Investigation : Did Muslims drive Buddhists out of India ??

" that some of them turned back to hinduism..Afganistan is a good
example."

Rani you are self confessed IGNORENT as per last few posts,"sikhism came after Moghul so i know only after that"But we cant limit our knowledge to 1500 yrs of Islam We trace muslim history from Adam & eve & all the prophets starting from IBRAHIM distorted anglican call Abraham.

You dont even know which came FIRST Hinduism or Buddhism.??Buddhism is the FIRST religion predates Abrahmic& HINDUISM is so called loosely connected rituals borrowed from just abut every culture -is Hinduism.Thats why there is no definition of hindu.If geographical definition is followed we are all hindu east of river indus or hind name given by Arabs much later.

Coming back ,Buddhist couldnt have gone <<< B A C K to hinduism because before buddhism there was NO hindu ,Hinduism was imposed on buddhist for whatever reason you want to believe in.So your contention that REVERTING <back to hinduism was a better alternative, is WRONG chronologically .However if you would put it in metaphor it can be called"from frying pan to fire ".Afghan made the right descion to make leap of faith from the OLDEST to the latest!


barque(bijli) yoon akadti hai apne karname pe ke
jaise phir naya hum aashiyaan bana nahi sakte

[This message has been edited by Azad Munna (edited March 03, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Azad Munna (edited March 03, 2001).]

Another thing I would like to know is, what about the statues of their Muslim hero SADAM HUSSAIN in all over Iraq?

Are the Taliban going to destroy his statues as well or are they going to let the people of Iraq carry on saluting those statues?

[quote]
Originally posted by Banta Singh:
**Another thing I would like to know is, what about the statues of their Muslim hero SADAM HUSSAIN in all over Iraq?

Are the Taliban going to destroy his statues as well or are they going to let the people of Iraq carry on saluting those statues?**
[/quote]

Banta ,you want a joke?

First Taleban doesnt owe a reason explanation or justification to you or anyone.Its in Afghanistan,When Indians removed ALL british statues in Calcutta & mumai you did not listen nor gave reason nor stopped to think b/c it was within your state.Lets keep it simple ,India removed any sign of Clive Bentinck,Wellington,Corn Wallis ,wasn't she given that right.So just b/c Taleban are hated Islamic ,ALL THE FUSS!And what is this moron Advani & vajpayee talking about BUYING.You know if there is no price set for sale or marketing do you think like india everything is for sale from women to Certificates of computer tech lining up for h1 visa??????
Stiuck tro jokes Bunta ,i know tons of them


: :)

When was i for real?
I am myself a dream :)
I always see you
watching me tenderly :)

Banta ,you want a joke?

First Taleban doesnt owe a reason explanation or justification to you or anyone.Its in Afghanistan,When Indians removed ALL british statues in Calcutta & mumai you did not listen nor gave reason nor stopped to think b/c it was within your state.Lets keep it simple ,India removed any sign of Clive Bentinck,Wellington,Corn Wallis ,wasn’t she given that right.So just b/c Taleban are hated Islamic ,ALL THE FUSS!And what is this moron Advani & vajpayee talking about BUYING.You know if there is no price set for sale or marketing do you think like india everything is for sale from women to Certificates of computer tech lining up for h1 visa???
Stick to jokes Bunta ,i know tons of them


:

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

When was i for real?
I am myself a dream

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I always see you
watching me tenderly :slight_smile:

[This message has been edited by sanam (edited March 03, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by sanam:
** Banta ,you want a joke?

First Taleban doesnt owe a reason explanation or justification to you or anyone.Its in Afghanistan,When Indians removed ALL british statues in Calcutta & mumai you did not listen nor gave reason nor stopped to think b/c it was within your state.Lets keep it simple ,India removed any sign of Clive Bentinck,Wellington,Corn Wallis ,wasn't she given that right.

**
[/quote]

these statues are preserved, not destroyed. You can see them in museums. such comparison is only stupid.

