Inside the heart of non-believers

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Dear bella, changing religions or one set of make beliefs and useless rituals with another or changing one group of mullahs=priests with another is all useless just like changing one bank for another or changing one politician for another because the problem is we do not realise that we need a solid foundation which none of them have. This is why it is better to study scriptures for what they have been given according to scriptures themselves when they are read in their proper context in their actual texts.

Let me try and explain to you a problem between jews, christians and muslims. Each claims that abraham sacrificed his son to God. The stupidity of mullahs is that they take this to mean that abraham meant to kill his son for Allah. However if we look at words used and the mission that God gave to his messengers, it becomes clear that God is talking about dedication not killing ie abraham dedicates both his sons to mission of God. Both the quran and bible are correct but each set of mullahs is pulling things their way and in doing so create the impression that either quran or bible is wrong.

If we study each scripture in its original text and in context then a lot of so called differences can be eliminated very easily but people who are hell bent on keeping humanity divided they will keep pushing things the wrong way.

The very same is true about atheists that they do not study scriptures in light of real world realities either and jump on band wagon that both sides are wrong. Likewise the idea that jesus is son of God or messiah etc are just common mistakes on part of mullahs.

regards and all the best.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

And that is why muslims dedicate animals right after Hajj for Allah’s sake? Please let us know which lingual technique you refer to, in order to extract from the verses of Quran that Ibraheem (a.s.) saw a dream to dedicate Ismail.

Would you say those verses were incorrectly translated? Please also tell, if the last verse truly means “This was a clear trial”, does that mean the dedication ended at that point since it was just a test and test ended?

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Peace Teggy

Mughal1 undermines the collective understanding of Islam - he calls it "set of make beliefs and useless rituals" - he believes that he has the Deen and we have nothing ...

It would be interesting for him to try and explain what is meant by the Abrahamic sacrifice ... And how if there was no intent to take "his child's life" (AS) - a dedication can take place ... and his evidence thereof.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Is this a thread on philosophy or on religion? Started as a philosophical original post. Rapidly turned to religious discussion.

In the past, there was at least some semblance of separation between the two. Now they are merged. And have become synonymous.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Dear teggy, translation issue is a very complex one because it involves many aspects. The language itself is an issue because it had to come into existence and develop and go through many stages of development. Then there is issue of use of language by mankind and use of it by God. The issue of context etc etc. So if I started to explain all these things to you it will take me ages.

The best thing is to listen to darse quran by allama ghulam ahmed parwez and read his books as a starting point.

regards and all the best.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

two believers of the very same religion like mughal1 and psyah1 simply dont seem to be able to see eye to eye beyond the basic axioms. what is inside their hearts that does this to them?

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Dear psyah, your understanding of my point of view is incorrect. Humans have no such things as collective understanding because we are learning things each day and every second of our lives. All you can say is that some of us can agree on certain facts in context of real world realities and explanations that make best possible sense. It is because to understand the best possible explanation one needs to have the needed information and its proper understanding before the best possible explanation makes sense to oneself. This is why the quran makes no sense to people who have not prepared themselves for its proper understanding. If any people claim to understand the quran properly let them put forth their models of the way of life that is advised by the quran as they understand it. Then examine each of these models and see if any of them works as any of the people claim. if they do not then their claims about proper understanding of the quran are false and none can defend them.

For example, if we want a best car then we need to ask people who claim to be well verses in this field to come up with their models and when they come up with their models we can examine them and see which of them is the best and take that and leave the rest. Same is true for all religions, scriptures and mullahs. Let them all be put through the very same test and see if any of them comes on the top.

What I am saying is, people must learn things for themselves and see what they come up with and if anything they agree upon then that is fine. Truth can only and only be one but our opinions about the truth can vary depending upon what we know and how much of it we know for sure, remember we are all born not knowing anything. Some of us learn things much more than others so if anything we should try to find out who those people are and what they have discovered. By trying to stop each other from discovering things we are only working against the best interest of humanity itself. Whatever is against the best interest of human community is not hoy but unholy.

Whatever is unholy only an ignorant and foolish person can attribute to God and his messengers or scriptures. Now who is attributing unholy things to God? Look into things and you will find that rulers, money lenders and priesthood is at the forefront of it. They are dividing humanity on various grounds to take advantage of this division ie it leaves them free to keep masses confused and to use and abuse them at will for their own ends.

Tell me, does quran allow rule of people by people?

Does quran allow use and abuse of people by each other?

Does quran allow that people make fools of each other in the name of God?

Do rulers not become rulers to use and abuse masses?

Do money lenders not set-up stage for people to use and abuse each other by way of using money as basis for dealing with each other?

Do mullahs not use scriptures to set up stage for people to use and abuse each other?

One cannot defend anything that is harmful and even destructive for humanity no matter what so it is better that people use their God given brains and senses and see how they can come together as a proper human community. This is what the quran is all about to begin with.

This is why people need to separate religions and scriptures and mullahs and followers of religions and followers of scriptures and then look at scriptures as basis for ways of life and see where they all lead humanity.

It is time for all the masses who claim to follow any scripture that they wake up and look at the scriptures as guidance to a way of life not any religion. Muslims should do this in case of the quran and jews in case of torah and parses in case avesta and hindus in case vedas or christians in case of bible etc etc.

