Snowdrop, you missed the entire point.
:)
First of all, we are not making any judgements from ourselves nor we're using our logic and rationale for this statement about a disease in disbeliever's heart, those words are God's words who is the Knower of the hearts.
And second of all, if you believe that this is the case with people who believe in God then that's fine but we have proof for what we say. Have you got any written proof for what you say? (written as in scientific)
Gina~
Hareem01 quoted from Surah Tawbah where the ayahs talk about agnostics. You're quoting from Surah Baqarah where ayat talk about hypocrites.
Ayah 256 means that we should not force anyone to become muslim, I think no one is forcing you or queer to become muslim. If you feel that you're being forced then feel free to point out.
I dont mean to take sides here, but to someone who doesn't believe in god, god's word and your own judgement is the same. As for the written proof, queer is assuming a neutral position where one does not believe in god and needs proof to be convinced that there is a god. Those who believe in god need no written proof that god does not exist.
In my opinion, the problem here is not of convincing each other whether god exists or not. This debate dates back to where the history begins and I don't see this debate ending in this thread or forum either. It is more about whether or not to point fingers at someone who does not believe in god. And the point which I made earlier was that we are not examples of perfect muslims/believers ourselves. As muslims, yes we have the duty to show others what the right path is.
However, I believe that assessment and correction starts from ourselves. You assess yourself and correct yourself, and then look around and see what you can fix around you. To me, sickness of heart is defiance from god's message. We are all diseased, in one way or the other. Our focus should be on self-assessment and improving ourselves, struggling to bring ourselves to the point where we can convince someone of something by action and example, not by cross arguments. We all stand at different levels of moral, religious, spiritual and intellectual strength. The disease of comparing ourselves with others to prove that we are better than the others is what results in hatred and distribution. The day we manage to correct ourselves, the world will be a much better place - but we are too self righteous to let that happen.
The least we can do is, stop pointing fingers.
That's right.. an Atheist won't call anyone blving in God "diseased" but someone that's out clubbing/drinking taking interest would still quote an Athiest as being 'diseased'.
I've quoted in my previous posts where it is written in the Quran:
To you be your religion and to me mine
There is no compulsion in religion.
Islam is tolerant to people of other faith.. the real 'disease' is mocking other peoples' beliefs.
Re: Intellectual show offs.
I am sorry, this is a serious thread but reminded me of Achmed the dead terrorist 
“Good eveniiiing, infidelll”
Re: Intellectual show offs.
Yes for those who say we should focus on ourselves I agree
For those who criticise me and I find they are right I listen to them even if they do not do the things they ask of me ... a scholar once said listen to the one who speaks truth yet himself does not act according to it ... may be one day he will take heed of his own advice.
I think it seems to be fairly basic that those who are hypocrites i.e. go clubbing, drinking, fornicating, dissing the revelation of Allah (SWT), etc and still call themselves Muslim are not better than those people who are openly non-Muslim. However, with a bit of kindness some people who find themselves doing those things may realise that the 'disease' is taking them further away into their demise.
To call someone 'diseased' carries in it no insult for those who think so they are either mistaken or attempting to judge the intention of God or of other people who says such things. If someone has a cold and I say he or she has a disease then how can that be an insult? It is rather a description of compassion that the reason why some people are acting in certain ways is because they have a disease ... that if the disease is taken away the problem or symptom should subside ... this is no insult ... but to the dieased people may seem to be so.
Re: Intellectual show offs.
psayah, I hate to say it but your last paragraph doesn't fit well with the rest of your quite sensible post. You would not like someone calling you 'diseased' because you believe in god. To you, not believing in god is a disease, to someone who does not believe in god, perhaps believing in god is a disease. Comparing someone's belief with a cold is something an immature amateur will do, I honestly don't expect you to do that.
I don't have any reservations with the word and how it has been used in Quran - I wouldn't dare. My issue is with hypocrites like myself wearing the robe of righteousness picking up these words and floating them around - esp using them to pass judgements on others. Like I said earlier, knowing god's message and being defiant is the disease.
Snowdrop, you missed the entire point.
