Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

[Seminole]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Now this is a major difference between us and Christians. For us if it is revealed from God it must be word perfect and unimitable by humans. The words really draw the line between human speech and divine speech.

I realize how important it is for Muslims to have the 'word perfect' from God in the Quran and that he has promised to protect the Quran. That is definitely something Christians and other religions cannot say about their scriptures (at least not the mainstream followers). That is why I have always thought it a contradiction that many Muslims put as much emphasis on hadith as they do the Quran. It is as if hadith is also 'scripture'.

That puts Islam back on par with Christianity and seems to diminish the argument of Islam being the religion that follows the words exactly as dictated by God when man made hadith is followed as strictly as others follow their own (man made) scriptures.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@Seminole

I realize how important it is for Muslims to have the 'word perfect' from God in the Quran and that he has promised to protect the Quran. That is definitely something Christians and other religions cannot say about their scriptures (at least not the mainstream followers). That is why I have always thought it a contradiction that many Muslims put as much emphasis on hadith as they do the Quran. It is as if hadith is also 'scripture'.

That puts Islam back on par with Christianity and seems to diminish the argument of Islam being the religion that follows the words exactly as dictated by God when man made hadith is followed as strictly as others follow their own (man made) scriptures.

Semi, if you read through this thread you will come across my post where I clearly stated ahadith are a degree less than Quran. However the comparison of hadith to other scriptures will reveal the painstaking efforts and methods to preserve and authenticate hadith far suprecede the methods utilized to preserve or authenticate other scriptures. Just the intellect and memory of hadith collectors is amazing and not comparable to scholarly standards of today.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

How does the Holy Spirit explain things to you?

The same way the Holy Spirit spoke with various prophets in the past. Can be inner voice, a sudden thought, dream, vision, inner calm, etc.

I can agree that the general gist of the teachings may be same but I can understand historical inaccuracy. This would lead me to believe that the Holy Spirit could be misunderstood.

Wo/man has misunderstood God Almighty often due to their intellect, emotions and own will. Yes, the Holy Spirit can be misunderstood. Many, many wrongs have been committed by well meaning Christians in the past due to such misunderstandings.

If the Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus PBUH, that implies that Jesus PBUH was able to control it or it was something of subservient nature, would I be correct is stating that?

Jesus asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit. Don’t know whether one can say the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Son same as the Son is to the Father. What IS known, is that the Son AND Father are extremely protective of the Holy Spirit.

There are many reknowned scholars of Tafsir. I usually read Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

“Reknown” but it remains that mere humans (not the prophet Muhammad) are defining how the Qur’an should be understood. Surely they can make mistakes and sometimes disagree with each other. Makes the Qur’an less “perfect” if it can’t be understood by mere man, or what?

Now this is a point that was once pointed out by Ahmed Deedat as well (I am sure you are aware of him being in South Africa). He had pointed out that the paranthesis are removed from all other translations except English. This leads the reader to believe that in one case it is part of the original divinely revealed verse whereas in the case with paranthesis you can clearly understand it is meant to make the verse clearer to the reader by a helping comment from the translator. Now what I have pasted here is a difference in even English versions let alone other translated languages.

Mr Deedat was wrong (as many other times) and tend to work with half-truths (very similar to the Jehova Witnesses). The parenthesis is removed from various English translations, not just from the New Living. In fact, one of your quotes prove this (New Living). Other good translations where it also is removed are: NIV, NASV, Amplified. A popular translation where is remains is the KJV.

The problem is actually not parenthesis or no parenthesis. In all good translations the meaning can be either translated in parenthesis or in commas, indicating a further description by the writer Luke and not the translator. What is the difference (for instance) of stating this sentence as What is the difference, for instance, of …? Both convey exactly the same meaning. Sure, some translations is better than others, same as between the English Qur’anic translations. I see no problem how this verse is translated in all the mentioned translations…

Maybe I miss the point. If you intend to state that translators can influence the meaning of scripture, then you are correct. There are some horrendous translations of the Bible in the world. Some denominations and sects made their own translations to flow with their incorrect doctrines. One example is the Jehova’s Witnesses with their New World Translation. (BTW. THEIR English translation ALSO have the missing parenthesis). The fact that some unscrupulous translator can wrongfully translate the Qur’an to change the meaning is also possible, you have to admit. Surely it would not indicate a fault in the Qur’an but rather the translator? So what has the argument got to do w.r.t. the soundness of the teaching of Jesus or the Bible?

