Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Jee, what I did say to get deserve a long answer like that

A small thesis I had to do some years ago, sorry.

As far as Allah SWT breathing his spirit into Adam, I think I answered this somewhere before. ‘HIS’ does not mean Allah SWT soul or spirit, but a soul or spirit that was created for Adam.

Create and breath are two different words with two different meanings. See what Surah 32:9 say.

So three separate and distinct things here i.e. Adam (non-living form), Allah SWT, soul or spirit created for breathing into Adam’s non-living form. As I mentioned before soul and spirit are synonomous in Islam. Your interpretation is not right.

…according to your interpretation of the Qur’an. My interpretation of the Qur’an (which is not as complete as the teaching in the Bible on this point) fit completely with what the Bible describes, as per a Christian interpretation of the Qur’an.

I have no clue what the Ark of covenant is?

My mistake! :sad: I meant the Tabernacle not the Arc. BTW: You don’t know about the Ark of the Covenant and the Qur’an mentions it in Surah 2:248?

Science cannot explain soul or spirit. Only theories. Evolution is also a theory as is the big bang, just that there is no better theory in science yet. Science is based on material evidence or experimentation. It can certainly come up with theories and thats all there is.

We are digressing tremendously in this thread!

There is nothing wrong with evolution. It is a proven fact. As people of faith, we have to live with it. Ever thought that you have misunderstood scripture and therefor you have to believe (faith not facts) that evolution does not exist.

Evolution exist in geology as well as biology. I have NO problem, from a Biblical view, to accept that all life on Earth started out as the Evolutionists claim: a primordial soup. The description of how God “guided” creation to enable this to happen is clear for me from Genesis 1. The Bible does not reject or clash with the evolution theory. Where the Bible and Evolution part, is the three creation acts mention of God. It is exactly on these three points where the Evolution Theory has absolutely no idea or answers. My answer: God. The missing link is not between the humanoids and apes, but these three scientific unexplained acts of creation by God.

Surely, things that man cannot grasp cannot be explained in mans language either, they are left as unexplained as defined in our language. One of the reasons we cannot grasp it is because we have no language expression or physical experience to express it. Like in Islam, the mysteries of the soul are mostly unexplained and we are not supposed to ponder much either because we have no way of expressing our understanding of it. So if Trinity cannot be grasped how are Christians possibly expressing it in language that makes it understandible, which is what the Catholic school says, its a mystery, as you just said it with a different accent of words.

Point taken. God Almighty is a mystery and can’t be fully comprehended by man’s finite brain. If one could understand God Almighty, one is actually busy with an idol and not God. But, we humans try our level best to try and make some understanding from what we know. We might be wrong as to the Tri-une God concept, we might be closer to the truth than Islam, who knows? Christianity, by using the Bible, at least try and fathom God Almighty closer than what I can understand from the Qur’an since it does not go into the whole issue in such depth as the Bible. The same for the soul and spirit of man.

Why does an all-powerful God need to beget a Son and dwell among the people to and sacrifice Jesus PBUH?

Let’s leave it for either the Jesus topic or Salvation.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Jesus PBUH is worshipped as God in Christianity as if he has the same stead as God.

According to Christianity, Jesus is not a “partner” with God but the same essence. As previously explained, if God (and being Almighty, He can) take a part of Him and make it visible to man, would you state it is not God? Of course it is God. Will God be angry because you worship a part of Him? I doubt it, because He would then be jealous of himself which is illogical. Christians understand from the Old and the New Testament AS WELL AS Jesus’s own words that Jesus is part of God - not a third seperate person to be worshipped. By worshipping Jesus, Christians are worshipping God because Jesus is part of God.

This is why Jesus PBUH being a prophet…

This is the crux of the difference between Christianity and Islam. If Jesus was but a mere prophet, Christians also would not consider him as part of God. Unfortunately the Bible and Jesus tells us otherwise.

Did Jesus PBUH ever say he does things of his own will, always its doing the will of the Father, always permission from the Father.