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:

Why it is selective...Sikh history starts with Mughals...why don't u discuss history of Jerusalam and breaking of idols in your holy land.

Happy to. Unlike you, I am not selective in discussing any topic. This topic is about decline of Buddhism, which you initiated. Now let's discuss it.

*There were great civilization before Islam which is very hard for u to swallow because it negates your claim that Islam is the only true religion. *

I don't remember saying there were no great civilisations before islam. Can you quote me on that? I doubt it.

I am sure Buddism's very passive and non voilent philosphy weakened the fighting spirit of the people and they succumbed to Islam very quickly, maybe it was a good thing that some of them turned back to hinduism..Afganistan is a good example.

Are you saying there was something wrong with Buddhism's passive and non-violent philosophy? And you think it was a good thing that they turned back to caste-ridden Hinduism? This is strange coming from a sikhni whose own people rejected Hinduism because of it's women and caste discrimination.

P.S. BTW, it seems that u couldn't answer my other assertions :).

and what were they ??

[/quote]

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited March 04, 2001).]

Chapter 9
Decline and Fall of Buddhism
by
Dr. K. Jamanadas

Why Kulinism?

It must be remembered that all these sufferings were caused by the Brahmins to their own kith and kin, their own women folk, with only one intention, that is to keep the supremacy of their own caste, which was in danger due to Buddhist ideals in the society during the Buddhist kings' rule. To understand the background of this system we have to go into the History of Bengal and its people. The following information is drawn mostly from Sarita Mukta Reprints vol. 9, p.117 ff. article by Vasant Chatterji - "bangal ke bangali kaun?" sarita July 1968 (II), 262 Vasant Chatterji very aptly remarks:

"Bengal, which now remains as only west Bengal, is a different from other states of India. It is different in many respects like history, casteism, religion, politics, education. What applies to rest of India about social and economic matters does not apply to Bengal. It has got its own separate situation."

Chatterji laments that the knowledge about Bengal is also limited. The popular ideas that Bengalis are "bhuka bangali" or they are "communists" are both wrong ideas. He feels, rather sarcastically, that those who can be called real Bengalis are hardly 30 to 40 lakhs in a total population of about 3.5 crores. As mentioned above, Tagore has disposed off 85% population in one line by calling them as non-Aryans and hence of no importance. According to Chatterjee, the majority of population consists of following groups:

*Original inhabitants *

  1. Old 'mul nivasi' of Austrasiai or Austric origin, which go by the name of 'Kol' (Kolerian). They live in water logged areas and are experts in navigation and cultivation of rice and are brave and able to tolerate hardships. Bengal was outside 'aryavrat' for about thousand years. The aryas going there used to be declared 'condemned' and 'depressed' (bhrashta and patit), and were excommunicated. During those centuries, Mongoloid migration occurred. They all intermixed with original inhabitants, were called as 'kirat' and 'monkhemr' etc., and ruled the country as a powerful non-aryan state for many dynasties. Presumably, he is referring to kingdoms from the times of Lord Buddha, till the arrival of Brahminical culture to Bengal in the times of Samudragupta - a Buddhist period of history. In fourth century, Bengal became part of a so called 'hindu' empire. The original inhabitants were now called 'kaivart'. It was an old tradition of Aryas to call any non aryan living near sea or river as 'daasha' or 'daasa' (mallaaha). It appears to be more of an abuse, as can be verified from Manu, who does not consider very highly of them. This is the main caste of Bengal, and has majority population in villages. They are divided into two sub-castes - 'mazi kaivarta', who catch fish or ply boats and 'haali kaivarta', who do farming. A few families from them got some titles and got rich due to some political service rendered by them at some time in the history, and some were kings, sardars and jagirdars. Some of them were, due to their power or prosperity, 'elevated' by the Brahmin priests to the 'honourable title' of 'nama shudra', meaning, 'shudra for name sake', and given lowest position in hindu society, or nearly made untouchables. In 1943 famine about 30 lakh people who died were mostly from these castes. Nobel laureate Amartya Sen, as is well known, talks of this famine, which was subject of his study.