Now this is a major difference between us and Christians. For us if it is revealed from God it must be word perfect and unimitable by humans. The words really draw the line between human speech and divine speech.

But Arabic was only a vessel and not necessary God’s language, surely? Surely it is the meaning not the words/language? Words are dead, “meaning” lives. Christians believe as the Apostle Paul wrote “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”.

Did the disciples write a gospel in their lifetimes i.e. Mark, John and Matt?

Yes, these three wrote a gospel each in their own lifetime. Other disciples wrote letters to various churches and people that emphasize various points but do not clash with the gospels.

There is indication that other disciples also wrote gospels and letters that were unfortunately not preserved. Mention are made to them in other manuscripts of the time.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

To USR, The Old Man and armughal.
I personally feel we are talkig on the same point about the compilation of the Scriptures rather than to look at, whats present within the scriptures.

The Criteria for us to accept that Quran or Bible is the very word of God,
1) The scripture should not contradict within itself and its free from all error. AS truth is distinct from error.

2) The scientific nature of the scripture should not be erroneous, here I am stating science but if its the word of God, the scriptures should not contradict from established scientific fact and not theories as theories contradict themselves till any conclusive fact is accepted.

My point is if all of you agree, why dont we quote verses from the scriptures and if they are any contradictions found the opposite side can provide an explanation,hence clearing the doubts of the onlookers and what each of us think about Quran and Bible.
Just my 2c

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Jesus asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit. Don’t know whether one can say the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Son same as the Son is to the Father. What IS known, is that the Son AND Father are extremely protective of the Holy Spirit.

Yet you say all three are one. Every explanation I have seen thus far talks distinctly about the three i.e. Father, Son and Spirit. I so far have not come across an explanation that allures how the three act as one or become one in any sense of perception. However this is not something to discuss in scriptures so we can revisit this when we talk about Jesus PBUH.

@The Old Man

“Reknown” but it remains that mere humans (not the prophet Muhammad) are defining how the Qur’an should be understood. Surely they can make mistakes and sometimes disagree with each other. Makes the Qur’an less “perfect” if it can’t be understood by mere man, or what?

If the spirit can speak througn mere humans in Christianity then why can’t mere humans understand most of the Quran. It is written in the tongue of humans, not martian

The best tafsirs explain it with verses from Quran itself and ahadith (which are explanations of its practicality in real life). When it is stated that it cannot be understood completely just by reading the translation is because a good portion of the verses were revealed based on life events of the Prophet Muhammad SAW. So its necessary to know the historical context of revelation to gain an understanding of the principle conveyed through the verse in many situations. However the verses concerning Aqidah (creed or the dogma of Islam) are crystal clear and no one can misnuderstand them even by reading just a translation i.e. Oneness of Allah SWT, his absolute power, Muhammad SAW being the last messenger, judgment day, heaven, hell etc. Some of the laws or Shariah given is based on the events occuring. There are a very select few verses people have at times really misinterpreted i.e. apostacy, wife beating, armed jihad, etc or let me make it clear the ones that culminate in killing are the ones often misinterpreted and the reasons are many.

It does not prove the Quran is imperfect but us humans are imperfect because we cannot stick to what believe to follow. Thats the basic purpose for us to exist, to test us through this life in preparation for the next life.

Realistically, if the creed of the religion confuses its followers then there is little hope they will develop any genuine attachment or understanding to the religion.

I would say there is nothing in the Quran that would be more confusing than understanding Trinity.

@The Old Man

Mr Deedat was wrong (as many other times) and tend to work with half-truths (very similar to the Jehova Witnesses). The parenthesis is removed from various English translations, not just from the New Living. In fact, one of your quotes prove this (New Living). Other good translations where it also is removed are: NIV, NASV, Amplified. A popular translation where is remains is the KJV.