Same as what your body should do. It should be under the control of your soul and not react on it’s own. Same with Jesus (body) and Father (soul).

Jesus PBUH himself never equated himself to God then what right people have to do so?

That is where you are wrong. Jesus DID equate himself with God. Bring this point up when we discuss Jesus.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

Anyways this thread is gone to opposite poles i feel USR and The Old Man can summarize the topic as usual and then let us go onto the head of all the dialogues Jesus and Mohammed peace be upon them.

The rebuttal to The Old Man, let me explain it in detail now

1) So you agree wiht that earth was created in an epoch similar to the Quran " I would say epoch of 6 days". You also agree wrt to verse 3-5, that light was created on the first day, clearly mentioning a 24 hour day. Well i use the concordist approach let us go further. No where in the first 19 verses its mentioned that Stars wre already created and it unclear to earth, it precisely says light, and precisely mentions about the stars on the 4th day its conclusive.

2) You told me light had already been created in verse 3 and 5, and you deny that cause of light stars were created on 4th day as in verse 14-19, later than the light which came on the first day. I am using concordist approach.

3) Verse 9-13 it clearly says that earth was created precisely on the 3rd day, how can anyone have Night and day,without creation of earth as night and day, according to established scientific fact depends upon the rotation of the earth.
4) Verse, 9-13 earth was created on the 3rd day, now you read the verses 14-19 clearly if you have overlooked I just put the first line 'Let there be lights in the firmaments of the heavens to separate the day from night" its very clear the cause of light in the verse 3-5, according to bible and referring to bible again the cause of light was created from verses 14-19. Because today science tell us that earth was created from the parent body the Sun its unscientific, ok i use the concordist approach and overlook and agree with your point let me go further.

5) Verse, 11-13 shrubs, vegetation created on the 3rd day and sun 4th day. I know since my school days I have learnt, the concept of Photosynthesis. But light created on first day and again cause of light created on 4th day and again 3rd day shrubs were created . Ok let me use the carbon oxide concept of yours here we are talking about the growth and living of shrubs and is carbon oxide or photosynthesis necessary for plants well, I dont wont to delve in further into concept of cholrophyll,wel this is what I can remember from my school days.

6) Bible says in verse 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. **
Now let me touch point 17 here **And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon earth, to rule over
Now God created sun and moon agreed but as indicated verse 17 that God appointed the sun and moon to Give light of its own, which is in contradiction with established science knowledge we have.

But let me use the concordist approach again, as you agree I agree that Bible was created in 6 long days (era or epoch) and not 24 days though its clearly mentioned, about evening and morning, night and day that its 24 hours. I stils use a concordist approach and agree with this illogical error.

1) You wil be able to solve, 1st scientific error of 6 days creation problem and solve first day light and 3rd day earth but still remaining 4 scientific errors, you cannot solve.
OR we argue further
2) You might say why cant the vegetables survive for one 24 hour period, I agree fine but you say that vegetables were created before the sun and could survive for one 24 hour period, i am fine with that but you cant mention day as 24 hours as well as epochs, you cant have both 24 hours and epoch both.

If you say its a long period or epoch you solve point 1 and point no. 3, remaining 4 yet there. And if you say by chance its a 24 hour day that you can only solve my point no. 5. but still 5 scientific errors are still there.

Now since you have agree upon long days, still 4 scientific errors are yet to be solved.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

I think we are drifting away quite a bit. This is the summary of things I deduced from this thread regarding Heaven, Hell and Judgement day:

1 - Both religions agree on reckoning i.e. Judgement day
2 - Both religions agree on hell and that sinners will go there.
3 - According to Islam people will go to heaven however according to Christianity heaven will be a new earth inhabited with people and Jesus PBUH among them.
4 - Salvation came up a number of times here but we will discuss it in its own thread since the views widely differ between the two religions.
5 - The signs before judgement day are not the same. The signs given in Islam are not to be found in Christianity and vice versa.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

The next thread Inshallah! will be Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH according to both religions. I know it was requested in this thread that Salvation/Original sin be discussed in its own thread however I feel it will be inherent in the next thread.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

5 - The signs before judgement day are not the same. The signs given in Islam are not to be found in Christianity and vice versa.

