.230]

As The reasons why Buddhism was destroyed but Brahmanism survived the massacre by Muslims must be understood. There are three reasons enumerated by Ambedkar,

(1) support of State to Brahmanism,

(2) Buddhist Bhikkus, once perished had be created from scratch by rigorous training, while Brahmin priests are ready made by birth and

(3) that Buddhist lay worshipers were driven to Islam by Brahmanic persecution. [W&S, vol.3, p.230] Prof. Surendra Nath Sen very rightly observed, during the Indian History Congress held at Allahabad in 1938, that there were no satisfactory answers as yet to two problems concerning medieval history of India, one connected with origins of Rajputs and the other to the distribution of Muslim population in India. [W&S, vol.3, p.236]

The common belief that Islam followed the route of conquest forcing its faith over the subjugated people, Prof. Sen said, cannot explain Muslim conversion in eastern Bengal having no racial affinity with the conquerors, though it might explain conversions in western regions like Afganisthan and Punjab, which had some racial affinity since Kushana times. So the reasons are to be found elsewhere. That the reasons were persecution by Brahmins of the converted masses, who were predominantly Buddhists. Ambedkar thinks, Sen’s following passage is very significant:
“It cannot be an accident that the Punjab, Kashmir, the district around Behar Sharif, North-East Bengal where Muslims now predominate, were all strong Buddhist centres in pre-Muslim days. It will not be fair to suggest that the Buddhists succumbed more easily to political temptations than the Hindus and change of religion was due to the prospects of the improvement of their political status.” [W&S, vol.3, p.236]
That brings us to the real cause of the fall of Buddhism in India was persecution of the Buddhists, which went on for centuries causing gradual decline, and ultimately lead to its fall. Ambedkar gives examples of many kings persecuting Buddhists and concludes that the fall of Buddhism was due to the Buddhists becoming Muslims for escaping the tyranny of Brahmanism. “If it has been a disaster, it is a disaster for which Brahmanism must thank itself.” [W&S, vol.3, p.238]

Before coming to the effects of fall of Buddhism, which is our main subject, we have briefly discussed the various causes that led to this tragedy which befell on this country. As exclaimed by L. M. Joshi, this tragedy is mostly ignored or distorted by the elite of this land for selfish motives. [L.M.Joshi:1977:xvii] Here we like to discuss the techniques used by Brahmanism.

Violent Methods of Brahmanic Conquest

One of the methods of spread of Brahmanism was by slow cultural Invasion. Question some times is asked why they did not resort to armed struggle. As a matter of fact, when the situation permitted, they even did that. The cultural invasion was the best means adopted by them, though armed aggressions were attempted throughout, right from the times of the Buddha. Even before Pushyamitra Shunga, Chanakya seems to have brought in Chandragupta Maurya on throne to annihilate Nanda kings. Unfortunately for Brahmins the coup backfired as Chandragupta became a Jaina and Ashoka became a Buddhist monk first and later upasaka. His images as a Bhikshu, were seen by Chinese traveler I-Tsing, and his rock edicts mention about his becoming a Buddhist. Major armed offensive was launched in times of Pushyamitra under guidance of Patanjali. Still the masses accepted Kushanas rather than submit to Brahmana rule. Brahmanas had to bring in the Guptas, and under Samudragupta Brahmin supremacy prevailed. It was after Harshavardhana in seventh century A.D., that Brahmins got the real chance of perpetrating their supremacy. One of the means was by creating the Rajputs. Those were the means of armed struggle arranged by Brahmins.