The problem is actually not parenthesis or no parenthesis. In all good translations the meaning can be either translated in parenthesis or in commas, indicating a further description by the writer Luke and not the translator. What is the difference (for instance) of stating this sentence as What is the difference, for instance, of …? Both convey exactly the same meaning. Sure, some translations is better than others, same as between the English Qur’anic translations. I see no problem how this verse is translated in all the mentioned translations…

Maybe I miss the point. If you intend to state that translators can influence the meaning of scripture, then you are correct. There are some horrendous translations of the Bible in the world. Some denominations and sects made their own translations to flow with their incorrect doctrines. One example is the Jehova’s Witnesses with their New World Translation. (BTW. THEIR English translation ALSO have the missing parenthesis). The fact that some unscrupulous translator can wrongfully translate the Qur’an to change the meaning is also possible, you have to admit. Surely it would not indicate a fault in the Qur’an but rather the translator? So what has the argument got to do w.r.t. the soundness of the teaching of Jesus or the Bible?

Oh! Nothing to do with Jesus PBUH but it overshadows the Bible authenticity then. Especially it matters in which part such extrapolations occur. Btw the do you belive Jesus PBUH had a father or he had a miraculous birth without a father?

I don’t think they convey the same meaning, there is a big difference between a known fact and one that is supposed, especially when we are discussing the birth of Jesus PBUH, which is already so convoluted in Christianity and is one of the major differences between Islam and Christianity. Salvation in Christianity depends on Jesus PBUH, any information about him should not be second guessed or confusing in my opinion. One reading the Quran can never comprehend from anywhere in the Quran that Allah SWT could be pluralistic. Your answer to this statement will bring out another good point, if you answer to this though.

@The Old Man

But Arabic was only a vessel and not necessary God’s language, surely? Surely it is the meaning not the words/language? Words are dead, “meaning” lives. Christians believe as the Apostle Paul wrote “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”.

On the contrary, Allah SWT used the Arabic language to convey his message along with the challenge to replicate even one Surah in Arabic language, the challenge is still uncontested. The language makes a world of difference. It may not make difference in the Bible if all its composers are humans. The meaning of words changes over time, so in fact meanings could also be dead but their words can live on. You gave an example from African language yourself, the word has multiple meanings, may be a long time from now the word will remain and be understood in only one contextual meaning.

@The Old Man

Yes, these three wrote a gospel each in their own lifetime. Other disciples wrote letters to various churches and people that emphasize various points but do not clash with the gospels.

There is indication that other disciples also wrote gospels and letters that were unfortunately not preserved. Mention are made to them in other manuscripts of the time.

So there is no aspect of historical preservation since the Holy Spirit spoke though the disciples. Is that correct?

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

To USR, The Old Man and armughal. I personally feel we are talkig on the same point about the compilation of the Scriptures rather than to look at, whats present within the scriptures.

The Criteria for us to accept that Quran or Bible is the very word of God, 1) The scripture should not contradict within itself and its free from all error. AS truth is distinct from error.

2) The scientific nature of the scripture should not be erroneous, here I am stating science but if its the word of God, the scriptures should not contradict from established scientific fact and not theories as theories contradict themselves till any conclusive fact is accepted.

My point is if all of you agree, why dont we quote verses from the scriptures and if they are any contradictions found the opposite side can provide an explanation,hence clearing the doubts of the onlookers and what each of us think about Quran and Bible. Just my 2c

Nothing wrong with that however that would lead to a debate. If Old Man is fine with it then I would certainly follow through.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Nothing wrong with that however that would lead to a debate. If Old Man is fine with it then I would certainly follow through.

We can let SlaveofAllah loose.

Since I am the only one here that has read the opposing religion’s scripture cover-to-cover, I assume SlaveofAllaah wants to cut and past from various sites bashing the Bible. I only hope he will accept plausible solutions when offered to him and not be impossible to convince such as some of these authors I have seen.

For my part, I will stick to the list as previously mentioned, near the end of this discussion.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

If the spirit can speak througn mere humans in Christianity then why can’t mere humans understand most of the Quran.

Exactly why I feel the Hadiths and Tafsir should not be necessary. If it is not written in the Qur’an, it is not important. If it can’t be understood from the Qur’an when viewed as a whole, the explanation is suspect. God wants to work with individuals, not learned people whose intellect hinders them when trying to understand God. Those parts which do need a more scholarly explanation are normally not essential for salvation.

