Influence of the western culture

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Assalam O Alaikum

I used the words west and east just to represent the Chrintian / Jewish Culture and Islamic culture (not only Pakistan) respectively. As far as supremacy is concerned Allah SWT, the Creator of this Universe, Who has more knowledge than you or anybody here or anybody in the World mentions clearly in His book (if you believe in that) who is supreme and who is a looser.

Stud, from your post, its clear that you are an Ahmedi, so a non Muslim, but even if you are not an Ahmedi, you cannot be a Muslim unless you accept all what is there is Quran and said by Allah SWT's messanger. (again this is from Quran and not said by me, if you want the proof or concerned ayat from Quran i will feel pleasure to produce it, but i am sure you will not ask for it). As far as declaring Ahmedis Kafir is concerned, its all according to Quran and ahadiths. No one gives a verdict from his own.

What i can see from this thread, people for the sake of saving themselves from critisism have only one thing to say "Allah is the one to judge between us and we are answerable to him not you (which is a fact) " and they do not listen to those who try to show them the right path, anyways, death is not far, everything will be crystal clear at that time but then no chance of repentance.

Dilwale
Every culture (not religion) except islamic culture (which does not exist) has some things good and somethings bad. But what will you say about those people who accept bad things from a bad culture. Take an example of drinking or not doing parda.

The conclusion is that : We don't want any restriction, let us free, we don't want islam, we don't need to do parda, we don't need to stop drinking, we love this culture, what ever will happen after death, we will see that, just keep your mouth shut and stop preaching us, we are more educated and literate than your scholors, and naozobilla we know more than Allah SWT and His Prophet SAW.

Thats what seems to be the feelings of most of the people here.

And those who say why division why east west north south, why khoon kharaba, they just don't wanna leave the freedom they are enjoying now, they don't want to know the truth, just watch from far and comment on it.

I am sorry, i know my language was not friendly.

Assalam O Alaikum

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Yes You are right about one thing Abdulla, I am a Sunni , I am an Ahmedi, I am a Shia, I am a Barelvi, I am Shahafi, I am Hambali, I am Mailiki , I am Hanafi, I am Ismaili.

I am united and one with all these people. Because By the Grace of Allah They all say the Kalimah.

The muslims are like one body and I am a proud part of it.

Stud

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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Today Two Muslims Rubiya and I , Have declared our complete solidarity with the reciters of the Kalimah. We stand united against hate and prejudice.

We Stand As Muslims.

Stud

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Minor disagreements in fiqah and shariyat should be subsided so the people can utilize their resources for the Better/Greater Cause of Islam.

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Abdulla:

With all due respect I think you just being bent out of shape for nothing. And please stop passing judgement as who is true muslim etc...I don't feel anyone here is putting down their Islamic beliefs or values, instead it has to do with changes in attitude as we are exposed to a different cultures, experiences and etc...and how it create a different sets of mindframe. Does that change in our attitude lesser our Islamic beliefs and values. I don't thinks so! Balance between your beliefs and your daily activities should not be a major problem.

STUD

I completely but respectfully disagree with your notion that Western Society is superior is because they are not judgemental and dont like to Play the role of God. Where have you been living man? There is as much division between Christian Sects than we hear about it. Raceism still a fundamental problem. Morals are at the lowest level. Western Society is no differ than others. Don't let the smoking mirrors fool you my friend.

T.T.F.N

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Assalamualaikum to brothers & sisters.

I'm very glad comming here and reading post in these forums, very educational and can learn about life and feelings of all sorts of muslims/pakistanis. I myself, pakistani born and raise up in Hong Kong, fortunately, the enviroment is not very bad and we have big masjid/islamic centres in all district and alot of great scholors coming here all the time from America, Pakistan, India, Turkey,
Syria, Saudi Arabia (the grand imam visited
last year during christmas time) and alot from other places. Alhamdulillah, people are not so bad here and day by day the muslims
life are improving. The only regret is no Arabic classes or a full time scholor teaching Islam.