Conquest by peaceful means

During this period they spread to Kerala. The evidence for study of their invasion on Buddhist social culture is more easily available in south India and specially Kerala, where Brahmin penetration was much later and more difficult than in North India. Here their method was more of Cultural Invasion. It is therefore, necessary to concentrate on South India and presume the same techniques must have been employed in the entire country, which requisite regional adjustments. Mr. Nair explains as follows:

"Theoretically then we might ask why the Brahmins could not achieve a military conquest and achieve ethno- expansionism … The answer is the Brahmins in the initial stages of their cultural conquest had only an intense apostolic motivation unaccompanied by the resources to organize themselves into armed bands. Indeed it is much later history when they were finally successful in entrenching themselves as a religious oligarchy within the kingdom of a “Kshatriya” prince and goading him to undertake religious wars and expansion through “Aswamedhayagas”. [emphasis ours] Similarly the Nambudiri Brahmin in ancient Malabar could have only attempted a peaceful cultural conquest through astute ways and not through force as he was himself bereft of the means to compel the Nayars to follow his ways except that of persuasion through example and precept. [Nair:1959:10]

[Dr. K. Jamanadas is a distinguished academic with research experience in several different fields. A retired surgeon by profession, (67), with an F.R.C.S. from Edinburgh, he is recognised as one of the best surgeons in India. In addiition, he is also a graduate of Nagpur University in Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archeology. He was member of Board of studies in History in Nagpur University for two terms of three years each, making substantial contributions to the knowledge of ancient Indian history. He is the author of several famous books, including the path-breaking “Tirupati Balaji was a Buddhist Shrine,” a translation of L.K.Malavi’s `Patana’ and several others. His voluminous publications have earned him the distinction of being one of the foremost Dalit historians ever.]

(to be continued)

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[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited March 03, 2001).]

there was discrimination against bhuddism
since it chalenged castesim. that why people
from india went sri lanka formed own country

Thank you rvikz for your honest reply. This thread is to clear up some misconceptions being spread by Rani that muslims were responsible for the declne and physical expulsion from India.

Despite requests for this approach to be dropped the allegations and smears have continued so the record needs to be set straight.

Jamnadas?? Who?? I would rather go by account in ‘encyclopedia britanica’ or account by some historians rather than activists or reputed websites like dalitstan.

rvikz, source please, this is most stupid history of buddhism in lanka i ever heard. this is what britanica says about it. http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/0/0,5716,115240+4+108590,00.html

I'm not really sure how your article on Sri Lanka and the arrival of Buddhism is relevant to the topic, which is about the decline of Buddhism in India.

The material above is all well referenced and each excerpt can be sourced back to the original.

Last time you pulled out an article from Britannica, it turned out to be by a maratha historian eulogising the maratha hindu warrior Shivaji, so please provide the name and background of any author who you quote here.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
I'm not really sure how your article on Sri Lanka and the **arrival of Buddhism is relevant to the topic, which is about the decline of Buddhism in India.**

Oh! well.. read rvikz's reply .. the one u welcomed wholeheartedly.. mine was a reply to it.. or deviating from topic is allowed if it suits u and not otherwise..

*The material above is all well referenced and each excerpt can be sourced back to the original. *

You checked all that? Did u?
**
Last time you pulled out an article from Britannica, it turned out to be by a maratha historian eulogising the maratha hindu warrior Shivaji, so please provide the name and background of any author who you quote here.**
if best scholarship on shivaji is with a maratha historian, britanica will approach it. section on sikhs, if i remember right was written by khushwant singh.. You can not blame britanica if scholarship on anything is not available in ur pureland and the jamna das and ganga das and dalitstan and stuff u r fond of quoting is not taken seriously anywhere.. let us know if u r ever invited to write anything by britanica..

zz You and your encyclopaedia.If you look for who destroyed Babri or caused Mumai riots they cant tell by reading ENCYCLOPAEDIA,why? b/c India Govt which makes news doesnt release cohort secret files to them,And Encyclopedia only knows what is given to them.They are NOT authoritative last word,So shut u r encyclopedia & read this
http://news.indya.com/newshtml/pmtears.htm
 PM’s Taliban remarks: Is the pot calling the kettle black? Prabha
Chandran • Delhi • March 3 • 4:00 PM IST

The “barbaric and anti-civilisational” destruction of the two Buddhist
statues in Afghanistan so outraged the Indian government that Prime
Minister Vajpayee personally went on a frantic diplomatic spree to seek
global and UN intervention to prevent the “senseless and destructive
act.”
How touching!

In a show of great concern, he even offered to transport the two statues
to India.

“The collective voice of humanity,” he cried, “must be raised against
this outrage.”

How nice that the pot is now calling the kettle black!