So its necessary to know the historical context of revelation to gain an understanding of the principle conveyed through the verse in many situations. However the verses concerning Aqidah (creed or the dogma of Islam) are crystal clear and no one can misnuderstand them even by reading just a translation

I agree and accept your viewpoint.

Realistically, if the creed of the religion confuses its followers then there is little hope they will develop any genuine attachment or understanding to the religion.

In history a few with knowledge have often held the ignorant at ransom and in awe, even in Christianity.

I would say there is nothing in the Quran that would be more confusing than understanding Trinity.

It actually is very simple considering yourself as a person, we can revisit it during the conversation on Jesus. The biggest problem I have found for people to understand the Tri-une God concept, are people that don’t want to understand it because it might upset their own idea of God and believes. Anyway, understanding the Trinity concept is not needed for salvation in Christianity! It merely makes understanding various parts of scripture easier.

Btw the do you belive Jesus PBUH had a father or he had a miraculous birth without a father?

Jesus was miraculously conceived but had a natural birth. The seed that initiated Jesus was not from any human male. Jesus was raised by Joseph his adopted father.

I don’t think they convey the same meaning

You do not accept my example? What would be the difference in the example I gave between the two sentences?

…especially when we are discussing the birth of Jesus PBUH…is one of the major differences between Islam and Christianity.

I actually think both religions agree on the birth and conception. It is peripheral issues the two faiths disagree on.

Salvation in Christianity depends on Jesus PBUH, any information about him should not be second guessed or confusing in my opinion.

Correct. Jesus and his mission to Earth is central to the whole Bible and salvation as per Christianity. There are some cornerstones (or pillars) in Christianity of which ANY one being not true, makes Christianity redundant and false: Origen of sin; sinful nature of mankind; immaculate conception of Jesus; Jesus death and resurrection. You take any one of these four away, and Christianity can’t exist.

One reading the Quran can never comprehend from anywhere in the Quran that Allah SWT could be pluralistic. Your answer to this statement will bring out another good point, if you answer to this though.

The fact that there is one loving but stern God Almighty who created all and who expects worship to Him alone, is an absolute in Christianity. God is not plural. We ourselves though are also made up of three distict units/entities, e.g. body ≠ soul ≠ spirit. You exist of three separate entities but remain ONE person (body, ego, id as per psychologists). This is the difference between you, a rock/plant (one entity), and an animal (two entities). These entities can be separated from one another, e.g. death and distruction of the body while the soul-spirit combination live on until a new body can be found.

On the contrary, Allah SWT used the Arabic language to convey his message along with the challenge to replicate even one Surah in Arabic language, the challenge is still uncontested.

Don’t you think that this challenge is somewhat subjective/illogical? A Muslim only needs to say “sorry but I think that the Qur’an is more perfect” to win the argument. Get an atheist to judge and you will be surprised how many writings by different authors are more beautiful or logical or poetic than the Qur’an. I can think of many segments of the Bible that compare AND even surpass the Qur’an’s literary value (but you HAVE to insist it is not better because you CAN’T accept that the Qur’an can be wrong - it is part of your faith)!

So there is no aspect of historical preservation since the Holy Spirit spoke though the disciples. Is that correct?

You lost me here. Historical preservation? If the Holy Spirit is still with mankind explaining the Bible and Jesus’ teaching, how could it be better preserved? No part of the message can change because the Author is every moment of the day making sure the meaning and essence of the message remains crystal clear.

Imagine you have the author of the Qur’an, the prophet Muhammad, inside you as you go about life’s multitude of challenges, explaining what God want’s from you in every situation. Surely you then would not need to be guided by the Qur’an? The Qur’an will become redundant as far as living a godly life. You would only require the Qur’an when interacting with other Muslims w.r.t. insignificant detail about the faith. If the other Muslim also have the prophet guiding him, you would be in one mind with no arguments. If the other Muslim do not have the prophet guiding him, you will have to resort on the Qur’an for clarity.

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Get an atheist to judge and you will be surprised how many writings by different authors are more beautiful or logical or poetic than the Qur'an.

