introspection and root causes

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

Introspection is great. We all know by now that indulging in self appraisal based on how others percieve you for crimes that arent exactly your own is definitely the way to go. Muslims in general dont do introspection, simply because they’re stupid, ineffective and indulge in blame displacement.

The Muslim on the street doesnt stop and think about a potential newspaper or radio host on the other side of the planet that thinks he is going to blow himself up once he stops bowing before bin laden. No, by and large he doesnt participate in protest rallies that call for reform in Islam in order to correct the negative perception the world (confined largely between the Atlantic and the Pacific ocean) has of him.

But we all know that introspection is great. It is the only way of correcting perceptions that might be based on unacceptably gross generalisations. No, you must live according to how others percieve you, even if they’re short sighted and myopic.

2

But those who allege that we do not do enough debate and discussion and protest to correct how they see us, it must be admitted though that they do follow the same principle themselves.

Case in point last year’s European Union poll of european residents regarding who they thought was the biggest threat to the world. Number one on the list Israel, number two America. Muslims would’ve quibbled. But these gems, they take it like they dish out. Sure, maybe there were times when the europeans were termed as cheese eating surrender monkeys, all in good fun. Maybe some crates of wine were spilled in the streets in protest but those were crazy times. Sure the Israeli embassy issued statements of protest to the EU and hurled the holocaust back at them.. but thats just the appetizer. The real deal, the introspection cometh. Well.. maybe not.. but they’re frikkin cheese eaters :-/.

Then ofcourse there was the time when the Pew Research Group found that the majority of the world except Israel and Greece (?) had plunging levels of American popularity. Being the honest, introspective lads they are, you wouldnt expect them to blame things on propaganda machines bent on casting America in a bad light. Thats what Muslims do. Turns out thats what the American President said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/98525_poll05.shtml

:-/.

Guess theres blame displacement elsewhere too eh?

3

and lets settle this for once. Muslims do not 'hate your freedoms'. We do not give a feck about what you do in your spare time, or whatever you are free to do or not do. It would be great if you could reciprocate.

4

The US was taken to the international court of human rights by nicaragua for sending in assasination squads under Raegan to hit 'soft targets' (innocents). The court labelled this as a terrorist act, the only country to be assigned this honour. The US people remained silent, introspect on that.

Turkey, France, Germany's populations were against the invasion of Iraq, the governments agreed with it's people (democracy) the US condemned these nations in the vilest of terms, the US hates democracy. The US people remained silent, introspect on that.

The Algerians voted in a democratically elected Islamic governmet, the US sponsored the generals of Algeria to overthrow the governement and appointed a dictatorship. The US people remained silent, introspect on that.

The Isrealis broke and break countless UN resolutions and spurn global condemnation, the US uses it veto constantly in the defence of Isreali agression against the palestinians. The US people remained silent, introspect on that.

etc etc etc etc

5

A good thread. Something that needs to be discussed. I personally feel people who arent at all involved in an issue shouldnt have to defend themselves at all. I mean why does a muslim shop keeper in Brazil have to do with a Terrorist bombing in Israel?

So what we share the same religion. I could show you links and pictures and news items from the the 1930s about the links of the Christain religion and the Nazis. There was a very strong link. But does that mean that all christains are nazis? Should there be introspection on the part of the average christain? Of course not. Because they are not responsible.

The people are responsible for any action should be introspective. Not the innocent people that have nothing to do with it.

6

A Muslim shopkeeper in Brazil has the same to do with terrorism, as a Russian school child has to do with occupation. Absolutely nothing. These are actions and reactions no doubt, but they are still wrong. Just as killing a Muslim civilian in retaliation for something is wrong, killing a Russian civilian in retaliation for something else is also wrong. We have to get away from the mentality of revenge and that violence solves all, when it’s clearly not solving anything for either side of the conflict.

7

Totally agree and the Russian army going into Chechnya and killing innocents children is also wrong,

"We have to get away from the mentality of revenge and that violence solves all"

lets see what the Russian military do next.

8

Thank you sadiqaan. As there is no relation, the average innocent muslim has no need to introspect. A thread of 90 plus posts and you are the first one to answer the question in a seperate thread. Now be a good chap and please explain that to others.

9

Here is why a Muslim shopkeeper in Brazil needs to "introspect." I say this based on my residence in Europe and USA over the years. The same shopkeeper who "goes about his life" routinely contributes to "charities" espousing the cause of "oppressed Muslims" all around the world. We now know that some of that money ends up funding those who strap bombs with bolts around their belts and blow up babies to "prove their point."

In the mid 1990s I used to frequent a "Indo-Pak" grocery store and kabab joint. The owner was a nice guy but until you bring up Kashmir or Bosnia and he would proudly admit sending $$ to the mujahideen. This was in the pre-9/11 days so no problems with the government.