I agree with your summary. The last one might read that SOME of the signs are the same. Both religions agree that at the end-of-days there will be calamities befalling Earth as well as mankind.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

The next thread Inshallah! will be Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH according to both religions. I know it was requested in this thread that Salvation/Original sin be discussed in its own thread however I feel it will be inherent in the next thread.

Agree.

I think there might be less discussion on the prophet Muhammad than Jesus and therefor would prefer us starting off with the prophet Muhammad and finishing with Jesus - if you agree.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

SlaveofAllah, our discussion is WAY off the topic but since it has run it’s course, and I enjoy talking on Genesis 1, let us continue.

@SlaveofAllaah

1. So you agree wiht that earth was created in an epoch similar to the Quran

Yes.

You also agree wrt to verse 3-5, that light was created on the first day

Stars were forming, not being created. (No use of the word created “bara”).

clearly mentioning a 24 hour day.

The word can mean a 24 hour day or even an indefinite time or “age”. Since no humans are involved at this stage of the creation, and the Sun not visible, the use of the words “day” and “night” should be seen as figuratively because God does not have restrictions such as these. In His presence it is always light. He never sleeps nor rests. The use of “day” here is therefor an indication of the start of a process in order to set a sequence.

Well i use the concordist approach let us go further.

What do you mean “concordist approach”? What I am stating on Genesis 1 you will not find anywhere on the web as it is my own interpretation. I wrote a thesis on it some years back after listening to a talk by a Doctor in Geology. The different approaches Christians take on Genesis 1-2 is to:

1. To take the days in Genesis to mean 24 hours (as you do) with some fancy footwork in explaining the age of Earth as being “created” old. In this approach NO differentiation is made between the words “asah=to make/form from something” and “bara=create from nothing”. This approach assume that all the things “made” each day were “created” instantaneously. It is wrong.

2. To take verse 1 as separate from the rest. According to this approach verse 1 indicates the creation of the universe and even an Earth populated with possible humanoids and dinosours. The earth was then destroyed and from Genesis 1v3 reshaped and repopulated.

3. To take Genesis 1-2 as purely figuratively and not literal. A story to explain the existence of the universe.

4. A small minority who prefer reading all in the Bible as literal as possible and when impossible, to understand it in a figurative/symbolic way. I use this approach. It helps to explain the difference in the use of the words “create” and “make”, it sets the creation version of Genesis completely in line with science, it also explains God as a Tri-une being (further used in the rest of the Bible), it explain the way mankind are made (body, soul, spirit as per rest of Bible) according to God’s image or likeness as per Gen.1v26, etc. There is only one aspect that cause a difficulty in explaining which you have not succeeded in listing yet, and I will not help you . In considering your questions on the Genesis 1-2, and my answer, you will have to do it in the light of this approach to understanding Genesis 1-2.

No where in the first 19 verses its mentioned that Stars wre already created

How can there be “light” without stars? Of course stars were in existence since verse 3. Remember my approach. First the Big Bang, then lots and lots of light (making it difficult for astronomers to “see” inside the first 500 million years after creation/bang. THEN particles starting to form in dust clouds and the beginning of pockets of light and darkness, as mentioned in verse 3. Stars therefor were formed during this age/period and therefor existed before the 4’th day.

2. You told me light had already been created in verse 3 and 5, and you deny that cause of light stars were created on 4th day as in verse 14-19, later than the light which came on the first day.

Yes, I deny that stars were “created” on day 4. They became visible on day 4, yes. God didn’t “make” the stars on day four. What is meant by “God made two great lights…” is that God made/guided the process for Earth to have a Sun at the correct distance and size, as well as the Moon (which astronomers still have no real explanation for as it’s size relative to Earth make us actually a double planet) and these only became visible in period 4. Why are they only mentioned on day four? Because they only became visible on day 4! From day 2, all aspects of the creation is as viewed from Earth, not from God’s abode anymore.