Which point did I miss?
I dont mean to take sides here, but to someone who doesn't believe in god, god's word and your own judgement is the same. As for the written proof, queer is assuming a neutral position where one does not believe in god and needs proof to be convinced that there is a god. Those who believe in god need no written proof that god does not exist.
In my opinion, the problem here is not of convincing each other whether god exists or not. This debate dates back to where the history begins and I don't see this debate ending in this thread or forum either. It is more about whether or not to point fingers at someone who does not believe in god. And the point which I made earlier was that we are not examples of perfect muslims/believers ourselves. As muslims, yes we have the duty to show others what the right path is.
However, I believe that assessment and correction starts from ourselves. You assess yourself and correct yourself, and then look around and see what you can fix around you. To me, sickness of heart is defiance from god's message. We are all diseased, in one way or the other. Our focus should be on self-assessment and improving ourselves, struggling to bring ourselves to the point where we can convince someone of something by action and example, not by cross arguments. We all stand at different levels of moral, religious, spiritual and intellectual strength. The disease of comparing ourselves with others to prove that we are better than the others is what results in hatred and distribution. The day we manage to correct ourselves, the world will be a much better place - but we are too self righteous to let that happen.
The least we can do is, stop pointing fingers.
So in your opinion when someone says "God is a fiction and myth" is not an insult and he's not pointing fingers at people's belief?
The point we are discussing is not if Believers are better or Atheists are better. Sometimes an atheist might be better in action than a believer and sometimes a believer might be better than an atheist, we have good and bad people in every nation and religion so yeah I'm not interested in "who's better debate".
My discussion is concentrating on the reason for an atheist's disbelief, why he doesn't believe in God, miracles, supernatural etc.
Quran tells us that it's because they have a disease in their heart. Now what is that disease? Faithlessness.
And it is quite obvious for an atheist to be called faithless because he doesn't have any faith in God(he might be a good person but that is a different issue altogether).
I don't see how calling a spade a spade can be seen as "pointing fingers".
That's right.. an Atheist won't call anyone blving in God "diseased" but someone that's out clubbing/drinking taking interest would still quote an Athiest as being 'diseased'.
I've quoted in my previous posts where it is written in the Quran:
To you be your religion and to me mine
There is no compulsion in religion.
Islam is tolerant to people of other faith.. the real 'disease' is mocking other peoples' beliefs.
So calling God a fiction is very tolerant in your opinion?
I think you're being naive when you say "an Atheist won't call anyone blving in God 'diseased'." because you're not looking at the meaning of this term.
In Philosophy faithlessness is one of the diseases of heart and a heart who doesn't have faith is diseased.
Now of course, a faithless person can't call people of faith faithless or can he?
I don't see why an atheist should be taking offence for being called faithless or diseased.
I wouldn't mind if someone tells me that I have a disease of faith in my heart, I'll be elated.
I've said what I had to say on the previous pages.. I feel like i'm repeating myself times over. Psyah Bhai (with his last post) and Jaanwar as well as queer have all summed it up too..
Why should anyone call a person practicing another religion or not blv'ing in a deity be termed as 'diseased'?
Would you be alright if that person called all Muslims's as being 'diseased' for blving in God's existence when you don't hear or see Him?
Blv what you want to.. and let them blv what they want to without mocking their beliefs or them. They don't call Muslims plagued, virused or diseased for blving in Allah.
psayah, I hate to say it but your last paragraph doesn't fit well with the rest of your quite sensible post. You would not like someone calling you 'diseased' because you believe in god. To you, not believing in god is a disease, to someone who does not believe in god, perhaps believing in god is a disease. Comparing someone's belief with a cold is something an immature amateur will do, I honestly don't expect you to do that.
I don't have any reservations with the word and how it has been used in Quran - I wouldn't dare. My issue is with hypocrites like myself wearing the robe of righteousness picking up these words and floating them around - esp using them to pass judgements on others. Like I said earlier, knowing god's message and being defiant is the disease.
Peace Jaanwar
Would I not like it because it was offensive or would I not like it because it had some truth?