Where was Mr Vajpayee’s ‘civilized sensibilities’ that fateful day - Dec
6, when the world watched in horror as his own party systematically
destroyed the centuries old Babri Mosque?

He now accuses the Taliban leader Mulla Mohammed Omar of religious
bigotry and fundamentalism but where were his own secular ideals on that
day?

“These politicians have no values,” says one Delhi housewife, “they all
change their tune when they come to power.”

“Is Home Minister L K Advani or Sports Minister, Uma Bharati, more
enlightened than Mullah Omar?” asks a Delhi University student.

“They are the main accused in the Justice Leiberhans Commission on Babri
but now they are all suffering from selective amnesia! Which judge has
the guts to punish them?” he asks.

But if Vajpayee and his ministers go further back in history to the
first Hindu revival during the reign of Shankaracharya in the 8th
century, they will discover something else that many historians know.

That the Hindus themselves have destroyed many Jain and Buddhist temples
and statues in India.

As leading art historian and monument restorer O P Jain puts it: “This
sort of thing has been going on for thousands of years. If Mohammed
Ghauri destroyed the temple of Somnath, then Qutabuddin Aibak destroyed
26 Jain temples in Delhi to build the Qutab Minar.

“But in this globalised world, we are right to expect a more enlightened
appreciation for world heritage. This religious fanaticism is madness,
it will put us back in the Stone Age,” he muses.

In the West, there was a tacit understanding during the last World War
that historic monuments in France, Germany, Italy and Britain would not
be bombed.

Why, even during the Gulf War, the US deployed smart bombs that would
wipe out the enemy - but leave old buildings standing.

While that presents us with another ethical dilemma, there’s no two
opinions on the shelling and blasting of the 50 metre Buddha in Bamiyan.

The Taliban, like the BJP, did it for political gain.

As Mr Rabindra Seth of Heritage India puts it, “The Taliban is telling
the world, impose as many sanctions as you like, we don’t give a damn.”

Currently, there are only three nations in the world that recognise the
Taliban regime - Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia.

What’s more, in recent years Russia, India and the US are closely
coordinating their fight against global terrorism and squeezing
Afghanistan for refusing to hand over Osama Bin Laden, the mastermind
behind the growing jihad movements in the world.

“You can expect religious and cultural terrorism when you push someone
into a corner, ” says Jain, “the only country which could have mediated
was Pakistan but they didn’t - and later they said they were dismayed at
the destruction!”

Like Mr Vajpayee’s crocodile tears, they’re only meant for political
gain.   «
udget   
---------------------------------------- http://news.indya.com/newshtml/pmtears.htm


"jo kHat main kahte they apni jaan mujhko
aaj kHat likhne main unki jaan jaati hai …

[This message has been edited by FYI (edited March 03, 2001).]

From previous discussion,India is equating its own genocide of muslims &Buddhist with this bloodless ,without any harm to buddhist or buddhism act ,no matter how UNPOPULAR yet LEGAL.Just as election of Bush or non impeachment of Clinton WAS LEGAL BUT UNPOPULAR..Being unpopular is NOT criminal ,but riotous acts of killing ppl. while adherent of the mosque STILL exist IN THE COUNTRY (namely 150 mil Muslims) IS!

Buddhism born in India but only Buddhist in India are Tibetan Refugee,Induction of aryan invaders cast system,brutalization of dravidian & dalits ,caused decline of Buddhist & buddhism in India to migrate to adjoining South Asian china japan,thailand Indonesia.

How can one statue of buddha ,could take all of buddhuism 's collective
memory &buddhist history world over with it ,when billions of its image
likeness will be left behind to rmind you of its existence & history
,History is not one statue or one text book that you can wipe it so
easily.Taleban,are not against buddhuism for rest of the world ,but they
just exerting there rights by virtue of possession as INDIA DOES WITH
KASHMIER & AYODHYA.

