Intelligent Design...

“The idea that an intelligent designer played a role in some aspect of the evolution of life on earth, usually the origin of life itself. Generally, a thinly disguised version of scientific creationism.” (Copied form web)

In recent years Intelligent Design has become a topic of controversy. There is a growing debate in the US educational institutions about the topic. Some religious groups (mostly catholic) are of the view that this subject should be taught in schools as a science.
There was a case in Dover which was ruled against the proponents of the Intelligent Desing.

Should it be taught as a science subject in schools?
What do you think about the idea of Intelligent Design?

Re: Intelligent Design...

it's not science

should balck magic be also taught in schools?

Re: Intelligent Design...

^if being science is a criterion of what is taught at school, then 90% of all things won't be taught, including evolution theory

Re: Intelligent Design...

I agree, but the question is should it be taught as a science subject. If its taught as religion or philosophy then there is no controversy.

Re: Intelligent Design...


and that would be more appropriate, it's not science and trying to make kids believe it is, would be brainwashing.

Nescio, sciences are not the only taught subjects at school, but no one told me mythology classes were science classes

Re: Intelligent Design...

^well, if we want to twist the argument this way: what's the distinction between science and non-science? what we call mythology might as well be based on empirism and observation followed by personal interpretation: as far as I know that's the definition of science ;)

Re: Intelligent Design…

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol200512020813.asp

above is a very long but very good article on muslims and intelligent design. please take the time to read it, it is worthwhile.

Re: Intelligent Design...

Its difficult to agree on the definition of science itself, but googling gave me this one which I agreed to somewhat -
"Systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied."

As an example - When I say that a apple from a tree falls on the ground. This is not science.
But when I say apple from a tree falls on the ground because of the gravitational pull between the apple and earth then it is science.

Or when I say there were Saber tooth tigers in the ancient times then it is not science, but when I say there were Saber Tooth Tigers in prehistoric times and proove it with some evidence then it is science.

Since intelligent design does not show evidence of anything nor it prooves anything by theoritical formula so I believe it should not be taught as science in schools. Although I do believe it is an interesting subject, but definitely not science.

There are proofs that evolution happens. We have seen this evolutions in case of Bird Flu.

Re: Intelligent Design...

let's be carefull not to confuse the object of study, and the method of study!

mythology as an object is a collection, of myths, ie supernatural stories invented during ancient time (antiquity) and transmitted orally from generation to generation til some people put them down so that we have traces of these myths.

mythology, is the core of some religion, and for those people who BELIEVE in those religion, this stories are "real" ie they do narrate events and people who actually existed.

BUT most historians and archeologues, those who apply scientific methods to study mythology can prove this myths are inventions that might have some light actual ground, but they are mostly not real!

so mythology as an object is not a science, because events and people are fictious ,
myths are not scientifical history (they are religion and religion is not science, because it is based on faith not on emprical observation and logic)
but mythology as a methodical study of those texts is a science.

Re: Intelligent Design...


good points ;)

Re: Intelligent Design...

Only if you people will ponder you will find support for theory of evolution in quran, but only if you minus darwinism.

Anybeing from dot point, murky water coming to existance is possible, supported and accepted. A perfect evolution process.

But humans were monkeys LOL! doesnot fit common sense. Yet all the evidence goes against it.

cheers!

Re: Intelligent Design...

I hope that you know, what induction is, and physical sciences are based on induction, And further that the knowledge which is based on induction can be proved as wrong by possible empirical data. So your claim that Quran contains any science is actually a claim that Quran isn't much certain and can possibly be shown as wrong by having some empirical data.

If it is possible that something can be wrong, then it means that, that specific thing is not certain. On that rule if someone says there is any science in Quran, He is actually saying that Quran isn't certain.

Re: Intelligent Design...