Is this my que to get into the dialogue? Carry on guys you two are doing great. Just wanted to lighten up the mood little bit.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Let me find the Quranic verse for you. It does not say that Jesus PBUH gave the Ingil but Jesus PBUH was given the Ingil, it does not say how Jesus PBUH conveyed it to his disciples.

For Gospel or Injeel being mentioned in the Quran:

005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@Light Bearer

Is this my que to get into the dialogue? Carry on guys you two are doing great. Just wanted to lighten up the mood little bit.

Opportunist …

Looks now

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Exactly why I feel the Hadiths and Tafsir should not be necessary. If it is not written in the Qur'an, it is not important. If it can't be understood from the Qur'an when viewed as a whole, the explanation is suspect. God wants to work with individuals, not learned people whose intellect hinders them when trying to understand God. Those parts which do need a more scholarly explanation are normally not essential for salvation.

Well actually what you have mentioned is among one of the criteria for verifying the hadith, if it goes against the Quran then it is discarded. As for if it can't be viewed as a whole then it being suspect is a bit overbearing the argument. You can make this argument from the Christian view point because as you have stated the Bible is a mixture of divine verses and there explanation as well whereas in Islam the original divine scripture Quran is kept separate from the its explanations i.e. hadith and tafsirs. Hadith are not explanations attributed to scholars but explanations attributed to Muhammad SAW, which makes it different from scholarly interpretations and explanations. The above statement is implicit with Christianity only.

@The Old Man

In history a few with knowledge have often held the ignorant at ransom and in awe, even in Christianity.

Not the case with Islam, the creed of Islam as I mentioned is crystal clear from the Quran.

@The Old Man

It actually is very simple considering yourself as a person, we can revisit it during the conversation on Jesus. The biggest problem I have found for people to understand the Tri-une God concept, are people that don't want to understand it because it might upset their own idea of God and believes. Anyway, understanding the Trinity concept is not needed for salvation in Christianity! It merely makes understanding various parts of scripture easier.

A paradox for Christians as well.

@The Old Man

Jesus was miraculously conceived but had a natural birth. The seed that initiated Jesus was not from any human male. Jesus was raised by Joseph his adopted father.

So you agree that he had no biological father then.

@The Old Man

You do not accept my example? What would be the difference in the example I gave between the two sentences?

The difference lies in writing literature, when things occur in paranthesis, that means they are additions to the original text for sake of clarity otherwise it would be part of the original text. One more thing about that verse based on your previous statement, what is the difference between supposed father and an adopted father?

@The Old Man

I actually think both religions agree on the birth and conception. It is peripheral issues the two faiths disagree on.

The major difference is on the crucification and diefication of Jesus PBUH.

@The Old Man

Correct. Jesus and his mission to Earth is central to the whole Bible and salvation as per Christianity. There are some cornerstones (or pillars) in Christianity of which ANY one being not true, makes Christianity redundant and false: Origen of sin; sinful nature of mankind; immaculate conception of Jesus; Jesus death and resurrection. You take any one of these four away, and Christianity can't exist.

This is the reason why Christianity can never accept Muhammad SAW as a prophet and the Quran because it changes the stance on Jesus PBUH, without which, as you have stated Christianity cannot stand. So it has little to do with Islam being true or not but more to do with preservation of Christian creed.

@The Old Man

The fact that there is one loving but stern God Almighty who created all and who expects worship to Him alone, is an absolute in Christianity. God is not plural. We ourselves though are also made up of three distict units/entities, e.g. body ≠ soul ≠ spirit. You exist of three separate entities but remain ONE person (body, ego, id as per psychologists). This is the difference between you, a rock/plant (one entity), and an animal (two entities). These entities can be separated from one another, e.g. death and distruction of the body while the soul-spirit combination live on until a new body can be found.

If I were to take this argument then I could have called myself God (Aaudubillah) because it marred the difference between you and Jesus PBUH.

@The Old Man

Don't you think that this challenge is somewhat subjective/illogical? A Muslim only needs to say "sorry but I think that the Qur'an is more perfect" to win the argument. Get an atheist to judge and you will be surprised how many writings by different authors are more beautiful or logical or poetic than the Qur'an. I can think of many segments of the Bible that compare AND even surpass the Qur'an's literary value (but you HAVE to insist it is not better because you CAN'T accept that the Qur'an can be wrong - it is part of your faith)!