Now comming back to the forum, I totally stand alonside Br Abdullah and Br Homid who got very high Islamic spirits and education.
I did also participated in forum against
Ahmedi and it is to my very much regret, that there are still muslims/pakis who still dont know whats wrong with these people and try to speak on their behalf. Many of you, hear just think that a person who recite Kalima is a muslim and let him belive what he want and dont ask what he does, this is the problem with muslims nowadays, please read the hadiths and see that how our prophet Hazrat Muhammed (PBUH) and other Sahabas visited muslims everywhere from time to time to correct them and teach them Amar-bin-maroof.
And now you want scholors/learned person
to leave you alone let u believe want u want.

Finally, I want to say please if you dont want to listen to somebody more learned then you and reminding you of your duties, dont try to stop by posting rubbish here, he is just fulfilling his duties which is also duties of all of us muslims. Nobody can force you and me to accept what he says but pls
try to listen and learn for good sake.

Regards

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Assalam O Alaikum

First of all Ramadan Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters.

Jazakumullah Khair ya Mohammed Ali.

Sister Rubiya
I do not have the right to say who is a Muslim and who is not, Allah has this right and i am just forwarding the message of Allah SWT, and naozobilla this Holy Quran is not written by me.

Stud
First of all see your post on 12-16-98 12:47 PM CT (US) and then just see what Allah SWT says :

Sura Alnisa
004.065
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.

That is in any case if you do not agree with what Allah SWT's messanger has said then you are not a Muslim.

So we all can see where do we stand in front of Allah SWT.

Further in the same surah

004.069
And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

Wa ma alaina illal balagh
Assalam O Alaikum

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Yes I stand by my post 100% . I dont think that Relegion should be mixed with the goverment.

I said Before that people who have sex by consent should not be flogged.

I still stand by it. I think these are matters of personal choice and the goverment should not get involved in who is sleeping with who.

I dont want to see people's hands cut off because they stole something.

I think that is too harsh and I am against it.

I dont want to see women being stoned to death for adultery.

I dont think I can kill a woman for having slept with someone. I just cant watch a woman bleed to death as a mob throws stones at her. This is too medevial and maybe not needed now.

I said before I dont want the Police arresting couples on Dates.

I still stand by this 100% , We live in a modern world , girls are now deciding to choose their own spouse. If they go out to eat or have fun why should that bother the Goverment. The goverment should mind their own business and not interfere in matters of Romance !

I also said that People should not be killed for speaking against relegion.

I still stand by that. I dont think men or women should be killed because they said something that is Heretic. I think there should be freedom of Speech. I dont want to live in a soceity that fears to speak its mind. I know that in some Islamic States people who denounce relegion openly our killed. I see this as wrong.

I also mentioned that women should not forced to stay at home, men should not be forced to grow beards, and pardah should not be forced on women.

I see these as personal choices and such deceisions ; THE Goverment should not interfere .

I said Before that Homosexuals should not be killed because of Sexual Oreintation. Well I have heard some Mullahs say that The "Islamic Punishment " For Homosexuals is that they be thrown of the highest building in the city. Frankly I dont see this as apropriate therapy. Last thing we need is homosexuals falling from Sky Scrapers plunging to their deaths.

As a human being and a muslim , I opose all things that cause harm and pain to society. I opose them even if thier propogators intend to present it in an "Islamic Light". For me Islam is compassion and Justice. And I fail to see a role of goverment in our Personal spiritual life.

I am very satisfied with the Western Secular aproach to goverment. I think they are superior to the East and all the Islamic Countries we have at present.

.
Stud

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Stud
Islam will not change with the thinking of people like you or anyone else. It will remain the same. And i just want to clear your misunderstanding of being a Muslim, as was clear from my previous post, if you do not agree with Quran and sunnah you are NOT A MUSLIM. Ofcourse no one can stop you thinking that you are one.

As far as convincing you is concerned, if those ayats cannot convince you, i think no one in the world can convince you now, but hidaya from Allah SWT. (inshallah)

bye and take care

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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Assalam O Alaikum

Sister Rubiya
I think a person who has some brain will not ask the same question again and again but anyway i am repeating the answer i had given before. I am no one to decide who is a Muslim and who is not. Now what all i was saying about Stud was said by Allah SWT or by Prophet SAW, i was just forwarding it to you, you see those ayats (naozobilla) are not written by me.