Calm down ,fake hindu tears.Hindu displaced buddhists . mOslems then
displaced hindus for 1000 yrs.
Dont try to cover you hindus barbarism from 100 ad to 1000,a.d
demolishiung buddhist stupa with shiva lingham.Dont shed crocodile tears
for you first finished buddhism.
Here what use is idol of buddha when there is NO buddhist.
CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY BUDDHISTS ARE THERE IN INDIA ??ASIDE FROM
TIBETAN BUDDHISTS WHO ARE NOT INDIAN BUT TIBETAN,SO DONT START TAKING
CAUSE OF YOUR VICTIM AT THE EXPENSE OF ANTAGONIZING MUSLIM.MIND YOUR OWN
LINGHAM IN INDIA ,YOU CROCODILE!!!!

BJP is erstwhile Hindu Mahasabha RSS ,the party of Goalwalker ,& murderer of leader of the WORLD- mahtma Gandhi.Mahatma may be hindu but not Nathuram Or hindumaha sabha kind.What does the bjp become if seen in contrast to Mahatma .ATMA less .Sometimes you define a thing better by knowing what it it isnt
HINDU MAHASABHA IS EQUIVALENT OF TALEBAN KETTLE & THE POT
1/bjp /Rss-hate muslim -islam

2/ think they have greater right why?? if they r hindu then so was Mahatma ,why one kind of hindu has more right.

3 ./ bjp is in search of making the rest of the hindu like them/rss.mahasabha hi.

4/i dont care whether india is a theocratic state or secular ,basic human decency rights & respect & attitude is much more than constitution which for minoreties is meaningless b/ c in democracy below thresh hold vote is ZIPPO.It is as if muslim dont exist but by there own grit &self reliance .THEN GOVT BECOMES JUST A NUISANCE TO TOLERATE.That tolerance becomes more irritating when it starts blah blah blah blah ANNOYING !!!! LIKE A CROW CROWINGe Asian Age, Monday 30 August 1999 , p.1


"jo kHat main kahte they apni jaan mujhko
aaj kHat likhne main unki jaan jaati hai .....

This thread is to clear up some misconceptions being spread by Rani that muslims were responsible for the declne and physical expulsion from India.

I have always discussed history of India from Mughal empire onwards. It is recorded history that change of Sikhs from a peaceful people to saint soldier was to fight forcible conversions that is part of verifible Sikh history. Sikh gurus also spoke aganist Brahminism and that is why Sikhism believes in equality of all human beings and aganist meaningless rituals. Can u deny that Nadir shah committed two genocides near Panipant called 'Gaalugara' in punjabi and killed 30,000 women and children in one of them...history which congress tried very hard to surpress.

There are verses written by Guru Nanak depicting outrages committed by Barbar towards Hindus..this is all recorded history. Just as i said before Guru Nanak spoke all including Brahmins.

The point is Brahmins are not doing all this now but u continue with your support for senseless destruction and killing anybody who wishes to leave Islam and nonacceptance of other religions.

FYI

**Where was Mr Vajpayee’s ‘civilized sensibilities’ that fateful day - Dec
6, when the world watched in horror as his own party systematically
destroyed the centuries old Babri Mosque?

He now accuses the Taliban leader Mulla Mohammed Omar of religious
bigotry and fundamentalism but where were his own secular ideals on that
day?**

The mosque was build by demolishing a temple but statue was not...it was craved in a mountain. You in turn destroyed more than 100 temple in Pakistan do you think others should destroy 100 masjids.

Muslim are even fighting for Jerusalam 'birth place of Jesus' and calling it their own...i think this was done to convert Christains and try to wipe out their most important religious place. Why can't u build your religious places without destroying other people's or this is scheme to convert people by taking over their religious places. You cannot cry foul when people claim back what was theirs in the first place.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 03, 2001).]

Rani:

[quote]
I have always discussed history of India from Mughal empire onwards
[/quote]

Well, I can only presume you are so selective in your discussing Indian history because you have an axe to grind against muslims only. Why else would you start with the Mughals?

Anyway, you were only too happy to tell me about the Golden Age of India being the Mauriya Dynasty which was well before the Mughals, so your statement isn't even accurate.

You were happy to tell us for the last few days that the muslims wiped out Buddhism in India, so as you are so concerned for the Buddhists, you might as well brush up on your history.