[quote]
I hope that you know, what induction is, and physical sciences are based on induction, And further that the knowledge which is based on induction can be proved as wrong by possible empirical data.
[/quote]

This is irrelevant

[quote]
So your claim that Quran contains any science is actually a claim that Quran isn't much certain and can possibly be shown as wrong by having some empirical data.
[/quote]

You are follwing conjecture. I never claimed 'quran contains any science'. I repeat *Only if you people will ponder you will find support for theory of evolution in quran.' *

cheers!

Re: Intelligent Design...


you are lying, you are talking about finding support for evolution theory, which is science, in quran, and then says you never claimed quran contained science, who do you want to fool?

[quote]
But humans were monkeys LOL! doesnot fit common sense.
[/quote]

chimpanzee and humans have 99% genes in common, what is your common sense saying about it?

monkeys are the only animals except human, who can learn techniques to extract food or process food (with a straw for honey, with stones to break some hard shells, washing vegetables at sea...) and transmit it from mother to child which leads to cultural differences between tribes, what your common sense does say about it?

humans are primate like monkeys, what is your common sense saying about it?

all humans, including you and me do fart, $hit, drink water, eat plants and other animals, have sex to reproduce, give birth to young ones (for females), breastfeed them (females only), get sickness and die, all of this is striclty the same for all mammals (except some diet variations), what is your common sense saying about it?

genes are transmitted from generation to generation, and humans have genes of fishes, which leads to branchia formation in foetus , genes of reptiles, which leads to tail formation in foetus, so at early stages of foetus developpement our ancestors gene expression is so strong that it is hard to see the differences btw a baby frog, chicken, monkey or a human...of course evolution takes its course and more modern genes expression leads to differenciation so that finally a human baby is diferent than other animals, each being also diferent from each other...
what is your commmon sense saying about that?

remeneber nothing is impossible for Allah, neither creation, neither evolution! cheers

Re: Intelligent Design...

Hello Parissenoor,

Instead of questioning, you are being sarcastic and abusive. That shows you have no patients, and no respect for other views.

Sorry but I will not discuss this anymore with you.

Re: Intelligent Design...

......The claim of 98% similarity between chimpanzees and humans is not only deceptive and misleading, but also scientifically incorrect. Today, scientists are finding more and more differences in DNA from humans and chimps. For instance, a 2002 research study proved that human DNA was at least 5% different from chimpanzees—and that number probably will continue to grow as we learn all of the details about human DNA (Britten, 2002).

......It appears that only about 1.5% of the human genome consists of genes, which code for proteins. These genes are clustered in small regions that contain sizable amounts of “non-coding” DNA (frequently referred to as “junk DNA”) between the clusters. The function of these non-coding regions is only now being determined. These findings indicate that even if all of the human genes were different from those of a chimpanzee, the DNA still could be 98.5 percent similar if the “junk” DNA of humans and chimpanzees were identical.

Jonathan Marks, (department of anthropology, University of California, Berkeley) has pointed out the often-overlooked problem with this “similarity” line of thinking. Because DNA is a linear array of those four bases—A,G,C, and T—only four possibilities exist at any specific point in a DNA sequence. The laws of chance tell us that two random sequences from species that have no ancestry in common will match at about one in every four sites. Thus even two unrelated DNA sequences will be 25 percent identical, not 0 percent identical (2000, p. B-7).Therefore a human and any earthly DNA-based life form must be at least 25% identical. Would it be correct, then, to state that daffodils are “one-quarter human”? The idea that a flower is one-quarter human is neither profound nor enlightening; it is outlandishly ridiculous! There is hardly any biological comparison that could be conducted that would make daffodils human—except perhaps DNA. Marks went on to concede: Moreover, the genetic comparison is misleading because it ignores qualitative differences among genomes.... Thus, even among such close relatives as human and chimpanzee, we find that the chimp’s genome is estimated to be about 10 percent larger than the human’s; that one human chromosome contains a fusion of two small chimpanzee chromosomes; and that the tips of each chimpanzee chromosome contain a DNA sequence that is not present in humans **(B-7, emp. added).The truth is, if we consider the absolute amount of genetic material when comparing primates and humans, the 1-2% difference in DNA represents approximately 80 million different nucleotides **(compared to the 3-4 billion nucleotides that make up the entire human genome). To help make this number understandable, consider the fact that if evolutionists had to pay you one penny for every nucleotide in that 1-2% difference between the human and the chimp, you would walk away with $800,000. Given those proportions, 1-2% does not appear so small, does it?