I disagree here however I would say your argument holds within the point of reference you have about Quranic knowledge, though only limited to you. This is a long topic by itself however I would like to invite SlaveOfAllah to dialogue on this one, I remember he or someone else once had some very good posts on this and they would be helpful here. This challenge is best understood under the context of knowing Arabic literature and reasons for this challenge. Let me see if I can find what I need here. It has nothing to do with words ringing a beautiful meaning but more about how the Arabic language was used in the Quran verses all known forms of prose and poetry in Arabic.

@The Old Man

You lost me here. Historical preservation? If the Holy Spirit is still with mankind explaining the Bible and Jesus' teaching, how could it be better preserved? No part of the message can change because the Author is every moment of the day making sure the meaning and essence of the message remains crystal clear.

Tell me how can you detect from human behavior that the Spirit is with him?

@The Old Man

Imagine you have the author of the Qur'an, the prophet Muhammad, inside you as you go about life's multitude of challenges, explaining what God want's from you in every situation. Surely you then would not need to be guided by the Qur'an? The Qur'an will become redundant as far as living a godly life. You would only require the Qur'an when interacting with other Muslims w.r.t. insignificant detail about the faith. If the other Muslim also have the prophet guiding him, you would be in one mind with no arguments. If the other Muslim do not have the prophet guiding him, you will have to resort on the Qur'an for clarity.

The reason for having Quran is because Prophet Muhammad SAW was not to remain among us forever but his personality and guidance is preserved in the Quran and hadith.

Is there a difference in Christianity between the Spirit form the triune and the Spirit of the human?

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

We can let SlaveofAllah loose.

Since I am the only one here that has read the opposing religion's scripture cover-to-cover, I assume SlaveofAllaah wants to cut and past from various sites bashing the Bible. I only hope he will accept plausible solutions when offered to him and not be impossible to convince such as some of these authors I have seen.

For my part, I will stick to the list as previously mentioned, near the end of this discussion.

I feel your taking it personally for some reason, well carry on i thought this would be a better idea. As i want to tell the Muslim brother and others here that Quran is the best miracle Prophet was provided and they know it.

Thats fine, you wanna stay away from this, i dont mind. Well till then take care, have a nice time brother. I dont wont to interrupt the dialogue and its great to see USR, The Old Man and armughal in a healthy discussion.

Anyways thanks for the above comments.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@Light Bearer

Is this my que to get into the dialogue? Carry on guys you two are doing great. Just wanted to lighten up the mood little bit.

I didn’t realise the mood has become so somber. Feel free to lighten it up and contribute.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Hadith are not explanations attributed to scholars but explanations attributed to Muhammad SAW, which makes it different from scholarly interpretations and explanations.

Did the prophet Muhammad requested the Hadiths to be written and did he scrutinise/checked them?

Not the case with Islam, the creed of Islam as I mentioned is crystal clear from the Quran.

Actually it exists in Islam as well. Those with the ability of reading and understanding Arabic can, in any argument, just state that the other person does not have a good understanding of the meaning in the Qur’an BECAUSE they can’t read/understand Arabic. I have seen it countless times here on Gupshup where people are “corrected” because they are not Arabic “competent”.

So you agree that he had no biological father then.

Yes.

The difference lies in writing literature, when things occur in paranthesis, that means they are additions to the original text for sake of clarity otherwise it would be part of the original text.

Not true if one consider language rules. Either commas or parenthesis can be used by the writer to give clarity. I have never heard of a rule (say in English) where all things in parenthesis should be considered the way you state. Maybe it is so in Arabic? It most definitely is not so in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, Afrikaans, etc. A footnote is normally used although sometimes writers do use the parenthesis - no sweeping rule though.

One more thing about that verse based on your previous statement, what is the difference between supposed father and an adopted father?

Supposed father is the father that the community think is the male that sired him and adopted father is one that adopt another’s child as his own.

The major difference is on the crucification and diefication of Jesus PBUH.

Correct.

This is the reason why Christianity can never accept Muhammad SAW as a prophet and the Quran because it changes the stance on Jesus PBUH, without which, as you have stated Christianity cannot stand. So it has little to do with Islam being true or not but more to do with preservation of Christian creed.

