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You're absolutely right that one Premji does not reflect the majority of the muslims, but how come there is no Premji in Pakistan, mohajir or otherwise.
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Karina ever heard of MP Bhandara or Bairam Avari?
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and my immediate neighbor is a single muslim woman. Can you say the same thing about Pakistan?
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Yes
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Name any industry and I will tell you a few muslim names that rival any multimillionaire.
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And you think we cannot say the same for Non muslims in Pak???
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RF, where ever did you get an idea that Indian muslims are despised? One idiots views do not a national mantra make. I would urge you to take a trip to India. Indian muslims in states like karnataka, Tamil Nadu, pretty much most of the south, which is not the hindi belt have a much higher percapita income than hindus in Bihar and UP. India is marching forward, ugly episodes like Godhra are a minor blip in the rich and varied and valuable history of the country. **
Come on yara.. Indian Muslims are a fifth column, might not be true or even publicized but lets not spin things here. Would love to go to India, particularly Punjab/Haryana/AP (which should be all be called Punjab). Your very corrct in pointing out the South, you forgot Kerala as well, but I am talking about the majority of Muslims residing in North India. Look Godhra and such incidents are an INTERNAL matter of India, so I am not going to count them.
Indian Muslims are like the Blacks in America...take it as you will :D
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WE have racists like there are racists in every country. The good thing is that for the first time in Modern India, the politicos cannot play one group against each other. The future of India is going to be marked by regional imbalances not ethnic. **
Hey no doubt about it. Like I mentioned above. I do not believe that regional or ethnic imbalances are good, however with a country that is the size of India, it is bound to happen. Believe me, I have heard more Anti-Pakistani statements coming from Indian Muslims, so I am not pinning the blame on Hindus.
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Rajput, how did you get that idea that Indian muslims are nowhere close to Mohajirs in wealth and status? Is there some statistic or study done to show that?
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Sure Pakistan Studies did an analysis. I can try to dig up the .pdf on the net or if you would like I can send the detaled info to track that journal.
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You’re absolutely right that one Premji does not reflect the majority of the muslims, but how come there is no Premji in Pakistan, mohajir or otherwise. Move on from Premji and you will see scores of rich muslims in every industry you care to mention. YOu have not visited India so perhaps you’re thinking that beyond Premji and film stars muslims are a poor and despised minority. Not true. Name any industry and I will tell you a few muslim names that rival any multimillionaire.
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Ok so are you saying that theres no Mohajir doing as well in Pakistan? If your saying that then you would be wrong because much of heavy Industry is owned by Memons who migrated from India and the Punjabis, particularly Chiniotis.
Muslims as a group are still lagging behind, whether you call it racism, failure to integrate whatever…they have been that way for a long time now. Please read my response to Matty to gain a better insight.
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Matsui is right about the south. I’d mentioned Bangalore before. The apt we brought was built by muslim developers, one of the biggest names in the south. The agent was muslim, and my immediate neighbor is a single muslim woman. Can you say the same thing about Pakistan? **
First off, the minorities in Pakistan are miniscule. Secondly they do not form significant portions of any part of the country minus some parts (Umarkot, Thar region) of Sindh. Now from my personal experiences, the Sikhs in Attock are doing exceptionally well in business and the Sikhs of NWFP are renowned traders (smuggling?)..Since my background is in Northern Pakistan, where Sikhs, Christians form the bulk of the minority population, I can only discuss them. To be fair, it is the Christians in Pakistan that are worst off as a group.
India is multi-religion nation, surely greater numbers of Muslim should (must) be visible compared to largely Islamic Pakistan…I mean if you ask me how well are the Hindus in Libya, I could say something like ask all 10 of them 
I’m kidding, but do you see my point here?
The Gujerati people, whether they be Hindu or Muslim are generally quite a well off business minded people, but that did not stop the Muslims being burned, raped and murdered in Gujrat last year. Just like the wealth of the Jews in Germany and Europe did not stop them from being wiped out by the Nazi’s during WW2.
But even you who supposedly believes in the long dead secularlism of India (if it was in the first place) have chosen to brand Indian mulims like kabir as Pakistani’s because they criticise the Hinduvta terrorists and murderer’s. Here is a reminder - kabir is it that intolerable for muslims…they could have easily traced you if you actually live india unless you post it from pakisttan](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57865&highlight=kabir)
And you have cast doubt on the loyalty of an Indian Muslims like kabir, not just once - kabir is not sincere may be posting from pakistan. i always doubt kabir](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56956&highlight=kabir)
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Asif / Karina,
Pakistanis generally will never understand what a composite society is. They do not have a sizeable minority. In any part of India, you will see a large minority population and people live together. Incidents like Gujarat are a blur on the democratic norms of the society and they expect that all the remaining Hindus take up arms and slay the VHP/BJP etc. But, they forget that India is a democracy. We can never do that, as we have to follow the law, based on our constitution. Even the worst offenders have the right to protection and fair trial.
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Victory, I agree with your first sentence only. Indian Jews, Parsis are so much better off while the Muslims, Christians tend to be worse off. I am talking as group not Premji or Kalam. The big issue here is the haves and have nots. All of the Indians wish to make us/the world believe that Muslims are doing good in their country, however no one has proven it. Only matty came up with the income comparisons of the South vs. North for Muslims, I'll believe it.
Surely, the Indian government, NGOs etc must have catologued the Indian Muslim state..considering the fact that they are such a large minority? I mean my goal here isn't to dictate what India should do but rather what WAS done in the past.
Also, one more question to the Indian Non-Muslims (Hindu, Sikh whatever you like): Would it be such a big deal if Indian Muslims did NOT condemn Pakistan? I mean, if Indias Muslims are patriotic to their country, is it a requisite to condemn Pakistan?
I know a Pkistani Hindu fellow out in Arizona, good guy, was the head of a Pakistani Hindu Association, told me that he loves Pakistan with all of his heart, but respects India as the spiritual motherland.
Another time, on the commuter train..Saw a Sardarji reading Jang (I thought he was looking at the pictures :D) Went up to him and asked if he knew Urdu. Turns out he's from Lahore, tells me that his last trip to India- Amritsar was great, Indian Punjabis gave him the best treatment.
My aunt, coverted to Islam, was Sikh before. She still visits India whenever she has the chance. This lady is insanely Pakistani, yet can never forget her village in East Punjab.
Anyways, my point here is to mention that Pakistanis on the whole don't feel threatened if their Hindu and Sikh countrymen don't hate India.
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*Originally posted by RajputFury:
Victory, I agree with your first sentence only. Indian Jews, Parsis are so much better off while the Muslims, Christians tend to be worse off. I am talking as group not Premji or Kalam. The big issue here is the haves and have nots. All of the Indians wish to make us/the world believe that Muslims are doing good in their country, however no one has proven it. Only matty came up with the income comparisons of the South vs. North for Muslims, I'll believe it.
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Parsis/Jews are very less in number and also highly entreprenuerial and highly educated. Muslims and christians are sizeable population. If you go to Kerala, you find that christians are very rich (infact much richer than Hindus). I do accept that many muslims are in bad conditions, but it is not that Hindus are all ruling over them. For ever poor muslim found, you will find 5 poor Hindus. People tend to speak like only 3% of the bureacrats are muslims, but if you take the general trend of the community, they dominate in other fields, like transport and tanneries and leather you will find Muslims are much higher than their population percentage.
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*Originally posted by RajputFury:
Also, one more question to the Indian Non-Muslims (Hindu, Sikh whatever you like): Would it be such a big deal if Indian Muslims did NOT condemn Pakistan? I mean, if Indias Muslims are patriotic to their country, is it a requisite to condemn Pakistan?
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It need not be important to condemn pakistan. But, you have to support your mother land. I will tell you one fact, which puts me to shame. Hindus in India have seen some muslims celebrate whenever pakistan wins over India. Can you believe it? These stories get exaggerated in the press and the common man tend to categorise every Muslim, as supporting pakistan.
Also the attitude of the right wing Hindu nationalist has further hardened after the start of terrorism in Kashmir and Punjab. Let me not repeat the role of Pakistan in the strife, as you should be knowing very well, but the hardliners make inflammatory speeches, which is a bit unnerving the muslim community. Many of my friends tell that, by creating problems in India, Pakistan has created more problem for Muslims here.
Hindus don't care what Muslims think about pakistan, but for sure, everyone wants loyalty. They cannot tolerate anti India slogans and threatening calls what some muslim fundamentalist organisations make.
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Originally posted by RajputFury: *
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Also, one more question to the Indian Non-Muslims (Hindu, Sikh whatever you like): Would it be such a big deal if Indian Muslims did NOT condemn Pakistan? I mean, if Indias Muslims are patriotic to their country, is it a requisite to condemn Pakistan?
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As for Indian muslims cheering for Pak in cricket, let me give you an experience I had. I'd heard about it and always wondered if it was true. In the 99 world cup I was in HK and went to our club to watch the India Pakistan match. Just as it started the sattelite went phut. We were frantic. Everyone started to try and find another place to watch. A muslim friend of mine made some calls and dragged me to his friends house who had cable. In that room were 20 muslims and I was the only non muslim. I knew most of them have relatives in karachi, so yes, the thought struck me for a second that I might find some pro-pak slogan. Now they couldn't care less about impressing me, I'm nobody, and they cheered for their team more than me. After the match everyone hugged each other, ordered pizzas and the lady of the house went into the bedroom to thank God. After that I don't care about the small minority who cheers for Pak, because the majority do not. Btw they are all gujjus, and we discuss quite openly what a shame about Gujrat.