So those ayats are declaring him non Muslim and not me.

Just take an example of Ahmedis, now you would be arguing why they have been termed non Muslims by the scholars and even by Government of Pakistan, and according to you No one has the right to declare anyone non muslim. But the fact is that they have been declared non Muslim in the light of Quran and Sunnah. i.e. their believes were wrong and Quran and ahadith term them non Muslim.

Now stud sahab, he is openly rejecting Quran and Sunnah, so do you think he is a Muslim. There are 7 condition for being a Muslim (hope you know all of them) and believing in Quran is one of them.

I will just request you to read the previous posts carefully so that i don't have to repeat my statements again and again. Thank you.

Assalam O Alaikum.

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I ask the people here; how can a society progress when the moment a Man speaks his mind, he is frisked away to the gallows or condemned as a Kafir. This would be an Orewellian Nightmare.

The Fact that I do not favor the implementation of certain punishments mentioned in the Qoran, has no relevance to my status as a Muslim.

For example if I do not favor the implementation of Hand chopping that does not mean I am saying, "Stealing is a good thing".

If I do not favor the stoning to Death of women that does not mean I am saying, " Adultery is Good".

If I did in fact Advocate Adultery and stealing as virtues then indeed I would be in contradiction with Islam and the Qoran.

The Qoran is against Adultery and Stealing and I agree with it completely, but the means by which we wish to assert this morality is subject to change with time and condition.

For Example Hazrat Ali once repealed the cutting of the hand for stealing by saying

" It is better that 50 guilty men go free rather than one innocent is punished"

Was Ali against Islam? Did he contradict the Qoran? Because he used his moral authority to repeal a punishment mentioned in the Qoran does not mean that he was in favor of Stealing.

The Prophet Himself forgave many people who slandered Islam and committed crimes. Was the Prophet against Islam?

The point is that the means by which we wish to achieve Islamic morality is subject to change with time and condition.

What does not change however is the moral essence of Islam; things like

There is only One God
Stealing is wrong
Murder is wrong

The manner in which we choose to assert them should not bear any consequence on personal faith.

Rubiya understands it and I applaud her efforts to do so.

Stud

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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Very nicely put Stud.

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I am Humbled and Honored to be in complete agreement with Rubiya And Kashmiri Girl regarding this matter.

Stud

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Wa Iza Khatabahumul Jahiloona Qalu Salama

Assalam O Alaikum.

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Assalam Alaikum

If the west was so superior and civilised then why does a teenage girl turn to prostitution to feed her children? why is it that a rapist can question his victims in a court of law? why are there homeless people?

This didn't happen under the Islamic state.

Also no matter how much you like to say that women are free in the western society, women still have to work ten times harder to be accepted.

People forget that Islam is not just spiritual it is also political. In Islam even working to feed your family is seen as worship.

Civilisation is the product of spiritual excellence.

Stud,

It is part of the ahmedi teachings that whoever doesn't accept ahmed mirza as a prophet is a kafir. So when you say that you cannot call anyone who recites the Kalimah a kafir you actually contradict your own teachings and beliefs.

Assalam Alaikum

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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hmmm i jump in!

..

1)
mr. abdullah writes:
"christian/jew culture"!
how many chirtians would agree to that "/" sign??
how many jews?

2)
pakistani culture is "islamic" culture?
how come?
do all the muslim countries have the same culture?
what is islamic culture?

3)
as far as "night clubs" and "nude bars" are concerned, "kothas" in our culture are the same! the prostitutes are licensed by the pakistani government..

islam??

4)
comparing the societies of pakistan and canada...
which one of the two gives people a religious freedom?
which one of the two makes sure no one is dying hungry?
which one of the two makes sure people get justice?

which one of the two is corrupt?
which one of the two runs on bribery?
which one of the two is on the verge of economical collapse?
which one of the two has a 13% litercay rate?

its obvious which one of the two is better~

5)
now before i say anything on my own behalf.. mr abdullah PLEASE explain to me what is "islamic culture" ? and which country is it seen in??

please give atleast ONE example of a country where there isislamic culture!