Re: Intelligent Design…

I disagree if you say that hsitorians can prove myths wrong by applying their scientific methods. First of all, who says that the (scientific) methods used by the historians are the criteria by which another theory has to be proved/disproved? That’s wrong, because of course the ‘scientific’ methods will be biased towards proving the historians right and the myths wrong. After all, these methods have been designed to prove the historians right. By the same token, if you apply the methods used by the priests, they will show that the scientific theories are wrong. In the end, the question revolves around what tool you use to prove universal truth. Certainly, it’s not the scientific methods.

After all, both ‘science’ and ‘myths’ have come to being by the same process: Make observations in the world around you and build a theory around it, which you try to prove by the tools you design! A historian will design his tools in such a way that they agree with his theory. similarly a priest will design his tools so that they agree with his theory/myths. If a historian will apply his tools to the priest’s theory (=myth) he will prove him wrong, BUT similarly if the priest applies his tools to the scientific theory, that will be proved wrong.

moreover:
so mythology as an object is not a science, because events and people are fictious ,
myths are not scientifical history (they are religion and religion is not science, because it is based on faith not on emprical observation and logic)

This is totally wrong. Myths are also based on observation and logic: be it different observations and logic than that we are accustomed to; but that doesn’t mean that their observation and logic is wrong. On the contrary, it is as valid as ours! By the same token, persons who ‘believe’ in myths can say our theories are wrong and illogical: they can mock us for believing (!) our theories and observations.

Re: Intelligent Design...

[quote=WitchDr]
......The claim of 98% similarity between chimpanzees and humans is not only deceptive and misleading, but also scientifically incorrect. Today, scientists are finding more and more differences in DNA from humans and chimps. For instance, a 2002 research study proved that human DNA was at least 5% different from chimpanzees—and that number probably will continue to grow as we learn all of the details about human DNA (Britten, 2002).

......It appears that only about 1.5% of the human genome consists of genes, which code for proteins. These genes are clustered in small regions that contain sizable amounts of “non-coding” DNA (frequently referred to as “junk DNA”) between the clusters. The function of these non-coding regions is only now being determined. These findings indicate that even if all of the human genes were different from those of a chimpanzee, the DNA still could be 98.5 percent similar if the “junk” DNA of humans and chimpanzees were identical.

junk DNA is very negatice term used by scientists who felt their pride threatened by their ignorance of this DNA functiun, but as science progress it appears that this DNA could be involved in the "mysterious" processes, such as the expression or the inhibition of some genes, which is a VERY important process for all musticellular organims as it allows the formation of differentiate parts of the body/plant and is also the source of one of our most deadfull desease: cancer!

Jonathan Marks, (department of anthropology, University of California, Berkeley) has pointed out the often-overlooked problem with this “similarity” line of thinking.Because DNA is a linear array of those four bases—A,G,C, and T—only four possibilities exist at any specific point in a DNA sequence. The laws of chance tell us that two random sequences from species that have no ancestry in common will match at about one in every four sites. Thus even two unrelated DNA sequences will be 25 percent identical, not 0 percent identical (2000, p. B-7).Therefore a human and any earthly DNA-based life form must be at least 25% identical. Would it be correct, then, to state that daffodils are “one-quarter human”?** The idea that a flower is one-quarter human is neither profound nor enlightening; it is outlandishly ridiculous! **
well this argument is twisted as it is going opposite to logic, as human is a recent creature (200 000 years at most for homo sapiens) compare to plants who appeared hundreds of millions years ago in the fossil record, thinking plants could be "humans" is exaclty ridiculous, but no serious evolutionist would do that. Evolutionists do place plants and humans are descents from primitive bacteria who hadve a cell containing DNA included in a core, these are called eubacterias. So they do relate plants and animals and humans, but never pretend that plants are humans.