Preservation is not necessary the correct word. One could say that the believe that the prophet Muhammad was the last prophet annd the Qur’an perfect without any mistake is also preservation since Islam can’t stand if either beliefs are wrong. I would rather use the word “core values/doctrines”, not preservation.

If I were to take this argument then I could have called myself God (Aaudubillah) because it marred the difference between you and Jesus PBUH.

Don’t understand your reasoning here.

I know Islam accepts that a Muslim (say he is called John) consists of a body and soul (or spirit - we did discuss it in the previous dialogues). Once John the body dies, it is still called by it’s name when it is buried and even recognised as John after many years. Meantime the soul has departed the body and exist in another place/sphere and is still considered to be John.

Islam thus recognise that John consists of two entities (call it a Duality). I am sure that whenever the Spirit of God is mentioned (being blown into man), it CAN’T logically be the angel Gabriel. If it is accepted that God has a Holy Spirit that He blew into Adam, AND Islam recognise that a Duality can exist, then the understanding of this instance is so much easier.

Christianity takes it one step further by enabling God Almighty also to be able to function in the normal (not spiritual world) as an entity, namely Jesus. Surely an Omnipotent Creator God can exist physically in his own creation! I think (might be wrong) that Islam does not accept that God can exist in the physical universe (very illogical) and therefor He has no physical direct contact with mankind. Christianity believes God CAN get physically involved.

Tell me how can you detect from human behavior that the Spirit is with him?

It all depends in what way the other person has dedicated his live to God and under how much influence he is of the Holy Spirit. I have many times, without speaking to a person, been able to ask a complete stranger if he is a re-born Christian and it was confirmed. The Spirit in him and me enable our spirits to be in harmony and to reach out to each other.

The reason for having Quran is because Prophet Muhammad SAW was not to remain among us forever but his personality and guidance is preserved in the Quran and hadith.

BUT, you have to admit that if the scenario was possible, that my statement is true that the Qur’an would not be as central to Islam as it is today.

Is there a difference in Christianity between the Spirit form the triune and the Spirit of the human?

Our spirit is created from God’s Spirit. That is why there is a longing from mankind to a superior being in order to worship something/someone. That is what distinguish man from animal.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

SlaveofAllaah, please feel free to take part. In order to not go overboard, give 5 of your best arguments and we will discuss them. Try and use examples that impact on the meaning/message of the Bible if you can.

Would it help if I state that there have been transcribing/copying and other minor errors in the Bible? The message and purpose of the Bible are not affected though....

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

SlaveofAllaah, please feel free to take part. In order to not go overboard, give 5 of your best arguments and we will discuss them. Try and use examples that impact on the meaning/message of the Bible if you can.

Would it help if I state that there have been transcribing/copying and other minor errors in the Bible? The message and purpose of the Bible are not affected though…

I wont go one at a shot, see if this helps and then we can carry on from there. From my understanding of the Bible compilation and previous posts of yours. I stand for correction

1. YOu agree all the Gospels were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2. Accept for Luke all of them were eyewitness for the entire events.

If you can help me clarify Luke Ch 1: v 1-5 and verse 2 and 3 Bible Study . Your explanation would be more then enough, they wont be any rebuttal unless required.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Did the prophet Muhammad requested the Hadiths to be written and did he scrutinise/checked them?

Its implicit from the Quran, we are supposed to follow his Sunnah or his way, which is why ahadith were recorded and compiled. The compilation of hadith in my opinion was more out of need. Arabs being an oral society did not depend on written material but memorized everything. Plus the Prophet SAW was in the midst of them. I know the next thing you would say is the same holds true for Jesus PBUH in the midst of his disciples as well and I would agree with that however the difference would be the message Muhammad SAW conveyed i.e. the Quran was written and in the case of Jesus PBUH, there is only shady evidence of how much his message was preserved. Analogically the ahadith of Christianity have been merged into the bible instead of being separate, this reduces the authenticity of the Bible message.

@The Old Man

Actually it exists in Islam as well. Those with the ability of reading and understanding Arabic can, in any argument, just state that the other person does not have a good understanding of the meaning in the Qur'an BECAUSE they can't read/understand Arabic. I have seen it countless times here on Gupshup where people are "corrected" because they are not Arabic "competent".

