This is the second last thread in the series of dialogue threads I have opened. Alhamdulillah! I think we have made a lot of progress in understanding each others viewpoints and kept it very decent and positive. As always my request to continue in the same vein.
What we want to discuss here (not debate) is Heaven, Hell and Judgement day.
Simply said, Islam teaches muslims that those whose good deeds outweigh their bad ones are destined for paradise (Heaven) and the unfortunate ones are destined to Hell. The decision for sorting out mankind between heaven and hell will take place on Judgement day. These are all rich topics to discuss especially Judgement day with many prophecies and signs of Judgement day given to us by the Prophet SAW by means of the ahadith and Quran.
Heaven is a blissful place with many of the earthly desires permitted which has been forbidden for muslims here and Hell is the worst of abodes with nothing but misery and torment. There are definitely different criteria governing the assignment to heaven and hell, which Inshallah! I hope will unfold here as the discussion progresses.
Mashallah! All the participants in this series of threads have been wonderful both Muslim and Christian alike. And I request that they keep up their participation. After this thread we will move on to the next and last one about Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH (which will be the definitely be the mother of all threads in this series as far as discussions go, I am not skeptical about that). After we finish, I intend to open one last thread for a debate between Islam and Christianity covering any topic but progressing though them sequentially). I know many peolpe might be itching for a debate, just a little patience and remember debates do not have to be ugly but meaningful. I think all of us have proved we con be meaningful and positive without hurling insults and bashing each other through these series of threads. Subhanallah!
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
USResident, before you tie off the series of discussion after the topic of Jesus and the prophet Muhammad, I would also please wish us to discuss the following topics and the differences between teh two faiths:
Religious dates and days
Religious life - food and beverages, music and art, prayer life, etc.
Sacramental issues - baptism, Hajj and other Islamic required practices, Holy Communion, circumcision, etc.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Christianity teach a Judgement Day where everyone will be judged according to one small booklet.
A number of books detailing everyone's sinful life will be brought but not opened. A small booklet will be opened and everyone whose name is not written in it will be condemned to Hell, the rest to receive everlasting life.
Most Christian denominations believe the Hell is a place of eternal torment. A minority believe it to be a place of distruction and not eternal torment.
Christians generally state they will be going to Heaven but none will be going there! It is clearly stated in the Bible that the saved will live evermore on a new earth with a new heaven and that the present one will be destroyed on the Day of Judgement.
According to the New Testament Jesus will be the judge at the Day of Judgement. A new Jerusalem will come from heaven and Jesus will reign for ever more over the earth and mankind.
Some Christians believe that Jesus will return before the Day of Judgement and reign for 1000 years with those that were martyred for their belief. At the end of this 1000 years of peace, Satan and his cronies will be loosened to lead the people in a revolt against Jesus. They will be destroyed in a huge battle.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
A number of books detailing everyone's sinful life will be brought but not opened. A small booklet will be opened and everyone whose name is not written in it will be condemned to Hell, the rest to receive everlasting life.
So this means, that our records are written for everything we do, small or big. How are these records written according to Christianity.
What is the criteria for getting into this small booklet?
Similar to what we believe, eternal torment.
Why would the other people not be going to heaven?
As you state the book will not be opened then why is there a need for a Judge? My impression from your first statement is that deeds do not matter but it is something else that gets your name in the small booklet, so then what is there left to Judge?
Muslims believe that Jesus PBUH will return before the day of Judgement as well. He will re-institute the teachings of Islam. I do not perfectly recall whether he will rule for 40 years or is it something else, theses are not 40 years as we measure them today but in a certain proportion. There will be an Anti-Christ i.e. Dajjal who Jesus PBUH will defeat and all his followers. After that the era to follow will be full of peace and harmony.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
I think the books are symbolic language. Doubt whether God really need “books”. Might be wrong. You judge from the following quotes:
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand time ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened…In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him… - Daniel 7v9-14
Notice the wording in the Old Testament “son of man” who get “sovereign power” and is worshipped by all in the presence of the Ancient of Days. And then some say that there is no scripture in the Old Testament indicating on Jesus Christ…
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. - Rev.13v8
The Lamb in the new testament is Jesus Christ.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev.20v11-15
Faith in God and a righteous life.
I think the two faiths agree, although some Christian denominations say the Hell fire will destroy all put into it.