Masses have been fooled for far too long by their priests, rulers and money dealers about their scriptures and their actual teachings. It is time they studied their scriptures with critical eyes looking for models in them to see what kind of life will come about if they followed those teachings and then examine those models and see which of them is top model among all of them if any or is it that they all teach the very same basic truth or falsehood and support each other?

As explained, people are born knowing nothing and take time to learn thing so at what stage anyone can claim one has learned the allegedly Godly revealed scripture? If people who never studied any scripture in detail in their life time and tell us this is true scripture or this is its true teaching how right can we be in accepting their claims till we examine things for ourselves? Will joining of a lot of such people together make what they claim true? No, it will not. if some claim is true then it is true only because their is sufficient evidence for its truth and likewise it is false if there is sufficient evidence for that. Minority or majority opinion is not the criterion for truth of a scripture or for its falsehood for that matter.

Scriptures have been pushed aside as irrelevant not necessarily because they are totally false but because they stop people from living as enemies of each other. So those who want to divide humanity to rule it for use and abuse of it for personal gains they are the ones who are responsible for this step. These people are rulers, priests and money lenders.

These people have used various social, political, religious, cultural and economic tricks and mechanism to divide humanity and to keep it divided. We will be our worst enemies if we will let them get away with it.

regards and all the best.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Guys remember to be civil and remember not to post bigoted comments. Not that I am saying anyone has but just a reminder.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Dear southie, did you ever sit on your own to think and question, what is basis of philosophy itself?

Do you know that philosophy is simply put an explanation of something based upon reason? It helps us look at things rationally. This is why we have philosophy of science, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, philosophy of way of life, philosophy of existence, philosophy of this and philosophy of that.

So philosophy is basically an all embracing concept whatever we want to make sense of anything by reasoning things out as much as or as far as we want or we can.

This is why explanation, explanation and more explanation is all about philosophy provided there is no make belief involved that is beyond reasoning. So whether we discuss religion or scripture or history or whatever we end up bringing into it everything because all is somehow interconnected.

It is because we fail to see things in wider context that is why we have all sorts of problem.

Think about it when you were a baby how much your parents tried to draw your attention to things about which you were not aware. This is very, very important point that most people do not realise. It is because when we start our lives we are totally empty in our minds and so our minds are very narrow. as information fills our minds our minds become inflated ie they expand or we become more and more open minded the more information comes into our minds.

This is what the quran does ie it draws to our attention to matters to which we do not pay attention. Brains need triggers and our senses provide them but even senses do not help us as much as information from various quarters about which we are not aware. If you were living in one country far away and I was living in another far away country, we will have to let each other know about our presence otherwise we will never know about each other. Likewise higher goals for human existence needed foreign intervention that is why the revelation concept is of vital importance.

However, we are not born learned so it takes us quite a lot of struggle to get to know things. We get to know things because our parents and teachers and wider society keeps feeding us with information.

So scriptures are not at all useless things rather we need to learn enough through our life experiences to make best use of them and then see how we get on with life. It is because we are born not knowing anything at all therefore we will have to discover each and everything for ourselves including the real world realities as well as what the scriptural texts mean in their own proper contexts. This is why I differ not only with mullahs but all the stupidity that scientists show by giving their verdicts on scriptures without ever actually studying them in original texts in their proper contexts in light of real world realities.

Philosophy, logic, rational thinking, science, technology are all going to come together to help us discover for ourselves what is message in the scriptures for us because having all sorts of knowledge at our finger tips is only going to help us understand the actual scriptural message much better. It is because we are with time discoverying a lot of things that we will find helpful to make our world a better place through better understanding of things from various angles.

regards and all the best.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

I read ur post 47 and agreed with most of it. I respectfully submit that philosophy of religion is but just one philosophy. That philosophy can also be about other topics. And the blurring of the line between philosophy and religion is unfortunate.

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Peace Mughal1

My understanding of your point of view is accurate ... I know that your belief system is different to mine ... I know that you believe that you use the Qur'an, Science and Rational thinking to formulate your views and I know you are not upon the methodology that I am on ... You call the dominant wave of Islam "mindless rituals and make beliefs" ... This is accusation and slur ... I know that you reject collective understanding (and even rejected that it is possible to have collective understanding), from our Sahabah (RA) and the ulema who are the inheritors of the prophets (AS) ...

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

Peace queer

Yet the Qur'an is 1 ... The text is preserved and despite many such people who have come and tried to dilute the Islamic message people have still managed to maintain an orthodoxy ...

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

that isn't at all what i asked. and even what you claim is debated by none other than muslims - re: lost pages, ordering etc.

in addition, a verse is only as good as its interpretation. if each person finds a different meaning and wants to argue and fight over it, whats up with their hearts, brah..

Re: Inside the heart of non-believers

I am glad you actually asked a religious question..sort of :D

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
That is the Book—there is no doubt ^in it^, a guidance for the ones who are Godfearing:

(2:2 quran) different translations.

Decent people who seek guidance, quran appeals them. Same time many people get repelled by it.
Quran say it over and over.. people who think.. people who reflect. They will know..

What mughal is doing, I am sure if he spend some time reading quran he would find his answers.
I did not read his whole posts, but seems like he is building process around the scriptures.

Mughal: dude... old-testament new-testament, only contradict quran when they contradict them selves.