Happy reading.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**

Happy reading.**
[/quote]

pls. go ahead and read something other than propaganda pamphlets and u will know where u stand.

The point is Brahmins are not doing all this now <<<

rani u might want to read the following article. from a indian newspaper today. brahmins are turning women into prostitutes. Taliban is confining them to a certain extent probably too much. Taleban are FAR better than ur master hindutvas in that respect.

hindutva is burning down churches and mosques where people still worship and pissing on guwardawaras as they did in the 84. so do not post false statments. if u need proof of how brahmans and hindutva has produced millions prostitutes and burnt churches mosques and pissed on guwardwaras, please let me know.


The Taliban is a state of mind, ours as much as theirs
For every Mulla Muhammad Omar in Afghanistan, there is a Giriraj Kishore in India

Jyotirmaya Sharma

The pro-Soviet Leftists in the 70s wanted to de-Islamicise Afghanistan. The Afghans resented their atheism. Faith for them was a symbol of personal as well as cultural identity. This gave birth to a religious war or jihad against the Soviets. For the Americans, the mujahideen were not terrorists at that point of time: they were freedom fighters. Communism, nationalism and short-sightedness produced the Taliban.

In India, politics masquerades as religiosity and religion has got politicised. The Taliban and the Sangh Parivar are, at one level, empirical entities. At another level, they are states of mind. Intolerance, destruction, violence and irrationality come as naturally to them as breathing. For every Mulla Muhammad Omar in Afghanistan, there is a corresponding Giriraj Kishore in India. Similarly, for every felling of the Bamiyan Buddha, there is a parallel in the destruction of the Babri Masjid in India. The Buddha looks on, amused.

It is the politics of friend' andfoe' which has brought this about. And nationalism. Exclusivity, fear of complexity and plurality as well. Why get so hysterical over the destruction of a few statues in Afghanistan? Why not get equally charged by the razing to the ground of the Babri Masjid? Because power is an addiction and can only be attained through dividing people, by shedding blood, by vitiating every gentle norm in society.

The Talibanised minds of the self-appointed saviours of the Hindus have no concern for monuments and heritage either. Almost every museum in India is a super-glorified godown; invariably, every monument has been converted into a spitoon and a urinal. Nobody but a handful of idle moralisers are bothered. Heritage is neither mine' northine', it is ours. But we are either oblivious or resentful of the past. This is self-hatred. Why do we hate ourselves? Because we fear complexity and plurality.

It is unethical modernity -- represented by the former Soviets and the present-day Americans -- which has pushed the young men in Afghanistan into a kind of medievalism. Every tyrant, bigot and zealot has a hit-list where culture figures at the very top of this list. For every tyrant carries with him two essential objects: a gun and a pocket calculator. Culture, on the other hand, unsettles. It holds a normative mirror in front of us. Talibanisation has nothing to do with the form of government prevalent in a country. One look at the Shiv Sena activists on Valentine's Day rubbishes all the virtues attributed to democracy.

The Buddha stands smiling at the spectacle of his statues being bombed. An earnest reporter asks for a sound-bite, that supreme form of reductionism. The Buddha obliges. He says: `It is by destroying, stilling, stopping, renouncing and abandoning all imaginings, all supposings, all thoughts ofI am the doer', Mine is the doer', all latentI am', that a Truth-finder is freed with no residuum for rebirth remaining...You would like to possess something that was permanent, stable, eternal, not liable to change, that would stand fast like unto the eternal. But can you see any such possession? Neither can I.''

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by mundyaa:
**

hindutva is burning down churches and mosques where people still worship **

which churches?? And which mosques?? The only example might be a disputed structure in Ayodhya where people did not worship last 40 yrs. due to court order.
**
and pissing on guwardawaras as they did in the 84. **
Please give the source. As far as 84 riots are concerned, hindutwas in fact saved sikhs. give credit to thackrey and rss for that. and the rioters included congressmen some of whom were muslims too.

and u have to distinguish between riots and policy of state. but it is too much to ask for ur peanut sized brain.