Read again my post - I said none will go to heaven. Heaven is the abode of God Almighty and if man can’t see God, how will they be able to be in the presence of God Almighty permanently? Anyway, the Bible teach that ALL saved mankind will live on a new Earth (different Earth/planet/universe) together with Jesus Christ as regent as per Revelation 21:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God…and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he will be there God…He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!”…I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple…Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Your deeds will not count, rather whether your name is written in the book of the righteous. A judge will commit ALL whose names are not written in the Book of Life to Hell. As previously mentioned during this discussion, man can’t earn his salvation as all man is sinfull of nature and even the transgression of one small bit of God’s law/purpose condemns that man to Hell. The deeds are covered by the blood of the Lamb/Jesus, as per Revelation 4-5 (and because of the beautiful way John the Apostle describe it, I will give more detail than necessary):
…At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne cam flashes of lightning,rumblings and peals of thunder…In the centre, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and behind…Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” Whenever the living creatures give glory, honour and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being. And then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no-one in heaven and earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no-one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the centre of the throne…He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb…And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open the seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation…Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!”…and the elders fell down and worshipped.
I did not remember seeing reference in the Qur’an to the Anti-Christ or Dajjal - could you please give me the verse?
Christianity also teach about anti-christs who will corrupt the teaching of Jesus after his ascension but a final AntiChrist at the end of times. He will be assisted by an evil prophet and they will mislead mankind. What does Islam say will the Anti-Christ do?
Where will the peace and harmony that will follow after the AntiChrist be, in heaven or earth? I suppose it will have to be earth because there is always peach and harmony before God Almighty. When will the people go to heaven?
BTW: Revelation, the last book of the New Testament and Bible, is a beautiful book and the only one of which it is written “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it”
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the **Ancient of Days* took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand time ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.....In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him....* - Daniel 7v9-14
Notice the wording in the Old Testament "son of man" who get "sovereign power" and is worshipped by all in the presence of the Ancient of Days. And then some say that there is no scripture in the Old Testament indicating on Jesus Christ....
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. - Rev.13v8
The Lamb in the new testament is Jesus Christ.
The fairytale nature of these verses have left me flabbergasted.:)
Who is the "Ancient of Days" in the verse? The verse clearly states that Jesus (Son of Man) will be given power, surprising to see such conflicting revelation for one who is part of a Triune God.
Haha! Yes some of us still can't see Jesus PBUH in the old Testament even through this verse :) There is too much conflict in the Bible with regards to the historical image of Jesus PBUH versus the divine Jesus that Christendom proclaims.
Faith in God and a righteous life.
I think the two faiths agree, although some Christian denominations say the Hell fire will destroy all put into it.
If blood of the Lamb covers the sins then a righteous life matters not. The very fact that some will go to Hell according to these verses washes away the concept of Atonement in Christianity and the sacrifice of Jesus PBUH did not save those who were not righteous or make it into the book.
*Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God....and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he will be there God....He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"...I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple...Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
*
Can man see God in a dream, surely these verses are the dream of John and he states he saw the Almighty (SWT) and even gives certain details humanizing his existence (Muslims would shudder at this)?
...At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne cam flashes of lightning,rumblings and peals of thunder....In the centre, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and behind....Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." Whenever the living creatures give glory, honour and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being. And then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no-one in heaven and earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no-one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." **Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the centre of the throne...He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb...And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open the seals, **because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God* from every tribe and language and people and nation....Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!"....and the elders fell down and worshipped.
*
The duty of a judge is to impart justice, if those who are not in the book, are to be saved from hell then it is understandible why there is a need for a judge but just to commit them to hell when judgement has already been passed is irrational and illogical. I don't understand the point of the verse w.r.t. to the presence of a Judge?
Christianity also teach about anti-christs who will corrupt the teaching of Jesus after his ascension but a final AntiChrist at the end of times. He will be assisted by an evil prophet and they will mislead mankind. What does Islam say will the Anti-Christ do?
Where will the peace and harmony that will follow after the AntiChrist be, in heaven or earth? I suppose it will have to be earth because there is always peach and harmony before God Almighty. When will the people go to heaven?
BTW: Revelation, the last book of the New Testament and Bible, is a beautiful book and the only one of which it is written "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it"
If you search on Dajjal you will come up with numerous ahadith about Dajjal. So what are the signs before the day of Judgement according to Christianity?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
God, and more specific, God the Father.