True, nothing wrong with that. So those who know the Greek manuscriptures of Christianity do the same when they read English translations the meanings derived from them. Btw I do not know Greek. My knowledge of the differences between the Greek or Hebrew scriptures and the English ones relies on research not personal understanding acquired through reading the Greek manuscriptures.

@The Old Man

Yes.

Then why the supposed father part, shouldn't it be clear by saying adopted father.

@The Old Man

Not true if one consider language rules. Either commas or parenthesis can be used by the writer to give clarity. I have never heard of a rule (say in English) where all things in parenthesis should be considered the way you state. Maybe it is so in Arabic? It most definitely is not so in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, Afrikaans, etc. A footnote is normally used although sometimes writers do use the parenthesis - no sweeping rule though.

So if I remove the part from paranthesis and read it, it would say Joseph was the father of Jesus PBUH, father in the sense of biological father not adopted because there is nothing there to suggest such. A footnote is surely not revealed scripture though, its literary practice same as the paranthesis are.

@The Old Man

Supposed father is the father that the community think is the male that sired him and adopted father is one that adopt another's child as his own.

What does SIRED mean?

@The Old Man

Preservation is not necessary the correct word. One could say that the believe that the prophet Muhammad was the last prophet annd the Qur'an perfect without any mistake is also preservation since Islam can't stand if either beliefs are wrong. I would rather use the word "core values/doctrines", not preservation.

Actually there is some difference, Islam stands by still accepting Jesus PBUH but for what he really was, so a lot from Christianity regarding Jesus PBUH is accepted except for the Dogma whereas Christianity would die if it accepted Muhammad SAW. So to Islam, Christianity is misguided but to Christianity, Islam is an enemy (not trying to fight here).

@The Old Man

Don't understand your reasoning here.

What I meant is that what is it that separates you from God then. When he was incarnate as Jesus PBUH he had a body, soul and spirit just like any other human being, what made him God then in that form?

@The Old Man

I know Islam accepts that a Muslim (say he is called John) consists of a body and soul (or spirit - we did discuss it in the previous dialogues). Once John the body dies, it is still called by it's name when it is buried and even recognised as John after many years. Meantime the soul has departed the body and exist in another place/sphere and is still considered to be John.

Correct, can't say though if the Soul would be labeled as John though but generally I think you are correct here.

@The Old Man

Islam thus recognise that John consists of two entities (call it a Duality). I am sure that whenever the Spirit of God is mentioned (being blown into man), it CAN'T logically be the angel Gabriel. If it is accepted that God has a Holy Spirit that He blew into Adam, AND Islam recognise that a Duality can exist, then the understanding of this instance is so much easier.

I see your point, but I will comment further after my last question is answered.

@The Old Man

Christianity takes it one step further by enabling God Almighty also to be able to function in the normal (not spiritual world) as an entity, namely Jesus. Surely an Omnipotent Creator God can exist physically in his own creation! I think (might be wrong) that Islam does not accept that God can exist in the physical universe (very illogical) and therefor He has no physical direct contact with mankind. Christianity believes God CAN get physically involved.

But then there is no line demarcating his Divinity from that of other humans. This leads to further analysis that why does God need to dwell in a human body, for what purpose?

@The Old Man

It all depends in what way the other person has dedicated his live to God and under how much influence he is of the Holy Spirit. I have many times, without speaking to a person, been able to ask a complete stranger if he is a re-born Christian and it was confirmed. The Spirit in him and me enable our spirits to be in harmony and to reach out to each other.

Sounds like telepathy :)
What if you and that person are on the same page yet he does not accept Jesus PBUH as God, then where does that put him?

@The Old Man

BUT, you have to admit that if the scenario was possible, that my statement is true that the Qur'an would not be as central to Islam as it is today.

Then it would be called Christianity not Islam. We can't morph things here but such suppositions.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

If you can help me clarify Luke Ch 1: v 1-5 and verse 2 and 3

What do you want clarified?

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

What do you want clarified?

Luke is mentioned that he has written down, only from hearsay of eyewitnesses and there was no inspiration from Holy spirit as mentioned by you earlier. Just a doubt I have 3 more i hope you can clear it.
Thanks.