India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

India vs. England - Post Test Series Discussion

Several questions arises in the minds as India plunged to another heavy defeat, after Dravid won the toss and chose to field in the third and final test:

  1. For a captain who is a professional mastermind on implementing innovative strategies and executing a series of plans, one after another, all in succession whilst holding a firm view (in hindsight) that, in one way, shape or form, it will work and produce him the results…what happened? What exactly went through Dravid’s mind when he (mis)-read the pitch? Did he purposely (pre-planned) put England into bat, thinking that they might as well try their hand one more time chasing the score the nth time around? Did he completely and miserably fail to read the pitch in a proper manner? As soon as he put England into bat, did Dravid hand the match over to them in a silver platter?

  2. Dependence on Dravid - “The Wall”, as he is labeled in several articles throughout the globe. As soon as a stone is thrown at the last brick that is built into this “Wall”, the entire team crumbles in no-time. Is the team depending too much on Dravid? Lately, it is becoming a “one-man” team (If such and such player performs on a given day and sticks to his end for an ample period of time, at least there is a ray of hope shining on the word “result”).

One particularly exemplar comes to mind here - Greatly noted:

Of course, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag can be swapped with each other in the above equation, but nevertheless, the point is very much valid.

  1. The ultimate reliance on lower-order - Till how long will Dravid and Co. continue to completely rely on the likes of Dhoni and Pathan to win the match for India? When will the entire mindset of the Indian team start to accept the fact that one man simply cannot…repeat, cannot be relied on to save the team from the jaws of defeat. The top order (or the entire team for that matter) has to click.

  2. Yes, while I do agree that English team performed brilliantly in a foreign backyard, but that did not come at no charge. The cost, from India’s point of view, was Sehwag getting out cheaply, the “tomorrow is another day” Tendulkar and Dravid. That right there, cost them the entire match, let alone a single session in which they had the upper-hand.

  3. The brand new emergence of Matthew Hoggard. Let’s also touch upon that point of view. The pick of the bowlers from English side, picking thirteen (13) wickets in the entire series at a mere 17.84 average. Similar to Munaf Patel (who bowled absolutely stunningly and produced 10 wickets at an average of ~22 in his column), has England found a new “sensation”? Going by that retrospect, has India found a new “sensation”?

  4. Who would you consider the best bowling pair of Indian line-up, given the current scene? My pick includes SreeSanth, Patel and Pathan. These three, come next World Cup, should be groomed in an appropriate manner. Definitely the most likely possible combination, in my view.

One grand finale question: Who’s to blame?

(It should be noted that since 'circa 2000, India has played a total of 37 tests (batting second), has won 17 and lost 7).

Thoughts/concerns/questions/opinions?

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

The cause of the defeat is simple.

(1) Playing one batsman short when you already have at least 2 out-of-form batsmen in the side.

(2) Abysmal fielding : Dropping catches and missing easy stumpings.

(3) Wrongly choosing to field after winning the toss.

In reality, everything that could have gone wrong , went wrong for India.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

Two glaring misconceptions in your post

Since when India rely on Pathan and Dhoni? They just came on barely an year ago (Pathan just started scoring since Lankan series) Before that India never relied on their tail. To refresh your memory a little; Indian tail was branded as the worst one with the likes of Agarkar and Karthik making up the numbers. Yes you are right that one should never rely on tail but just to correct you here that India seldom did and only recently these two have been scoring runs.

This is the most baffling statement of all :confused: Have you not been following England victories lately? Dont you know that Hoggard has been phenomenal since last two and half years now and not just this series? ‘New sensation’? :eek:

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

Tendulkar.....Tendulkar.....Tendulkar.....

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

India needs to take this ‘FIFTH DAY’ ghost out of their bodies. They are falling on Zimbz level when it comes to batting fourth :smack: I hope others specially the next door neighbours don’t get this virus.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

The data gathered on Matthew Hoggard since circa '02 (Averages).

1) India in England, 2002 (Series): 38

2) The Ashes in Australia, 2002/03: 63

3) Zimbabwe in England, 2003: 20

4) England in Bangladesh, 2003/04: 23

5) England in Sri Lanka, 2003/04: 82

6) The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in West Indies, 2003/04: 25

7) New Zealand in England, 2004: 43

8) The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in England, 2004: 31

9) Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (Eng/SA) in South Africa, 2004/05: 26

10) Bangladesh in England, 2005: 13

11) The Ashes in England, 2005 = 30


Hoggard's statistics from most recent 20 performances:

Series Averages

Australia = 30
Bangladesh = 13
India = 18
Pakistan = 37
South Africa = 26
West Indies = 31

In the last tour of Pakistan (while he was thrashed all around the park by the likes of Afridi consistently), a paltry figure of 407 runs scored at a SR of 60 in 110 overs.