Muslims

  1. Second group is of Muslims. These were also of ancient 'kaivarta' castes. Upto ninth tenth century, here flourished the Buddhist kingdom of Palas. The ancestors of these muslims were Buddhists.*** But since middle of eleventh century, since Brahmin rule of Sena kings started, there was a period of tremendous atrocities committed against them for about a hundred years. As a result, when Muslims came, these people welcomed them whole heartedly and in a short time, all of them became Muslims. We all know that some brahmanical leaders like Veer Sawarkar, have blamed Buddhists for embracing Islam during this period.*** This resulted ultimately in creation of East Pakistan, and now Bangala Desh. Even today Muslims in Bengal are called "Nede", meaning 'bald' because their forefathers were tonsured as Buddhists and were known as "Nede". Sen dynasty was the first and the last Hindu kingdom, which fell to Bakhtiyar Khilaji, who had a cavalry of only 12 horsemen. How this happened could be the subject matter of another article. Muslims in Bengal are treated as untouchables. Their condition became worse after Britishers came, because, originally they were dalits, and deprived of education.

Wangals

  1. Third group is of Wangals, a name for all people of East Bengal. The separation of East Bengal from rest of Bengal is not because of Muslims, not because of partition of Bengal in 1905, and not because of Indo Pak partition of Bengal in 1947. The credit (?) goes to a valiant Hindu king Ballalsen, who was father of last flee away king Laxmansen.
    Reestablishing Brahmin Supremacy
    This king Ballalsen, was a learned person. After the fall of Buddhist kingdom of Palas, with an aim of establishing a Brahmin religion from a fresh start, Ballalasen took many new steps including oppression of Buddhists. He divided the country into four areas, with the purpose of establishing kulin system. These areas were

  2. "Radha" i.e. western area, the present Vardhaman Division,

  3. "Varendra" - Northern area,

  4. "Vagadi" - forest lands around the sea in south, and

  5. "Vangal" - Eastern Bengal.
    The Brahmins in these areas are called Radhi, Varendra, Vangal etc.