The story I have heard from my muslim freinds,is that Allah had comanded Prophet Abraham to build the Kaaba. I understand that Prophet abraham is considered a prophet as much by the Jews and Christians as he is by the Muslims. Could someone please tell me then, what are the reasons that only the muslims are permited to a place of worship which was originally built by a prophet common to three religions.

It says in the Quran that Prophet Abraham used to go to the Pagan temples at night time and smash up all the statues. There are a lot of maulwis out there today, who tell this story in the masjids and also during Islamic programmes on TV. No wonder the new breed are trying to follow in the footsteps of their patriarch.

I find it very difficult to understand that if any person in this world can find peace of mind and spiritual satisfaction either by worshipping a stone or kissing a stone or throwing stones at an imaginary figure, why should it be anybody elses problem?

There is no differance between a Hindu worshiping a Black Stone, called the Shivling and a Muslim kissing the Black Stone of Makka. The only reason they both do this act is because they both get spiritual satisfaction out of it.

Banta Singh:
There is no differance between a Hindu worshiping a Black Stone, called the Shivling and a Muslim kissing the Black Stone of Makka. The only reason they both do this act is because they both get spiritual satisfaction out of it.

I support your thought Banta Singh. Both are worshipping idols in an alternate way. When previous muslim invaders tolerated those buddhist statues and buddhist afghani then why is there so much outcry now over insult to Islam. What about the feeling and emotions of hidden afghani buddhists. Do taliban care about their feelings? Taliban is forcing other non-muslim countries to react against muslims in the same way the way they reacted against statues.

Decline and Fall of Buddhism
by
Dr. K. Jamanadas

The Buddha discarded Varna System

Shudras were made the beasts of burden with all the forced labour duties and no rights. And this occured, as early as, the times of Buddha. Naturally, He revolted against the system of Varnas and that the Buddha discarded varna system of Brahmanism and castes arising out of it, is well known. The Caste System became more strict after the fall of Buddhism. Ferguson observes that Buddhists had no caste and that caste:
“… revived when a second upheaval of local superstition under Aryan influence on the decay of Buddhism brought Shaivism and Vaishnavism to the surface, together with all the monstrosities of the modern Hindu pantheon.” [Fergusson: 1971: 63]

How Occupations became castes

Brahmanism ammmended their laws through Kalivarjya, hostilities against Buddhists were started, a religious crusade started through physical force by Rajputs created by Brahmins, Philosophical propaganda arranged by Kumarila and Shankara, Buddha was given a place in avataras as a stategy, Vaishnava Alvaras and Shaiva Nayanaras started “bhajan parties” and started “singing out Buddhism”, Puranas were edited and re-edited to incorporate new revival of Brahmanism, and myths created to capture the Buddhist places of worship and to retain the usurped ones. That the “kalivarj” is the method of Brahmins to tackle with the Buddhist influence over the masses and impose their own supremacy. They changed their laws without actually condemning them. All laws and rules, were amended including Civil, Criminal, Revenue and personal laws. Dr. P.V.Kane has enumerated 55 such changes. [Kane: 1965: II.994] These can be placed in three groups, and are discussed by us elsewhere. [K.Jamanadas:1991:131]