In the current tour of India, 232 runs scored at a SR of 49 in 106.5 overs (a mere addition of four extra overs and an addition of 175 runs, as compared to above). If any data is wrongly given, please do feel free to correct.


In conclusion, a lowest ever series average (bar Bangladesh and Zimbabwe) against the "second best batting line-up in the world" side. Hence the term, a "new" sensation.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

Wait till India wins the ODI series than everything will be forgotton and the only focus will be the brilliant ODI series victory. Such is the craving to give their idols the status of demi gods that the defeat in test series is over looked if the team wins the pyjama series. Sounds familiar? Watch this space.

Coming to Hoggard, he can hardly be described as a new sensation. He has been around for quite sometime and with a lot of success. New sensation ---- that is carryng things too far.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

I agree with Ehsan bhai that saying Hoggie is a new sensation is an out cry but this bowler has backed himself and taken the workload of the english team on his shoulder, ofcourse along with the other good bowlers in part; Harmison, S. jones and Flintoff. speaking of Flintoff you can say he is the new sensation and I think Vaughn’s all brain sensors will be tickling upside down :d:woho: and now his captaincy is in jeopardy, and his batting was not impressive at all.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

Since when the performances are based on averages? It is an importanat stat but Its the number of wickets that matter. He took 12 wickets in one single game against south Africa on a benign pitch some year and half ago. Did it matter how many runs he gave away? Aussies and occassionally saffies score their runs at a brisk rate and hence higher averages against them.

IMO you need to change your perception about averages. Yes, its a very important part of one’s career but it doesnt always tell the true story specially in a five match long series with fluctuating fortunes.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

oh no rest assured about Vaughan’s captaincy. He will be leading england against pakistan and in ashes provided he is fit. Flintoff was superb but it is Vaughan who has taken this England team this far and he is no slouch with bat either.

Although flintoff was sublime with his captaincy, I dont see him replacing vaughan anytime sooner!

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

I am not saying that they will chop/change right away but its assured that aftermath of ashes (england's drubbing) there will be changes for sure.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

^ Haha, you are funny :D England might lose Ashes again but will not be drubbed. They are a force now and if anyone can beat aussies in their backyard, its them.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

^^ we will see :snooty: its not that far away :smiley: and I dont agree with your notion that they are the only team that they can beat aussies in their backyard.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

^ Well yeah that was an unfair generalization on my part. But still on their full strength credentials as well as backup strength, they are the team most likely to do that. Better? :)

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

I say keep Flintoff as captain for ODIs and bring Vaughan as captain in tests. In this way, Vaughan will be able to concentrate on tests and prolong his test career.

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

Dhobi yar kya ho gya hay:confused: ?
Hoggard has been the most succussful bowler for England in the last 2 years.

I don’t want to think what will happen when Hoggard along with Flintoff, harmison and Jones will play against Pakistan this year.

I think the blame goes to the selection committee for not selecting Kaif after his brilliant 91 in the first test and for an overall poor batting selection.
From a so called world class batting lineup only Dravid’s performance was commendable and to some extent Jaffer. It is hard to believe but Anil Kumble was the 3rd highest scorer for india in this series. This explains the total batting failure.
Players like Sehwag (who is fully cured from verbal diahhrea) and Tendulkar became a liability on a batting lineup which was already a batsman short. And they should be held responsible for this defeat.
I won’t blame Yuvraj since he has been in fine touch lately and it was his bad luck that his batting didn’t click.
Indian bowlers did their job really well and none of them can be blamed.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

What about Owais Shah performance? I think he is a very good batsman I wonder if England will try him ODI as well but looking his test innings he seemed very set batsman for a test side.

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

Just an observation...

Before Greg Chappell India used to do well in tests but not in one dayers....

Ever since he has taken over the reins as coach it has reversed...India is playing well in the one dayers but not so in the tests....

Re: India's "Post-martem" - Who's to blame for the heavy defeat?

I am more than happy to change my viewpoint on Matthew Hoggard. Yes, he has been around for quite some time, and I took it quite far by labeling him a "new" sensation. However, I do like to note that he has bowled quite magnificiently in the series, alongwith his other two key partners Flintoff and Harmison, who all contributed almost equally in the bowling department.


:)

Re: India’s “Post-martem” - Who’s to blame for the heavy defeat?

i blame rain gods for not coming for help …:naraz: