Intelligent Design...

Re: Intelligent Design...

I don't agree with your above statement. Until the beginning of 20th century, there was hardly any American contribution to science and technology. The only American scientist of some stature in the last 200 years (18th and 19th century) was Benjamin Franklin. All the scientific, mathematical and technology development happened in western Europe (It is unfortunate that two world wars distroyed all the development in western Europe and gave advantage to Americans). Americans benefitted immensely from the fundamental scientific research in western Europe in the past (like Japanese, Koreans and Taiwanese are benefitting today without contributing much to fundamental scientific development). It is mostly the brain drain from Europe and elsewhere which helped Americans. Whenever I went to America, I was horrified to read the daily news papers with such a substandard editorials and news. Average Americans don't know much about outside world. Local Indian newspapers maintain far higher quality than their American counterparts.

America can be compared to a super rich man with little intellectual capacity, hiring top experts from everywhere. Just imagine, govt of India spends huge amount of money to train the best brains in the country in Indian Institute of Technology. And then what happens. More than 90% of them fly to America and Americans freely get the best brains without spending a penny. This brain drain is not just the Indian problem. It's true for Britain (Brain drain was first coined when lot of top british brains started living for America during the last century) and many other countries.

Re: Intelligent Design...


I would love to see data which shows the percentage of home bread american scientist., ie second generation americans.
Atleast in my field more than 60% of research is in the european union ie based on volume of papers being published in peer reviewed journals.
America benefited tremendously from the second world war, most of the german faculties left hitlar germany to US.
There are certain things America is good at, ie to package a given invention and selling it. Their universities are also the best one main reason being that the faculties have little say in the administration, they can basicaly concentrate on reasearch and lleave the administration with the beurocracy. In european institution this is definitely opposite.

Re: Intelligent Design...

Well! Well! Well! This is exactly the type of behaviour I was writing about. To make my point a bit clear, I am not trying to bring in any religious or creationist thinking into the discussion. The current classification of DNA is based on our current understanding of DNA structure (which is little). It is not based on a universal truth but based on current understanding. As we are understanding the structure of DNA better, we are able to observe more and more difference. What we might discover in a quarter of century may give rise to many more classifications. There are very strong indications of the evolution process but there are equally strong questions which still need to be answered.

If you have studied a bit about evolution, you might have come across how the evolution theory itself is evolving because there were not enough proof to justify certain evolutionary techniques.

At the end of the day, it is always better to know both sides of the picture and be impartial enough to see where improvements need to be made.

If Darwin himself was willing to look on both the sides, why can't others.

"I have asked myself whether I may not have devoted my life to a fantasy." "I...am ready to cry with vexation at my blindness and presumption." Charles Darwin.

Re: Intelligent Design...

Racist, biased and narrow-minded approach at the best. Regardless of how many American scientists are participating in research, the most important thing the Americans did for science is to develope an environment where science and technology can be freely researched. We can easily see the main hub of scientific activity in the world is the U.S., regardless of how many original American scientists are in that research.

What is there to whine about here? A good deal of European research was based on the research of the Muslim scientists from the past. What is the point in reinventing the wheel? This is typical nonsensical blabbering of the Europeans. Stop being jealous.

Most Indian newspapers and magazines are filled with the gossip of Bollywood and then most of the rest is filled with the praise of the cricketers. Americans produce all sorts of publications. May be you should look for more than just TV Guide and Playboy.

What IIT spends on its students is just a fraction of what an average American univeristy spends on its students. Most of the IIT students join American research groups only after post-graduating from American universities and not after graduating from IIT. Please try to look beyond the bias.

Re: Intelligent Design…

You’re making a logical mistake here (again): basically you are saying that because prions are less well understood we should discard them and focus on things we do understand? But of course then it will all support your theory/arguments. If you neglect that which goes against your theory, all that you are left with is ‘proof’ for your theory (evolution, DNA as basis of life etc etc).
I’d rather say that the fact that we cannot explain or understand prions based on our theory of evolution/DNA, proofs that this theory is flawed or at least incomplete :wink: and therefore, this shows that there is more to it than we can currently theorize. Thus, we should not take the evolution theory to be true/absolute.

Re: Intelligent Design…

prions act differently than poisons. These proteins/prions are present in everyone. However, because of some trigger (e.g. by ingesting the ‘bad’ prion via meat) these proteins start aggregating and cause severe damage in the brain.

Re: Intelligent Design...

Any protein can be made to aggregate and make fibrils in certain condition. Changing the pH is one possible scenario. As such they are toxic then.

Re: Intelligent Design...

^but in those instances there is a clear external trigger for that. For prions it is not known if such trigger exists. They only start aggregating if a person is infected with one that is already in the aggregated shape. And even then it can take upto 40 years for this to occur.

and even if there are similarities between prions and other poisons, why do such diseases show a disease pattern that is very similar to only infectious diseases and other poisons do not?

Re: Intelligent Design...

We should look on both sides, but we cannot teach our children ID as science subject. Teach it as philosophy or religion. In the mean time get more proof, do some research and then when there is enough evidence teach it as science.

Re: Intelligent Design...

no it was NOT this way i intended my argument...

i'm not saying prions are not important, i'm only saying they are not relevant to anaylisis of relations within DNA based life, and that's why i exclude from this approach the RNA based viruses, and also other DNA viruses, to concentrate only on all life forms with complete cells...and frankly the make up a huge biomass!
and also human and monkeys are far far different from this prions, viruses life forms....

furthermore most life is based on DNA, how could a little tiny prion change the history of DNA based life?
sure it creates newer opportunities to ponder the ultimate origins of life, before DNA, but how can prions explain why human have fish genes, or a huge closeness to apes, culturally speaking?

so far no one has explained why human have branchia and tail genes that express only in maternal womb ,

please do provide a better theory linking all existing proofs in a more satisfactory way, in absence thereof, evolution is the least wrong explanation

Re: Intelligent Design...


it is not known, and that's exactly the biggest failure of modern medicine!(i'll explain):

there is somthing we are missing about human body: the ability cells comunicate with each other (no i'm ont talking about hormones or nervous signals), what makes them send messages to each other that lead to cancer formation OR resorbtion? still a mystery

we don't know how embryogenesis is trigerre internally..otherwise we would be able to developp a human from any cell without the need for ovule! but what is this coktail in ovule that can triggers the experssion/silence of genes in some cells and not others, at some time and not others? where do the biological clock tick to get 9 months construction work and very few delays?
still mystery...

what makes prions developp and infect brains? or NOT,
frankly, thousands of people ate mad cows, and so far only very few people had the desease, it is a mystery what triggers prions to posper in brain....just like it is a mystery why cancer cells prosper in some bodies, but not in others...

very recent reasearch has just made it to light that cells interactions within different human parts were playing a role in cancer resorbtion/developpment, by it's too early to bring conlcusions...

we can only wonder, why some drugs affect some people, and not others?

the mystery of all the interactions in a human body are far too complex to be modelised, so we can only try to study them one by one, or two by two....by not thousand with thousand!

Re: Intelligent Design...

I agree. I did not mean the other side to be ID. I mean to say the complications with the theory.

Re: Intelligent Design...

Most people beleive in intelligent design, of course it should be justified as a valid beleif. Otherwise the entire education system will seem like an atheist making factory and kids will think they have to be atheist in order to be really educated.

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When we all know for a fact that God exists, why try to hold off that beleif until science catches up? Perhaps they find some scientific proof long after we all die. Or perhaps it will become clear to them on the Day of Judgement.

Re: Intelligent Design…

you’re absolutely right, but I think this is not the main point of discussion.

We were talking about intelligent design as foundation of all life, not only DNA based-life. The theory of evolution is restricted to DNA-based life and therefore, as per your definition, it won’t explain all life: intelligent design does.
Moreover, evolution theory is not even the least wrong explanation. Even for evolution theory restricted to DNA-based life, you need numerous of assumptions to explain everything. However, for intelligent design you only need one assumption (the existing of a allmighty being), and for most people that even is not an assumption. Therefore, intelligent design is the least wrong theory!

As for all the examples you gave about embryology: intelligent design can explain them as well: in the most simplest of answers: God wanted it that way.(I have a more elaborate answer to this question, but it will be outside the scope of this discussion to post it all)

Re: Intelligent Design…

I couldn’t have said it better myself :k:
And I think you’ll agree that your post fits my opinion that the evolution theory is very restricted. There is more than meets the eye. Again, intelligent design can provide an easy answer to all these questions (see above). But do note, this doesn’t mean science should be stopped: on the contrary, this should be a trigger to perform even more science, and make tools (theories) to explain what you see; however, don’t see those theories as absolute, because there will always be observations you cannot explain

Re: Intelligent Design...

The existence of God has neither been proven nor disproven. Science is completely silent about this subject. Those who support Darwin's evolution theory do not necessarily mean to be aeithist. The topic of existence of GOD is beyond the scope of this subject.

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Yes but still it begs the question how is it more important than a DNA or RNA. I can understand viral rna or dna as life form but how can a single prion protein act as a life form. Is that because it can replicate and can form aggregates and blocks certain cells. Even if it is then why not this be a part of evolution.

Re: Intelligent Design...


your rethoric is nice but you don't see science as me, to me science is a tool for mankind, scientific knowledge is used to built new technologies to facilitate our lives, "go wanted it that way" will NEVER lead to any technological discoveries...while theories CAN boost sciences and lead to innovation.
"God want it that way"is not a scientifical explanation, because you can not reproduce any little bit of that theory...nothing can be proved/unproved, it is only food for brain, and nothing more.

Re: Intelligent Design…

god did not make me intelligent to satisfy myself with “easy” answers! i have a brain and i use it to try to understand that the full complexity of life is well beyond my intelligence! if an easy answer is answerable for life complexity then we can fire all scientists and go back to caves and stone hunting mamoth. life is easy, be cool, no need for any efforts!