One like a son of man clearly refers to Jesus who was frequently refered to as such. (Matt.24v30, 25v31 where Jesus refers to himself as such).
Any other interpretation of the verse?
A righteous life does not save you but is required to show gratitude of your sins taken away. As the apostle James wrote:
What good is it, brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?..faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead…Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do…As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. - James 2v14-26
Prophets get inspirations/messages by means of , inter alia, dreams and visions - I think Islam concur. In these dreams/visions it is possible for these prophets to “see” God, whom they in real live can’t see without dying. The Bible is rife with prophets that had such visions and dreams, Old as well as New Testament. For Judaism and Christianity, God is a personal real God, not someone far away and inaccessible.
Consider a scenario of and some men before a judge. The judge has to decide whether the men has transgressed the law. Evidence is lead showing, although some of the men did some very good humanitarian work, all the men did at some time transgressed the law. The judge HAVE to find all the men guilty of transgressing the law. He HAS to impose the penalty which is jail(Hell). Just before giving his judgement though, a scroll is handed to him indicating that some of the men has received royal pardon. He will then not send these men (even though they are guilty) to jail but only the rest.
Happens everyday and extremely logical.
Thought I did not read about him in the Qur’an! Dajjal being a very important prophecy, why would the prophet not give some indication of him in the Qur’an?
Many prophets and also New Testament writers gave indications. Jesus gave a lot of teaching on it, explaining the suddenness, etc. In Matt.24 we read:
*As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered: "Watch out that no-one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various palces. All these are the beginning of birth-pains. Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and decieve many people…this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations…when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ spoken through the prophet Daniel…false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive the elect…immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the start will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ *(Quote from Isa.13)At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming from the clouds of the sky, with power and glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn this lesson from the fig-tree: As soon as the twigs get tender and its leaves comes out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know it is near, right at the door."
In short, large wars, famine, natural disasters, false prophets and religion, the Anti-Christ, falling away of Christians from the faith, persecution of Christianity, and restoration of the Jews to Israel (fig-tree is symbol of Israel throughout the Bible).
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
So the dream shows them as separate from each other.
Any other interpretation of the verse?
Can son of man be interpreted as Son of God by any chance?
What good is it, brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?....faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead....Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do....As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. - James 2v14-26
Muslims show gratitude by praying and living a life of righteous deeds however the whole concept of having free will to choose between vice and virtue is shattered by the philosophy of Christianity. Deeds don't matter. I still have not seen the criteria for getting in the book. If it is not deeds then what is it that gets you in the book? According to Christianity, will Satan and his followers go to hell?
Real God, the God we worship is the same God you worship. God is one. The difference is we do not worship Prophet Jesus PBUH whereas Christians do.
Happens everyday and extremely logical.
The men who received a royal pardon must have been granted it by someone, who would that be? Obviously someone more higher up than the judge resting their case? And again what was the reason they received such a royal pardon and others did not.
Interesting everytime you say WHY WOULD THE PROPHET NOT GIVE SOME INDICATION OF HIM IN THE QURAN. I think you still are lingering on the Christian mindset here, Muhammad SAW did not write the Quran of his own desire or whim. He just revealed what was revealed to him. Muhammad SAW could not alter even a letter from the Quran of his own will. This is why hadith are important they explain the details of things in the Quran. For instance, Quran mentions judgement day everywhere. The ahadith explain about its portents and signs. This goes back to the argument that the Bible of today includes its exegesis and is not word for word what Jesus PBUH had said. Every muslim knows how to pray however you cannot show from the Quran how to pray. What people need to understand who do not know about hadith is that hadith supplements the Quran.
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered: "Watch out that no-one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various palces. All these are the beginning of birth-pains. Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and decieve many people....this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations....when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation' spoken through the prophet Daniel....false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive the elect....immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the start will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' *(Quote from Isa.13)*At that time the sign **of the Son of Man* will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming from the clouds of the sky, with power and glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn this lesson from the fig-tree: As soon as the twigs get tender and its leaves comes out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know it is near, right at the door."*
In short, large wars, famine, natural disasters, false prophets and religion, the Anti-Christ, falling away of Christians from the faith, persecution of Christianity, and restoration of the Jews to Israel (fig-tree is symbol of Israel throughout the Bible).