Chatterji observes:
"It was the work of the same king, who created four types of Bengalis in Bengal. For this purpose, he did the same thing as every other Hindu king used to do after winning a new territory, to keep his own caste 'pure' or make it so. That is, he called from some famous Brahmin centres like Mithila, Kashi, Prayag or Kanauj a few Brahmin families and settled them in his kingdom, similar to the bull-studs of "Shiva", left by today's pious Hindu devotees to impregnate the cows. So that these people should do their 'work' properly and not interfere in one another's area of interest, he divided the country into four areas as above and settled in each one of them one batch of these 'pure' Brahmins, and relegated the work of increasing the population of 'Arya vamsha' in the three Hindu castes (perhaps meaning - Brahmin, Baidyas and Kayasthas ?). These people had been doing this work for about eight hundred years without any hindrance."
The famous Varendra families are Sanyal, Bagchi, Ghoshal, Mohotra etc. Among Radhis, five families are famous. They call themselves Kanyakubja, i.e. from Kanauj and are called after titles given by the Sena kings, as Upadhyaya Acharya etc. These names are now corrupted to Chatterji, Mukherji, Banarji, Ganguli and Bhattachari due to English pronunciation in British times.
Chaterji avers:
"As mentioned above, from the time of Sena rule, till the middle of 19th century, the main function of all these Brahmins have been to marry hundreds of girls and raise the progeny according to Manu Smruti. Ballalsen meant only this by 'kulin' system."
As is well known, to curb the Buddhist practice of becoming a bhikkhu and renounce the worldly affairs in young age, it is enjoined by the Brahmanic sastras that out of four ashramas, the grahasta ashram is the most important, and here one has to repay the four debts. One of them is to have a progeny, when man becomes free from the father's debt. But this Kulin system was quite different from method of repaying the 'father's debt'.
Child's caste was decided by the mother's caste.
But some times, the progeny of so called low caste Brahmins also could get high caste because of wealth. Many Kayasthas became rich and adored themselves with 'yadnopavita' and became the 'dwijas' calling themselves as Kshatriyas. That way, the place of Kayasthas in Bengal's varna system is among the Shudras, as Chaterji says.
These hundreds of wives of Brahmins used to reside with their parents. Their husbands used to wander from place to place doing bhajan etc. and visit them may be once or twice a year. This was enough for procreation and propagation of race. Thus within a few generations, a vast corps of Brahmin progeny was created, which became the main support of Brahmin religion and became quite distinct from the original inhabitants of Bengal.
During Muslim rule, second work of these people was to prevent the widow remarriage and implement the 'sati' system rigorously. In north India, sati was limited to only royal families, but in Bengal, these Brahmins got it implemented cruelly. The reason was obvious. This strictness was necessary for the safety of husbands, as each of them had hundreds of wives. With the ban on widow remarriage and practice of sati, no dissatisfied wife could dare to poison the husband. No widow could save her property from the clutches of the Brahmins, because only Brahmin could condone the performance of sati. This condonation used to cost a lot.
Kayasthas always learnt language of the rulers. In Muslim rule they learnt their language, and became parts of state machinery. They earned so much money, that though in the eyes of Brahmins they were sudras, still they could employ Brahmins as their servants for worship etc. The Baidyas also followed Kayashthas and Brahmins. But the fact remains, which is well known that, in the brahmanic books of middle ages, a lot of abuse is showered over kayasthas as well as on baidyas.

PRAFUL BIDWAI

LESS than two months after Vishwa Hindu Parishad secretary B. L. Sharma 'Prem' launched his infamous tirade against Christians, rationalising the rape of four nuns in Madhya Pradesh as the expression of the "anger of patriotic Hindu youth against anti-national forces", and barely two weeks after Murli Manohar Joshi tried to impose a blatantly communal agenda upon school education in the name of "Indianisation", comes Union Home Minister L. K. Advani's attempt to "Hinduise" Buddhism by denying that it has an independent identity of its own. The three discrete interventions are closely inter-related and form the Sangh Parivar's three-pronged strategy: to assimilate forcibly non-Hindu religions into a Hindutva mould, deny and suppress minority rights guaranteed by the Constitution, and launch a virulent attack on religious minorities in order to create new insecurities.

Advani delivered himself of some newfangled wisdom on November 6 at Sarnath, while addressing an "international" seminar on "World Unity in the Buddha's Trinity" as part of the Buddha Mahotsav organised by Union Tourism Minister Madan Lal Khurana, and much publicised in the media in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. The Buddha, he declared, "did not announce any new religion. He was only restating with a new emphasis the ancient ideals of the Indo-Aryan civilisation." According to The Telegraph (November 7), "Advani said (the) Buddha derived his teachings from the Bhagvad Gita and was an avatar of Vishnu."
This, predictably, drew a volley of protests from the handful of Buddhist scholars from outside India present at this supposedly "international seminar" largely conducted in Hindi. Said Rewata Dhamma, a Burmese Buddhist scholar from England: "Buddhism may have started in India, but it is a completely different religion from Hinduism. We are not happy that the entire seminar is more on how Buddhism is a part of Hinduism." Other monks from Tibet and South-East Asia too expressed their anger at this blatant attempt to trivialise and subordinate Buddhism into a minor variant and derivation of Sanatanist Hinduism.