There is hardly any biological comparison that could be conducted that would make daffodils human—except perhaps DNA. Marks went on to concede:Moreover, the genetic comparison is misleading because it ignores qualitative differences among genomes.... Thus, even among such close relatives as human and chimpanzee, we find that the chimp’s genome is estimated to be about 10 percent larger than the human’s; that one human chromosome contains a fusion of two small chimpanzee chromosomes; and that the tips of each chimpanzee chromosome contain a DNA sequence that is not present in humans **(B-7, emp. added).The truth is, if we consider the absolute amount of genetic material when comparing primates and humans, the 1-2% difference in DNA represents approximately 80 million different nucleotides (compared to the 3-4 billion nucleotides that make up the entire human genome). To help make this number understandable, consider the fact that if evolutionists had to pay you one penny for every nucleotide in that 1-2% difference between the human and the chimp, you would walk away with $800,000. Given those proportions, 1-2% does not appear so small, does it?
well they do also underline that this difference related to the rate of mutations in genomes and the speed of trnsmission of mutations to children, make the first common ancestor between human and chimpanzee around 5 million years ago. So it gives a real relativity to the claim of some opponents who think evolutionists says humans are chimps, while we do claim they have evolved differently from 5 milions years at most ( they believe some gene exchanges can have occured during 5 to 8 million years ago), while we humans, have existed around 200,000 years, which means
4% of that time only** in our modern form , homo sapiens

(i am not counting homo ergaster here, as some might oppose me that they do look too much like apes)
/quote

Re: Intelligent Design...


**
It is a very nice point made, basically the result of a demonstration depends on the method used! true**
is science more or less trustable to prove a point?
let me give you an example
some historians have said that it is impossible for an antique body recovered to be of chinese blood because there were none at the time, but a myth claim this old emperor recovered in the middle of the eurasia is one, so a scientists examine the DNA found on the body, and compare with samples from various ethni and he found he was not chinese. that is ok for the historian, not for the myths.
so who do you trust the most?
imagine you have only one child and he has leukemia, chinese myth tells you to go to some mountains in south china and meet some "holy man" who will cure your child with poems according to some myths. Or will you trust the archaeologists who analysed your DNA, he's a friend, and told you you can save your child with a marrowbone transplantation?

another example would be rain dance from native americans compare to spreading silver nucleus in a cloud to bring rain, what would you trsut more as farmer whose life depends on a fertile field?

of course myths are cheaper, and it depends on the price you can afford to get a result , it is well known that to get better quality the price is higher. but cheap can also be satisfying, it is personal choice after all.

Re: Intelligent Design...

^parissenoor, I like the examples you give. But they again prove my point: I'm sure the examples you gave, you selected them carefully so they fit your hypothesis.

conversely, what about the following examples:

suppose someone from the bushes comes here and his blood pressure is measured which is too high: do you think he will agree with the western doc to start taking 2/3 drugs each day/3 times a day for the rest of his life, because it will reduce his chance of a stroke over 20 years by 10%?

If you think about it, it's totally crazy: only 10%!!!! That means that most people who take the drug won't even benefit from it: basically you're taking the drug so that someone else among the group of drug-users doesn't suffer a stroke.

Of course that person won't agree. He will surely feel better by just going to some witch-doctor who gives him some holy medicine, if he feels anything at all from his high blood pressure.

Moreover, coming back to your DNA example: how can you conclude that the DNA tests conclusively say he's not the chinese emperor? You can't! All you can say is that given the test results and given the theory about DNA, these data suggest he's not the emperor. Likewise, the tests that the mythologist will use: they will show he is the emperor. it just depends which one you want to follow: Of course he are so accustomed to our methods, that we hold them universaly true: but the myhtologist will hold his equally dear.