It is your average Muslim merchant and those like him who fund the various jehadi causes around the world. It is they who make up excuses like "They are not true Muslims" when their "mujahideen" end up butchering babies.

It is they, therefore who need to introspect.

I tell you, the longer Muslims worldwide enjoy the comforts and freedoms in USA or Brazil but tacitly condone atrocities, the shorter Huntigdon's prediction will take to happen. I say this with a sense of sorrow more than anything.

10

if you are miser and dont want to support the muslims through your money its fine, but dont say that people who support other muslims through money are somehow bad. you can go donate blood to american troops or even join the american army or better yet, join the israeli army and kill muslims, you seem to hate them already, it will come natural.

11

Thandy, Talwar is known to weigh in and act at the behest of whatever is up him to portray the freedom fight in kashmir as negatively as possible.

Yes, some of what goes on in Kashmir should not happen. But by and large the fight in kashmir is directed at gaining independence from India, and that is a cause well worth fighting for.

We condemn any act of brutality that those whom we support commit. But there is a difference between supporting the honorable fight (which we and the Muslim shopkeeper support) and laying down the struggle completely because of some miscreants who allowed the media to blacken their cause.

We do not support terrorism against innocents. We support the right of independence of Kashmiris. Make no mistake though.. the second statement does NOT invalidate the first.

12

I did not specifically point to Kashmir but used it as part of a general trend.

Imagine the statement of a Nazi sympathizer in the 1940s :

Yes, some of the killings of Jews by our forces should not happen. But by and large the struggle against the Jews is directed at gaining independence for Germans from the economic clutches of the Jewish cabal, and that is a cause well worth fighting for

When you financially support a cause, you are automatically associated with ALL of it. You cannot say “I support the Lashkar-e-Taiba or when they kill soldiers, not when they (routinely) kill innocents.” You support a group - you are that much responsible for EVERYTHING they do.

If a murderer comes to your house and you let him hide from the Cops, can you say “Well I supported him when he was hiding in my house, but not when he was committing murder” :rolleyes:

We are not talking about some miscreants. These groups routinely TAKE CREDIT for killing innocents and in other cases have clear links to the actions and only issue bland denials after they get bad PR.

When the people you support regularly do atrocities, it is natural for decent folks around the world to ask you to explain your support, isn’t it?

13

They do not 'routinely' take credit for it, unless you talk about a very specific 'they'.

[quote]

Imagine the statement of a Nazi sympathizer in the 1940s :

Yes, some of the killings of Jews by our forces should not happen. But by and large the struggle against the Jews is directed at gaining independence for Germans from the economic clutches of the Jewish cabal, and that is a cause well worth fighting for

[/quote]

The killing of jews was wrong. period. gaining independence from the economic clutches of a jewish cabal may or may not have mandated support.

Likewise, nobody is defending funnelling money into the coffers of groups that are known to 'routinely' kill innocents and admit doing it. Groups on the other hand that do fight against Indian repression do nothing wrong.

Your analogies just dont work. And I suspect youre resorting to analogies simply because you have nothing of substance to contribute.

Gandhi was associated with violence during the 1940s because some of his supporters got violent. He condemned the violence, but maintained that the fight was justified. Should the backers of the movement have dropped support for the cause because a few involved went astray?

Gandhi wasnt a terrorist, and neither are freedom fighters in kashmir terrorists. The terrorists in kashmir are criminals and do not represent the totality of those beleiving and fighting for independence.

14

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
We do not support terrorism against innocents. We support the right of independence of Kashmiris. Make no mistake though.. the second statement does NOT invalidate the first.
[/QUOTE]

Wow, Pakistan is concerned about the freedom of Kashmiris. Why does not Pakistan grant freedom to the part of Kashmir they have (Azad Kashmir + Northern areas). Why have a army man rule Azad Kashmir, when did you last have elections in that part of Kashmir. I think Pakistan who bleeds and feels so much for the Kashmiris, should grant freedom to that part of Kashmir and set an example for India.

Regarding root causes elsewhere, it is simple, muslims do no want to live as a minority in any country. The feel for rights of Checens, Palestines and Kashmiris, while have no concerns for right of muslims living under muslim countries who have even less rights than the above group. Regarding feeling 'oppressed' by non-muslims, I do not find the same rights for non-muslims in islamic countries. When has a Christian, Hindu or Sikh started shooting Saudis because they cannot have a place of worship in Saudi Arabia. All muslims do is point fingers to others because they cannot accept the rot in their societies.