**Advani's assertion is based at best on ignorance and at worst on pure fantasy. As the work of any worthy historian of ancient India, from D.D. Kosambi to Romila Thapar to Suvira Jaiswal, testifies, Buddhism arose as a distinct faith, in revolt against hierarchical Hinduism, and it drew adherents from those very layers of Indian society which lay at the oppressed and underprivileged bottom of the hierarchy. Despotic state power persecuted Buddhists for centuries as brahmanical Hinduism held sway in large parts of India. Buddhism was all but banished from this land and found refuge in Sri Lanka, Tibet, Myanmar, Thailand and eastwards. It is only in the 20th century, with Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's deeksha, that it returned in a significant way to India. **

The fact that the Buddha was sought to be assimilated into the Hindu pantheon for largely ideological, power-related reasons does not alter this history and must not be allowed to obliterate the truth that Buddhists and Jains, as well as "low-caste" Hindus, Dalits and our indigenous people were systematically persecuted and discriminated against by hierarchical Hinduism. Indeed, it is impossible to comprehend the birth of the Bhakti movement without acknowledging the profoundly intolerant character of caste-ridden, bigoted Hinduism in the medieval period.
So much for Advani's wisdom. But Advani is not alone in holding such views. These are part of the core ideas of the RSS and its affiliates, traceable all the way to Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (in a 1923 tract on Hindutva), to Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar and to such varied contemporary representatives of the Parivar as Sarsanghchalak Rajendra Singh, RSS Number Two K.C. Sudarshan, Murli Manohar Joshi, BJP vice-president J.P. Mathur and VHP general secretary Giriraj Kishore.

It is an article of faith with the RSS-BJP that India's religious minorities do not have a legitimate, independent identity. The BJP's election manifesto (1998) is unambiguous: "The BJP is committed to the concept of One Nation, One People and One Culture... Our nationalist vision is not merely bound by the geographical or political identity of Bharat but it is referred by our timeless cultural heritage. This cultural heritage which is central to all regions, religions and languages, is a civilisational identity and constitutes the cultural nationalism of India which is the core of Hindutva." For the BJP, "Shri Ram lies at the core of Indian consciousness."

For the Sangh Parivar, Muslims, Christians and Sikhs have an identity only as some kind of sub-set of Hindus. As Joshi put it: "Hindu Rashtra" is "the basic culture of this country. I say that all Indian Muslims are Mohammadiya Hindus; all Indian Christians are Christi Hindus. They are Hindus who have adopted Christianity and Islam as their religion." According to Sudarshan: "If Muslims have to stay in India, they will have to submit to the Indianisation of their religion. It is time they thought of preserving only the essential 10 per cent and did away with the other 90 per cent of their religion incorporating in its stead elements of Indian culture."

Such assimilationist arrogance does not signify tolerance. It is fully compatible with violent attacks on religious minorities, so much in evidence today, especially in BJP-ruled Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan. In Gujarat alone, there have been 35 well-recorded incidents of harassment, ranging from vandalisation of church-run schools to exhumation of bodies from cemeteries, from stoning of mission-owned vehicles to attacks on chapels, from burning of the Bible to the razing of a church under construction.

A September report of the National Commission on Minorities confirms this. It says that these attacks violate fundamental rights as well as Sections 295 and 298 of the Indian Penal Code. In Rajasthan, the People's Union for Civil Liberties has reported several incidents to the National Human Rights Commission. Hindutva activists are now targeting Christians in Karnataka too. They recently intruded into schools and forcibly put vermilion on the foreheads of girls. Common to all such incidents is the complicity of the police and other authorities, and malicious prejudice and ignorance: imagine the Gujarat Chief Minister rationalising that what was burnt was not the Bible, but only the New Testament!