Regardless not liking something doesn't make it wrong. People can call me what they wish I will only call them nice things ... I'll let Allah (SWT) provide the definitions of who is or who is not diseased ...
You see to me those verses in the Qur'an are just as applicable to me as they are to disbelievers.
How they are applicable to me:
That in case I am a hypocrite I must be aware of those verses as a warning
How they are applicable to rejectors of faith:
That Allah (SWT) has explained their predicament in detail to me so I can take comfort in my belief.
Either way, no one is being singled out if any one is the reader must always cast those verses on himself ... as far as how I must converse with others ... even if I address a murderer or rapist I'll not abuse him or her with my words or actions but it does not mean that I can not remind of the Words of God in a way that is not onerous.
In all three leftist ppl I am seeing a trend...hmmm
:)
First of all, we are not making any judgements from ourselves nor we're using our logic and rationale for this statement about a disease in disbeliever's heart, those words are God's words who is the Knower of the hearts.
you don't understand, snowdrop. what you believe as god's words is not accepted as god's words by a majority of people. nor does it hold up in a court of law. at best, it is something you can choose to believe in for your own personal life. but you can't impose anything from your scripture as the truth/law on anyone who doesn't believe.
[quote]
And second of all, if you believe that this is the case with people who believe in God then that's fine but we have proof for what we say.
[/QUOTE]
once again, scripture is not proof. and will not be taken seriously by anyone outside your own religion, often times even within it. these are not universally true values or ideas.
Not really how I saw my Pakistani friends become agnostic/atheists. They struggle generally for 1-2 years where they are not ready to abandon their beliefs yet struggle to justify it to themselves. If they talk to someone they are told they will burn in hell forover in afterlife. Then they struggle with the huge soocial stigma associated with becoming an apostate and some in their social circle shun them as they are bad influence on kids. And then there was one parent where Dad has cut off as he is an apostate. So I feel you are talking in general based on your experience on the internet rather than real life experience with real people. For all people I know, it was very tough decision because of the real social impacts of their decision in a conservative Pakistani society.
To me, these atheists resemeble a lot like the first Muslims when Muhammad started preaching. Maybe those first Muslims also just heard of this new guy and though his message was really cool and so they started showing off to their Infidel friends as to how great Islam is and that the Infidels are idiots and will burn in hell forever, if they don’t believe?? Well, atheists are not that arrogant although they do go through some persecution (nowhere near the level Sahaba went through). Anyway, my point is that in pakistani society, people don’t abandon thei religion just because it is “fashionable” or “cool”. Its a very difficult decision for people who have to make it.
Nerds and geeks are generally terms used for smart people that are too bookish. Definitely not synonymous with stupids, idiots.
Maybe you have just been meeting the wrong atheists :). Actually its the first time I am hearing that atheists say that religious people cannot be successful in life because there are tons of successful religious people in the world. In my short stay here at this forum, I haven’t seen atheists make any such argument here either.
Ok, some atheists argue that religion is a root of some of evils (not all evils) in the world. Generally, its because of all the bloodshed in the name of religion we have seen historically. We can argue this if you want but for some reason I don’t think it was your point.
Re: Intellectual show offs.
[QUOTE]
So calling God a fiction is very tolerant in your opinion?
[/QUOTE]
Snowdrop,
Its another way of saying they don't believe there is a God. Its the same as you saying that you DO believe in God. By your standard, atheists should also be offended when you say you believe in God and non believers will burn in hell for eternity. But they don't. So why do you have such thin skin? Psychologically, it points to some deep lying insecurity about your belief that bugs you so much when someone questions it? Are you really that insecure about your beliefs?
[QUOTE]
In Philosophy faithlessness is one of the diseases of heart and a heart who doesn't have faith is diseased.
[/QUOTE]
Can you give me a reference for this claim? And not from philosophy of Quran but from philosophy as a subject.
[QUOTE]
My discussion is concentrating on the reason for an atheist's disbelief, why he doesn't believe in God, miracles, supernatural etc. Quran tells us that it's because they have a disease in their heart.