15

Re: introspection and root causes

you are right this article says the same thing

Not only are “self-reflection” and “objective research” alien concepts, there is no need to analyze causes and effects since both are by definition already known. The causes are always the diabolical forces of Jews and Christian crusaders, a central dogma even among Arabs and Muslims who have not yet joined the queue to blow up some Iraqi police station for al Qaeda. The effects are always the sufferings of the Arab nation and the ummah, the global Islamic community. Infidels, in pact with the devil, have hoodwinked and deceived the ummah, depriving it of its God-given right to rule supreme over the world.
http://www.americanoutlook.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=3440&pubtype=DailyArticles

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

I did not specifically point to Kashmir but used it as part of a general trend.

Imagine the statement of a Nazi sympathizer in the 1940s :

Yes, some of the killings of Jews by our forces should not happen. But by and large the struggle against the Jews is directed at gaining independence for Germans from the economic clutches of the Jewish cabal, and that is a cause well worth fighting for

[/QUOTE]

Making an argument based on a statement that was never made???

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Making an argument based on a statement that was never made???
[/QUOTE]

Nope. Making an argument that points out the logical fallacy in the claim made.

If you support a group, you owe an explanation for the bad acts by the same group and cannot get away with by saying "I support the group but not when they do X,Y or Z"

18

So you take personal reposnsiblity for the gujrat riots, abu ghraib and killing of countless innocents in Iraq, afghanistan and palestine...broad shoulders you have.

murderer!

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
They do not 'routinely' take credit for it, unless you talk about a very specific 'they'.
[/quote]

Let's get specific shall we? Every single "Kashmiri" group has been named as a terrorist organization by Western nations. Every one of them has admitted killing civilians as part of their operations.

[quote]
The killing of jews was wrong. period. gaining independence from the economic clutches of a jewish cabal may or may not have mandated support.
[/quote]

Likewise, killing of innocent Hindus or Muslims is also wrong.

[quote]
Likewise, nobody is defending funnelling money into the coffers of groups that are known to 'routinely' kill innocents and admit doing it.
[/quote]

Does your "Muslim shopkeeper in Brazil" or any other person donating $$ for "Oppressed Muslims" put a condition that theur money should only go towards funding Group X or Y? I know for a fact that most Ahl-e-Hadith mosques and groups collect funds that go towards Lashkar-e-Taiba or Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen. Yet no one seems to be bothered that their generoisty was funding terrorists. Unless the benefactors make it a point to condemn sepcific groups and not just acts, they stand accused of funding and supporting barbaric terrorists as they rightly should be. They owe an explanation. I don't see any mass movements in the Islamic world condemning these groups, do you?

[quote]
Groups on the other hand that do fight against Indian repression do nothing wrong.
[/quote]

Who are these groups that fight "Indian repression" without killing civlians deliberately? Care to point out?

[quote]
Gandhi was associated with violence during the 1940s because some of his supporters got violent. He condemned the violence, but maintained that the fight was justified.
[/quote]

Yes. He also got rid of Subhas Chadra Bose and others who advocated violence from his organization and boycotted them. How many "Kashmiri" groups boycotted other groups after they admitted targeting civlians? Care to name some? Care to name one instance when a jihadi group blasted another for killing civilians? It is always "RAW did it" or some other stupid and false excuse.
Should the backers of the movement have dropped support for the cause because a few involved went astray?

[quote]
Gandhi wasnt a terrorist, and neither are freedom fighters in kashmir terrorists. The terrorists in kashmir are criminals and do not represent the totality of those beleiving and fighting for independence.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry. You need to read some more. Your own people praise groups even after they admitted killing civlians. There are no groups in Kashmir which have not killed civilians. Comparing them to Gandhi is like comparing Hitler to Mother Teresa.

20

[quote]

Sorry. You need to read some more. Your own people praise groups even after they admitted killing civlians. There are no groups in Kashmir which have not killed civilians. Comparing them to Gandhi is like comparing Hitler to Mother Teresa.

[/quote]

No, you need to go beyond South Asia Tribune. A lot of the Kashmiri movement is organic and not necessarily organized under groups that issue press releases. Pakistanis do physically support the cause, and most of us have at some point in our lives come across people who went across the LOC and participated in a legitimate and honrorable battle that focused on Indian troops. And a lot of them abhor the inexplicable innocent killings as much as you and I.

Given that Muslim groups in Kashmir are nebulous with changing boundaries and changing leaders, the culpability of those funding something that goes wrong is much less than those Indian tax payers who fund the indian army in Kashmir. All the rape and murder that the Indian forces commit in Kashmir, is all of that something the Indian on the street should be responsible for. Actually yes, because state authorised terror is a much more serious thing because theres a deliberative thought process firm government officials over there as opposed to some idiot youth who snapped and killed some hindus.

Try looking at HRW/amnesty for Indian army's record in Kashmir. How do you explain your support for it then?