3. Verse 9-13 it clearly says that earth was created precisely on the 3rd day, how can anyone have Night and day,without creation of earth as night and day, according to established scientific fact depends upon the rotation of the earth.

Easily explained as previously and if my approach is used. See previous posts.

4. Verse, 9-13 earth was created on the 3rd day

Not per my approach.

Because today science tell us that earth was created from the parent body the Sun

As asked, please give me a link to prove that scientists believe the Earth was formed from the Sun. As far as I know the Sun and planetrs were formed from the same gaseous cloud.

[quote]

5. Verse, 11-13 shrubs, vegetation created on the 3rd day and sun 4th day.

Your assumption does not hold water in the approach. Sun only visible on day 4 but did exist before. The statement in verse 11 must also be understood in context. Vegetation are even today being “created” of changing. The start of vegetation was started in period 3 initially as very simple, and finally resulted in all vegetation as we can see it today.

Now God created sun and moon agreed but as indicated verse 17 that God appointed the sun and moon to Give light of its own, which is in contradiction with established science knowledge we have.

The Sun and Moon didn’t start to shine all of a sudden on the 4’th day. They were shining allready BUT, from the view from the Earth, they started to shine from day 4 as they only then became visible. Only then they started to “govern the day and the night”. All as per my approach.

as you agree I agree that Bible was created in 6 long days (era or epoch) and not 24 days though its clearly mentioned, about evening and morning, night and day that its 24 hours.

I do not see 24 hours mentioned in Genesis 1.

but you cant mention day as 24 hours as well as epochs, you cant have both 24 hours and epoch both.

I don’t want both, only epochs.

Now since you have agree upon long days, still 4 scientific errors are yet to be solved.

All solved now with my approach. See above.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

^Agreed, with your points this is my personaly opinion thats too many assumptions. Well I know in the Bible that God is rested the 7th day ad you mentioned it as NO.The original translation that in Hebrews gives a completely different picture.

Well they are other poits i want to touch on, but I feel let it be this way for now. We will keep coming back. Well, no problem let us go onto Mother of All Dialogues for sure.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

^Agreed, with your points this is my personaly opinion thats too many assumptions.

No assumption . Way of interpretation, and the best way to interpret/understand the Bible.

Well I know in the Bible that God is rested the 7th day ad you mentioned it as NO.The original translation that in Hebrews gives a completely different picture.

The original Hebrew word for “rest” is shabath and means to “stop/desist from exertion”. God ended His active involvement in manipulating the way the natural laws of nature would go.

let us go onto Mother of All Dialogues for sure.

Why would it be the Mother? Most what can be said we already touched on. As long as Muslim use the Qur’an as basis, and Christians use the Bible as basis, there will be no concensus on many topics, also the prophet Muhammad and Jesus.

Maybe we should put both scriptures aside and get LightBearer to moderate a dialogue purely on reason and logic …

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

^If we get LB in the topic, all of us will be confused lol. Because its going to be more on rationale argument then faith.lol.
Agree with you, for your last but one paragraph. We have touched most of the points. Well have a nice weekend The Old Man but i feel this is better TOM.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

^If we get LB in the topic, all of us will be confused lol. Because its going to be more on rationale argument then faith.lol. Agree with you, for your last but one paragraph. We have touched most of the points. Well have a nice weekend The Old Man but i feel this is better TOM.

:)

Nothing wrong with rationale. Though rationale can only be streched to the point that the mind can express. I would enjoy everyone being in the next thread.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Agree.

I think there might be less discussion on the prophet Muhammad than Jesus and therefor would prefer us starting off with the prophet Muhammad and finishing with Jesus - if you agree.

Sure no problem however if we go in parallel it would be more enlightening I think. I will open the thread Inshallah.