[/QUOTE]
Yet just because Quran says so, doesn't make it any less offensive. "Disease" is such a strong and offensive word, as it implies something really evil (a virus or an infection) and not just a difference of beliefs/opinions. To refer to someone as "diseased" just because he doesn't agree with you, is not the kind of tone you want to set, when starting an inter faith dialogue.
Try saying to a person in real life discussion and you will see how a neutral person responds to this. The finest living example of your religion is your prophet, right? How many people did he convert by starting an argument by saying that they are "diseased"?
you don't understand, snowdrop. what you believe as god's words is not accepted as god's words by a majority of people. nor does it hold up in a court of law. at best, it is something you can choose to believe in for your own personal life. but you can't impose anything from your scripture as the truth/law on anyone who doesn't believe.
once again, scripture is not proof. and will not be taken seriously by anyone outside your own religion, often times even within it. these are not universally true values or ideas.
Why do you think thast Scripture is not a proof?
That particular verse adresses all the mankind and when I quote it I show and imply it to myself before showing it to others.
Hareem01 probably reffered to the ayah only after someone asked her for the proof of her belief.
A heart without any divine knowledge is diseased and this is Muslims' belief queer, how can you stop us from believing in this?
Snowdrop, Its another way of saying they don't believe there is a God. Its the same as you saying that you DO believe in God.
Why do atheists have to name God as "fiction" or "myth"?
why can't they simply state that they don't believe in God or they don't have faith?
How come it is the same when they say "God is fiction" and when we say "we believe in God"?
By your standard, atheists should also be offended when you say you believe in God and non believers will burn in hell for eternity.
We don't believe that non-believers will burn in hell. In fact we believe non-believers might enter paradise because of their good actions.
There's a difference between non-believers and disbelievers. Disbelievers[kafir] are the people who know the truth but still reject it.
But they don't.
Yeah right, that's why we have reached 7 pages.
So why do you have such thin skin?
That's not a very polite and nice way to have a discourse. And I end my discussion here.
Cheers
Why do you think thast Scripture is not a proof?
That particular verse adresses all the mankind and when I quote it I show and imply it to myself before showing it to others.
Hareem01 probably reffered to the ayah only after someone asked her for the proof of her belief.
A heart without any divine knowledge is diseased and this is Muslims' belief queer, how can you stop us from believing in this?
yes, and mormons have scripture that addresses all mankind and tells you all sorts of things. i doubt you'd think that's the truth.
scripture is just scripture. and holds no validity for anyone not of that religion.
muslims are free to believe others' hearts are diseased, but to others like me it doesn't look like much more than immaturity and an expression of religion's propensity towards hatred.
Re: Intellectual show offs.
"intellectual show offs" are just as bad as religious bigots. when people rest their entire argument on attacking others opinions and beliefs, it is in increasingly bad taste no matter the stand. make a valid argument or just zip it. cannot stand either kind.
yes, and mormons have scripture that addresses all mankind and tells you all sorts of things. i doubt you'd think that's the truth.
It'd be stupid if I reject Mormon's Scripture without even reading and understanding it just because they're not Muslim.
scripture is just scripture. and holds no validity for anyone not of that religion.
Not true.
**muslims are free to believe others' hearts are diseased, **but to others like me it doesn't look like much more than immaturity and an expression of religion's propensity towards hatred.
You see, we don't believe that others' hearts are diseased because we have no knowledge of others' hearts.
We believe that faithlessness and doubtfulness is a disease of heart (like jealousy, pride and other diseases of the heart) and how we should protect ourselves from this disease.
Atheists don't believe that faithlessness is a spiritual disorder, they don't even acknowledge "faithlessness" as a thing so how can they be so offended?
Not true.
is too. no one thinks/accepts someone else's scriptures as the truth.
this is the point that you are refusing to accept. rest is just fluff.
is too. no one thinks/accepts someone else's scriptures as the truth.
this is the point that you are refusing to accept. rest is just fluff.
Peace queer
I'm beginning to think that you will reject a scripture because it is a scripture rather than assessing it for truth !!!