It is interesting to see throughout the verse Jesus PBUH refering himself to as Son of Man instead of Son of God. It is also interesting to note that everywhere he contrasts himself with the coming of false prophets and false messiahs but not false Gods. I will Inshallah! post a list of major events prophecied by Prophet Muhammad SAW later on.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Correct
Yes. Some instances Jesus spoke of himself as the Son of Man and other instances as Son of God.
On Satan: When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out and deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle…They marched across the breath of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire cam down from heaven and devoured them. [v]And the devil*, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.* - Rev.20v7-10
Satan will be thrown into Hell.
Accepted. You have to admit though that, the way Christianity understand the function of Jesus, God does become a much closer/familiar/personal Person because one can relate more easier with Him.
Even the way Christians and Jews understand the Holy Spirit makes God just that little bit more personal.
The person is Jesus.
Not nesessary. If someone, for example they are in the dock for owing money, someone can ransom them by bailing them out by paying on their part.
They choose (free will) to not accept the pardon. Jesus as intercessor died for ALL humanity and ALL sinners (even Mary his mother). To partake of the pardon, one needs to accept the pardon.
Yes, you are correct. It really is difficult for a Christian, not considering the Qur’an Holy as a Muslim, to get into this frame of mind. We consider the prophet Muhammad as the originator of the Qur’an because we are not convinced of his authority. We consider him as the writer and author similar as we consider Moses, the prophets and apostles to be the writers and author of what is in the Bible - even if they were inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit.
What are the signs according to Islam?
When Satan tempted Jesus and called him “Son of God”, Jesus did not reprimand him - Matt.4v5-10.
When Nathanael called him “Son of God”, Jesus did not correct him - John.1v49.
When commanded by the high priest to state whether he was the “Son of God”, (Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God - Matt.26v63) Jesus said, “Yes, it is as you say, Jesus replied”.
When discussing his mission with Nicodemus, Jesus said: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perich but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. - John.3v16-18
In above teaching, Jesus also explained HOW to be saved. You see, from from the scriptures Christians have in the Bible (Old and New Testament) it is an absolute that Jesus is not a mere prophet. Sure, if one disregards the Bible as a whole (and the testimonies of those that lived with Jesus), then one can start to doubt - a Christian can’t. It is just too clear and absolute.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
As I can see from the discussion thus far, both Islam and Christianity have the same view that there will be a Day of Judgement. Who will be the judge and what will be the criteria differ though.
It also seems as if both the religions have the same view on the Hell.
A major difference is the way the two faiths perceive Heaven or the place where the "saved/righteous" will be after the Day of Judgement.
Christianity believes that they will live for ever on a new Earth (Christians actually are ignorant on this point in general) with Jesus who will reign as God's representative or God's physical presence. They will mainly worship God and NOT be having families, etc.
What I can deduce from the Qur'an, is different and would like to discuss it further.
The righteous will go to a place called heaven - what and where it is I don't know?
There the righteous will be able to indulge in forbidden/sinful acts such as alcohol and multiple sexual partners?
It is unclear what the function of the male youths mentioned in the Qur'an is?
I don't seem to see any specific rewards the women will receive?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Would you ever consider it was Jesus PBUH intent to confuse the people?
So how do fallen angels or Satans followers achieve Salvation according to Chrsitianity?
On the contrary almost every respected Christian theologian or writer has said, avoid questioning it because it is best left to be understood as a mystery or illogical. In Islam the basic for Taqwa or Piety is the amount of God fearing you have in you meaning the more closer you get to God the more you realize he is closer to you than you can imagine by virtue of his knowledge about you, hidden or exposed. We are Allah SWT personal belongings as opposed to him being our own personal God. See how words can taint the very meaning of what is followed from it or perceived from it.
I think the discussion should get quite interesting from here. Let me ask this question, what is the key to Salvation in Christianity? Or how do we achieve salvation in Christianity?