The deepest prejudice perhaps lies in some commonly held assumptions about Christianity and Islam. Three of these are important. Christianity and Islam are "imports", basically "alien" to India; the principal activity of some of their adherents in India, especially Christian missionaries, has been to convert people; and such conversion is illegal, at least not quite constitutional. It is precisely because most BJP leaders believe this that they moved an anti-conversion Bill 20 years ago during the rule of the Janata Party Government. (They ultimately had to withdraw it in the face of massive protests.)
All three assumptions are wrong. Christianity is older in India than in Europe. It was adapted, modified and refined from the 1st century onwards by Indians, especially in Kerala. Indian Christianity predates today's Hinduism - that is, caste-bound brahmanical Hinduism - by 700 to 900 years. It would be as absurd to consider Christianity unIndian as to dub Japanese Buddhism "alien" to Japan because it originated in India. Indians continued to adapt Christianity even in its later, colonial, Protestant, form. For instance, the Khasis of Meghalaya are all Christians, but they have reconciled the all-male Holy Trinity with their own matriarchal social structure.

Similarly, Islam in India is much older than Islam in such "Muslim" societies as Indonesia and Malaysia, and perhaps parts of western Africa and Central Asia. To make another comparison, Indian Islam is far older than Protestantism in Europe, which no one in their senses would dare say is "alien" to Europe. Islam too has been adapted, changed and transformed in this country. Sufism is only one of the many versions of Islam in the northern and northwestern parts of India. There are many other variants, from Kerala to West Bengal, and from Maharashtra to Kashmir.

Secondly, the Church in India has been active in areas such as education, health and the rights of the tribal people. Religious instruction, leave alone conversion, has only been a minor part of its activity. There is little point in belittling the Church's contribution. It runs schools and colleges which provide good-quality, near-free education to millions and operates numerous non-commercial hospitals and health institutions.

Again, it would be churlish to underrate the ferment and the growing craving for social reform within the Muslim community in India. It has been going through a process of secularisation and deep introspection in recent years. There is a major change in the relationship between Muslim voters and religious and political leaders. Today's Muslim typically votes in a solidly secular way. The spontaneous agitation against "triple talaq", initiatives for education for Muslim girls, campaigns to improve dietary habits, and the rejection of reservation for Muslims qua Muslims, are so many signs of this positive change.

Thirdly, it is simply wrong to argue that conversion is illegal or unconstitutional. Article 25 of the Constitution guarantees "the freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion." The Supreme Court has repeatedly clarified that the freedom to "propagate" means the right to communicate religious beliefs, expound the tenets of one's religion, and hence to convert. It is hard to argue that missionaries today use coercive methods, as they did in, say, Goa under early Portuguese rule. Forced conversion is by and large a rarity.

Everyone has a right to hold religious beliefs and seek to convert others to their own beliefs. The Constitution also guarantees special rights to religious minorities under Articles 26 to 30. These are not favours or acts of appeasement. They are essential to ensure that a numerical majority does not ride roughshod over other groups and that minorities can preserve their beliefs, institutions and practices without feeling threatened.

The Sangh Parivar is trying to terrorise the religious minorities. Its threat is directed at the minorities within the majority too, at those who do not practise the sanatana dharma that Hindutva advocates. This is a menace to India's pluralism, surely one of its greatest assets.** All this is being done while the Sangh Parivar sings the praise of Hindu "tolerance". It has been clear how false such claims are and how nasty and brutish the claimants can be - as in riot after communal riot, and against Sahmat's exhibition and M.F. Husain's paintings. The truth is that Hinduism in its hierarchical avatar has never been tolerant. How could it be when it sought to segregate society along caste lines by specifying barbaric punishments (pouring lead into the ears of shudras who dare to hear the Vedas being recited)? **Polytheism may have helped Hindus accommodate to other faiths, but it did not make them tolerant. The Sangh Parivar must not be allowed to spread its communal poison. What it is doing is unconstitutional, illegal, socially disruptive and politically dangerous. The time has come to restrain the VHP and the Bajrang Dal - if necessary by banning certain of their activities. We cannot allow people to be brutalised at the altar of communal prejudice.

  • Praful Bidwai, a former Senior Editor with "The Times of India," is a researcher and columnist with more than 20 publications. He has just co-authored (with Achin Vanaik) "New Nukes: India, Pakistan and Global Nuclear Disarmament" (Interlink Books, Northampton, Mass. USA)*