You know what is strange? That Pakistanis seem more concerned than Indian muslims about Gujrat. I don't think any of you know that it's more an economic problem than religious. In Karnataka the locals hate Tamilians and even kill them because so many came and took away their jobs. In gujrat for a long time now the locals have been saying that Bangladeshis and muslims from other states have been settling in droves and taking away their jobs. The govt did nothing, seeing these settlers as vote banks. Then the BJP saw it as something to exploit. Not for one minute am I condoning the bjp, but it is this vote bank chakker that is the real killer of muslims and hindus.
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*Originally posted by mufakkar: *
Yes
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And no never heard of bhandar or avara, and if we haven't it means they aint that hot, nee? Not like premji, whom you all know.
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And no never heard of bhandar or avara, and if we haven't it means they aint that hot, nee? Not like premji, whom you all know.
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That is your reply? Do you something wrong with the statement above? I have only heard of Premji on these boards and no where else, that doesen't reduce his success in any way. BTW the names are Bhandara and Avari.
Whichever way you look at it, most neutrals see the BJP as a hindu revivalist Government. A government which was voted in by the people of India. Economic boom or not, what do you expect people to make of that?
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Asif: Obviosly you did not read one word I wrote. If you had you would know that I am not expecting anything. Indian MUslims loving their country is not the issue here, it is the diatribes of Indian Muslims towards Pakistan. Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs love their country but repect India, thats the type of classy attitude I am talking about.
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I would suggest you to visit the history pages on this very forum and look how many times our President was called names and chamcha, Abul Kalam Azad called a traitor along with other muslims. Tell me where Indian muslims have bashed Pakistan without any provocation. I think somehow you want Indian muslims to keep quiet when you are abusing India and Indians.
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this very thread shows that many Pakistani guppies stand by Indian Muslims.
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Hahahaha - They are happy 'Tamashbins' who are just having fun at the expense of the misery of Indian muslims.
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Bravery does not mean learning Vande Matram ok? Bravery is leaving your home, jobs, friends and relatives to migrate to a new land.
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There you go, you start insulting Indian national song. If learning vande matram isn't bravery then shouting 'Pakistan ka matlab kya, La Ila Ha Il Allah' isn't bravery either. You would be really naive to think that India was same after pakistan was created in the name of religion.
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Pakistani government DOES NOT have any right to interfere in India's internal matters.
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Yes, Please tell that to your govt.
Good for you. Luckily for you no one is either stopping you or the current hindu revivalist BJP from doing exactly that. Good luck. :k:
Just curious, in the present India NDA government, is there a single Muslim minus the President?
Yes there is at least one that I know of. I hope that gives lot of comfort to you.
That’s what the Nazi’s used to say about the European Jews before they wiped them out across Europe. But this is not economics but about the politics of hate and extremism led by the politicans who rule India today. These are the words of Ashok Singhal a president of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, an extreme right-wing ally of Vajpayee and Modi’s BJP - **“What happened in Gujarat will happen in the whole of the country,” and that the recent massacres in Gujarat were a; “successful experiment…which will be repeated all over the country.” **](BBC NEWS | South Asia | Hindu leader accused over comments)
When will the so-called secular parties in India’s parliament unite to vote out the BJP-RSS fanatics from govenment? Or are they more interested in maintaining their cushy portfolio’s in government than defending the rights (and lives) of India’s minorities?
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*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Just curious, in the present India NDA government, is there a single Muslim minus the President?
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The BJP spokesman is a muslim, forgot his name. Aviation minister is Shahnawaz hussain. There are many actually. After all the bjp does claim that it is not racist. Oh and don't forget Omar Abdullah, is he the foreign affairs minister? Cute!
How can you people claim that muslims are not disadvantaged in India. The claim alone is absolutely ludicrous. By not admitting it you are part of the problem. Modi practically organized the Gujrat riots. Instead of being charged with mass murder the man ran in an election, campaigned against muslims and actually won. Not by a small amount but by a landslide. To top if off, after his last trip to England, the guy was being touted as a future PM. How about Advani, everybody knows about his involvement in the Babri Masjid situation and it does'nt take a Poli Sci major to know about his popularity.
Anyways, as a whole I agree with a point that was previosuly made here. Many Indian Muslims (oustide of Gujrat and Kashmir) are strangley anti-Pakistani (perhaps over compansation to prove their patriotism?) and really they should be leaft to there own affairs. Pakistan should not intervene in Indian affairs. Whatever happens with Indian muslims is strictly an Indian problem.
Elahi bro, just read the whole thread and you'll know the answer to your question. And please refrain from saying that WE are part of the problem - how do you know what we have done or not? As Matsui said, do you expect us to take ak-47's and charge into Gujrat? Get real, pls.