A short list of major signs would:
1 - Emergence of Mehdi
2 - Coming of Dajjal
3 - Descent of Jesus PBUH
4 - Gog Magoog
5 - Emergence of the beast
6 - Sun rising in the west
These are not in chronological order. You can read further details of these from Ibn Kathir, here is the link to his book:
**1 - Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. **
**2 - After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. **
**3 - The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” **
**4 - Jesus answered, “It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” ****5 - Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. **
**6 - “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: **
**” 'He will command his angels concerning you, **
**and they will lift you up in their hands, **
**so that you will not strike your foot against a stone." **
**7 - Jesus answered him, “It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” **
**8 - Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. **
**9 - “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” **
**10 - Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” **11 - Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
If you would read through the verses it is clear that Satan was questioning Jesus PBUH whether he is the Son of God because if he was the things Satan asked or challenged him to do, would not affect him. Not the meaning you have portrayed. In fact verse 7, emphasizes Jesus PBUH unsure of what will happen should he do what Satan asks of him, saying we should not put God to the test.
I will expand a little further in my next post when we discuss atonement, which I have asked about in this post or what does salvation depend on according to Christianity.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
It also seems as if both the religions have the same view on the Hell.
A major difference is the way the two faiths perceive Heaven or the place where the "saved/righteous" will be after the Day of Judgement.
Christianity believes that they will live for ever on a new Earth (Christians actually are ignorant on this point in general) with Jesus who will reign as God's representative or God's physical presence. They will mainly worship God and NOT be having families, etc.
What I can deduce from the Qur'an, is different and would like to discuss it further.
The righteous will go to a place called heaven - what and where it is I don't know?
There the righteous will be able to indulge in forbidden/sinful acts such as alcohol and multiple sexual partners?
It is unclear what the function of the male youths mentioned in the Qur'an is?
I don't seem to see any specific rewards the women will receive?
Can the above be expanded or explained, please?
It would help if references were provided to the Quranic verses or ahadith you have based these questions upon.
Generally, forbidden acts (only on earth while we have a physical body here). Most of these representations are symbolic but many take them literally as well most of all non-muslims when debating them. Usually, alcoholism and women are lusts that people crave while in this earthly life. Some think there is no pleasure beyond these things and in fact you can see especially in the west how emphasis there is on sex and getting high or dosed off. Its like paradise for such people how indulge in these things. The Quranic message has used these symbolically if not literally to get a point across to people who run after such earthly lusts and luxury that they will get this and better in the next life if you would avoid these things in this life for a reward in the next life. Now the nature of these things will not be the same as they are in this world i.e. carnal pleasure. It will be one of spiritual beings and how that would feel I honestly do not have an answer because its something to which there is no human parallel.
For instance, the alochol you consumer in this world intoxicates you whereas according to Islam, thw wine that will be served to those in paradise will be free of intoxication and other harmful effects, things are not as they seem, they are symbolic. Now as for hoors or wives, it does not go to describe what kind of pleasure they will provide, mostly what is mentioned about them is their beauty which pleases the eye, no mention of sex and other vulgarities. These are extrapolated explanations others come up with to demean these aspects (not blaming you but unless I explain it you the same conception will linger in your mind).
Male youths will probably be servants or youths who are attending to your needs a servant does in this life. What were you thinking?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
No. Everyone understand what he meant.
They can’t. They choose once for all eternity. They were in the presence og God and choose to oppose him.
ANY theologian or writer that doubts the Holy Spirit exist as part of the Tr-une God or do not know the Holy Spirits attributes and workings are no scholar. I have never heard of a reputable scholar stating what you have stated.
Can we discuss it as the last topic as requested? Original sin is the “why” and salvation is the “how”. They belong together and are important enough to warant a discussion on their own.
I have just skimmed through some parts and will spend some more time reading all later. Could I ask you to please give short answers to the folowing questions on the signs below?
One quote from teh book I would like more explanation on:
“The 'Abd Allah, who was widely-read, said, ‘I think that the first to
happen will be the rising of the sun from the West. Every time it sets, it
goes beneath the Throne, prostrates itself, and seeks permission to rise
again. A time will come when three times it will seek permission and will
receive no reply, until, when part of the night has passed and it realises
that even if it were given permission, it would not be able to rise on
time, it will say: “O my Lord, how far the rising-point is from me! What
can I do for the people now?” Then it will seek permission to go back, and
it will be told: ‘Rise from where you are now’ - and it will rise from the
West’”
Can one believe this as truth with the sun being portrayed as a person? It might be that the people then believed that the sun revolve around the earth, we know better now. Will the whole universe change direction? How will this event happen?
What is the Mehdi?