Kings had no legislative powers

Brahmanism is not limited to Brahmins alone. It has a vast canvas and it is seen in all spheres of human activity but more prominent in political sphere. The politics of this country is run on the Manu’s constitution since centuries. It is important to understand that the kings and emperors of ancient and medieval India did not have any legislative powers. They were only executives of the so called divine laws made by the priestly class. The wars they fought were for defending the laws of the “Dharmasastras” codified by Manu and others, on the advise, rather orders, of their “purohits”. As a matter of fact, they had an obligation to enforce the code of conduct as dictated by the Brahmins. That is why we find that King Rama had to kill Shambuka, who was transgressing the Law of Chaturvarnya. At the most, the king could only legislate on revenue matters, that too, as per the rules already laid down by the Brahmins. He had some judicial powers, but that too, he could not pass judgment against the law given by the Brahmins. It may be interesting to know that some scholars now claim Shambuka belonged to “Teli” community.
Who suffered in Kalivarjya
In Kalivarjya, one of the main laws was against sea voyage. That is how the sea worthy races of Pallava and Chola countries suffered. All the trade that was being conducted through the sea stopped. Who suffered? Not the Brahmins, surely. The first group that suffered was that of ship builders, mostly the working class dealing with metal and wood, i.e. the carpenters and black smiths. All produers of exportable goods suffered most. It will be clear, if we take a look at the products of export that most of the products of export were based on the agriculture, horticulture, animal husbandry and forest economy. Even the textile industry which had reached a high acclaim in foreign lands, was based on cotton, silk and wool. All these occupations were in the hands of working classes, who were all doomed to be shudras. All these industries suffered. All these castes in the village economy suffered. All these groups, which were prosperous during the Buddhist rule, were degraded into castes, due to imposition of rigid caste rules. Details are given in Chapter on Science.
The mobility of the professions was stopped. Telis, who extracted oil from oil seeds, Malis, who grew vegitables, the Dhangars, who reared the goats and lambs, Sutars, who made and repaired the farmers implements, Kumhar, those who supplied earthen pots to villagers and Mahars and Mangs who protected the villages from strangers. All these professions became hereditary and social intercourse among them stopped. All these people who belonged to the same stock, as proved by Dr. Ambedkar, started observing endogamy, stopped intermarrying and became victims of “Sanskritization”, i.e. the process of claiming higher status in caste heiararchy than to discard the system of castes. The purpose of imposing Kalivarjya was not only to suppress Buddhism, but also stop the economic growth of OBCs, which is not properly realised. Brahmins knew the latter would imitate them, as originally, kalivarjya was technically meant for Brahmins.

**" The great historic fact in connection with the Nagas Mongoloids ], which stands prominently forward in Hindu myths, is the fierce persecution which they suffered at the hands of the Brahmans. The destruction of serpents at the burning of the forest of Khandava, the terrible sacrifice of the serpents which forms one of the opening scenes of the Mahabharata, and the supernatural exploits of the youthful Krishna against the serpents sent to destroy him, are all expressions of Brahmanical hatred towards the Nagas. Ultimately this antagonism merged into that deadly conflict between the Brahman and the Buddhist, which after a lengthened period of religious warfare terminated in the triumph of the Brahman." **

India of the Vedic Age with Reference to the Mahabharata’, Vol. I of `The History of India’, J. Talboys Wheeler, 1973 reprint Cosmo Publns. Delhi 1973, p.147]

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited March 03, 2001).]

xtreme, given ur relentless pursuit of relvence of other's posts to the thread, could u please explain how ur own post above relates to the topic in question. i see nothing in it telling about decline of buddhism in india and its reasons.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**Rani:

Well, I can only presume you are so selective in your discussing Indian history because you have an axe to grind against muslims only. Why else would you start with the Mughals?

Why it is selective...Sikh history starts with Mughals...why don't u discuss history of Jerusalam and breaking of idols in your holy land.

Anyway, you were only too happy to tell me about the Golden Age of India being the Mauriya Dynasty which was well before the Mughals, so your statement isn't even accurate.

This was said in a context to refute your and other muslims claims that world was living in dark ages before Islam. There were great civilization before Islam which is very hard for u to swallow because it negates your claim that Islam is the only true religion.

You were happy to tell us for the last few days that the muslims wiped out Buddhism in India, so as you are so concerned for the Buddhists, you might as well brush up on your history.

I am sure Buddism's very passive and non voilent philosphy weakened the fighting spirit of the people and they succumbed to Islam very quickly, maybe it was a good thing that some of them turned back to hinduism..Afganistan is a good example.

Happy reading.

ZZ, has already answered that....

P.S. BTW, it seems that u couldn't answer my other assertions :).

There are verses written by Guru Nanak depicting outrages committed by Barbar towards Hindus<<

and muslims also. Read the shabads in Babar-bani again, Nanak mentions how hindu and muslim women were dishonored and saddened by the loss.
In fact Babar was invited by sultan Lodhi to the eastren Punjab and eventually was beaten and called gadhaar by Babar by saying that "these people(muslims rulers of Punjab) are not loyal to their own kingdom how would they be loyal to my army". I find it very intersting.