The Dajjal is the Anti-Christ? What does Islam teach of him?
What does Islam teach about him?
Not correct. Both KNEW Jesus is the Son of God and therefor Satan used the expression. It is because of the fact that both knew it to be true that Satan used the expression. If Jesus was the Son of God, then he should be able to do certain things. Jesus, knowing himself to be the Son of God, also know the issue is not whether he is the Son of God but a temptation from Satan to do the exact same sin Satan did. Jesus, accepting the expression to be true, then answered Satan as per what he asked him to do. You see, the easy thing would be for Jesus to PROVE that he is the Son of God. Knowing that he is and knowing that Satan knows it, he refused but answered Satan’s quotes with other quotes from the Bible. No reason to prove what both KNEW.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
My pardon. I did not base my questions on any ahadith but fromwhat has transpired in the discussion thus far. I thought you would know the references from the Qur’an but will post them.
Exactly what I have seen in discussions here. Thanks for explaining. So the righteous will only look and not touch? Did look VERY suspect when I read it the first time .
With the male part being given women, thought the women would be given youths to please them. Also since what is sin now not being sin there, that homosequality would be condoned there. My mistake.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
something similar to this: Quran 14:48 On the day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty,
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Somewhat similar ARM however you read through OldMans responses it comes across as earth will be created again and that is where those achieving salvation according to Christianity will spend eternity unlike paradise, which muslims believe to be the final abode of the righteous. It appears according to Christianity, paradise or heaven is the abode of God, which is why we can't live there.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Everyones understanding cannot be attributed to the words spoken by Jesus PBUH though. The difference between the phrases "Son of man" and "Son of God" are worlds apart. If you isolate your look at them there is no way you can say they both mean the same thing other than if you are just adamant to ignore whatever thoughts you might have that oppose your accepted thought. This is something I have always found puzzling, Christians tend to reky more on their Church developed understanding that what is written in the Bible.
CS Lewis is the famour write of "Mere Christianity" and his thoughts are inline with mainstream Christianity:
[FONT='High Tower Text']****
*"reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect. Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed.[C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (New York: HarperCollins Edition 2001), p. 41] *
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
CS Lewis is the famour write of "Mere Christianity" and his thoughts are inline with mainstream Christianity:
[FONT='High Tower Text']
*"reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect. Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed.[C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (New York: HarperCollins Edition 2001), p. 41] *
Dang it, my post got corrupted. Will have to reply again.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Heaven, Hell & Jdugement day) - Islam and Christianity
Everyones understanding cannot be attributed to the words spoken by Jesus PBUH though. The difference between the phrases "Son of man" and "Son of God" are worlds apart. If you isolate your look at them there is no way you can say they both mean the same thing other than if you are just adamant to ignore whatever thoughts you might have that oppose your accepted thought. This is something I have always found puzzling, Christians tend to reky more on their Church developed understanding that what is written in the Bible.
Surely we can.
"The 'Abd Allah, who was widely-read, said, 'I think that the first tohappen will be the rising of the sun from the West. Every time it sets, itgoes beneath the Throne, prostrates itself, and seeks permission to riseagain. A time will come when three times it will seek permission and willreceive no reply, until, when part of the night has passed and it realisesthat even if it were given permission, it would not be able to rise ontime, it will say: "O my Lord, how far the rising-point is from me! Whatcan I do for the people now?" Then it will seek permission to go back, andit will be told: 'Rise from where you are now' - and it will rise from theWest'"
Can one believe this as truth with the sun being portrayed as a person? It might be that the people then believed that the sun revolve around the earth, we know better now. Will the whole universe change direction? How will this event happen?
CW Lewis is a well-respected Christian writer, his thoughts are inline with mainstream Christianity:
".., reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect. Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."[C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (New York: HarperCollins Edition 2001), p. 41]
The Catholic encyclopedia says about Trinity:
A dogma so mysterious presupposes a divine revelation. [1912, Vol.15, p.47]
Mahdi will be the leader of the muslim leader before Jesus PBUH returns. He will be a righteous leader.
Dajjal will be accompanied with many miracles and powers by the permission of Allah SWT. Dajjal is regarded as the worst of fitnahs or trials. There is somewhat vague description of his physical appearance in ahadith and some of the things he is capable of. He will be killed by Jesus PBUH.
.