India's Great Divide!

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Oh and don't forget Omar Abdullah, is he the foreign affairs minister? Cute!

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Actually its Yashwant Sinha. No, not cute!

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As Matsui said, do you expect us to take ak-47's and charge into Gujrat? Get real, pls.

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No we expect you to carry those oversized forks and set people on fire. Not just Muslims but people in general like Christian Missionaries.... thier 8 and 9 year old kids.... Dalits...Muslims.... women

Now heres a good riddle for you.....if you heard that a bunch of people had caught fire what country and community would first pop into your mind?

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Parsis/Jews are very less in number and also highly entreprenuerial and highly educated. Muslims and christians are sizeable population. If you go to Kerala, you find that christians are very rich (infact much richer than Hindus). I do accept that many muslims are in bad conditions, but it is not that Hindus are all ruling over them. For ever poor muslim found, you will find 5 poor Hindus. People tend to speak like only 3% of the bureacrats are muslims, but if you take the general trend of the community, they dominate in other fields, like transport and tanneries and leather you will find Muslims are much higher than their population percentage.

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It doesnt matter if the community is large or small, I was referring to the group's socioeconomic level. Kerala or State XYZ doesn't represent the entire nation, so I was referring to actual communities in the Nation. Do you have any socioeconomic statistics to back up your claim? I am not being malicious here, I really do want to know.

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It need not be important to condemn pakistan. But, you have to support your mother land. I will tell you one fact, which puts me to shame. Hindus in India have seen some muslims celebrate whenever pakistan wins over India. Can you believe it? These stories get exaggerated in the press and the common man tend to categorise every Muslim, as supporting pakistan.
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I agree with all that you have said. I think Indian Muslims celebrating for Pakistan is much more of a myth than reality. Hey don't support Pakistan, but is it too much to ask, for Indian Muslims to tone down the rhetoric? If Indias Muslims are just neutral or respect Pakistan, I think it would go a long way.

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Also the attitude of the right wing Hindu nationalist has further hardened after the start of terrorism in Kashmir and Punjab. Let me not repeat the role of Pakistan in the strife, as you should be knowing very well, but the hardliners make inflammatory speeches, which is a bit unnerving the muslim community. Many of my friends tell that, by creating problems in India, Pakistan has created more problem for Muslims here.

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Look Pakistan gave Indias Muslims a choice- to migrate or not. If you choose to stay in India, don't cry about it. Pakistan, Bangladesh are separate countries which have no bearing on your domestic agenda. Punjab was a purely Sikh issue which started because of the Sikhs and was directed by the Sikhs. In Kashmir, there was a similar issue except many Pakistanis got overinvolved in the matter, but inherently the issue is very much local in nature...Pakistan cannot forment rebellion in Kerala, you know why? Because the population hold no resentment towards India and thus they will not be willing agitators. You cannot start rebellions with locals supporting it. Your friends need to stop crying and start working on becoming better Indian Muslims.

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Hindus don't care what Muslims think about pakistan, but for sure, everyone wants loyalty. They cannot tolerate anti India slogans and threatening calls what some muslim fundamentalist organisations make. **

Hey fair is fair. I don't disagree at all. Best of luck trying to control your Hindu and Muslim fundo organizations, it's quite a challenge.

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Aviation minister is Shahnawaz hussain

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Wrong again! The Minister of State for Aviation is Shri. Rajiv Pratap Rudy Try again.

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*Originally posted by karina: *

As for Indian muslims cheering for Pak in cricket, let me give you an experience I had. I'd heard about it and always wondered if it was true. In the 99 world cup I was in HK and went to our club to watch the India Pakistan match. Just as it started the sattelite went phut. We were frantic. Everyone started to try and find another place to watch. A muslim friend of mine made some calls and dragged me to his friends house who had cable. In that room were 20 muslims and I was the only non muslim. I knew most of them have relatives in karachi, so yes, the thought struck me for a second that I might find some pro-pak slogan. Now they couldn't care less about impressing me, I'm nobody, and they cheered for their team more than me. After the match everyone hugged each other, ordered pizzas and the lady of the house went into the bedroom to thank God. After that I don't care about the small minority who cheers for Pak, because the majority do not. Btw they are all gujjus, and we discuss quite openly what a shame about Gujrat.

You know what is strange? That Pakistanis seem more concerned than Indian muslims about Gujrat. I don't think any of you know that it's more an economic problem than religious. In Karnataka the locals hate Tamilians and even kill them because so many came and took away their jobs. In gujrat for a long time now the locals have been saying that Bangladeshis and muslims from other states have been settling in droves and taking away their jobs. The govt did nothing, seeing these settlers as vote banks. Then the BJP saw it as something to exploit. Not for one minute am I condoning the bjp, but it is this vote bank chakker that is the real killer of muslims and hindus.
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Karina: Nice story..good to know your open minded. Again if the issue is Economic rather than religiopus, then why hasn't the government tried to stop the hatred/fires from burning communities? Give locals areas advantages in jobs, do whatever it takes. I mean either way you look at it, the government has failed in areas like Guj., I mean at the very least they are supposed to uphold civility.

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The BJP spokesman is a muslim, forgot his name

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There is no "The BJP Spokesman". I think you are talking about Mukhtar Abbas, he is one of many. Narendra Modi of how to roast a Muslim in under 10 minutes fame is also another spokesman as are:

  1. Shri Prakash Javadekar

  2. Shri Prakash Vajavedar

  3. KL Sharma

  4. PN Kumaramangalan

  5. VK Malhotra

  6. Devendra Bhasin

Take your pick!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=170891

mukhtar abbas naqvi - bjp national general sec and spokesperson.

shahnawaz hussain- cabinet minister

omar abdullah - ex union minister, national confernece chief, STILL CUTE!

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*Originally posted by karina: *

omar abdullah - ex union minister, national confernece chief, STILL CUTE!
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Karina: Loving the the nondesis eh? ;)

Come on now, we all know how desi the Abdullah family is :D I really hope you get what I mean ;) Because I don't want Asif to think I'm taunting Indians here with my smilies :)

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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Karina: Nice story..good to know your open minded. Again if the issue is Economic rather than religiopus, then why hasn't the government tried to stop the hatred/fires from burning communities? Give locals areas advantages in jobs, do whatever it takes. I mean either way you look at it, the government has failed in areas like Guj., I mean at the very least they are supposed to uphold civility.
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Politics, politics, politics. I am not a political expert, so my knowledge is somewhat limited. But let me try. The Indian vote bank! The congress built the muslim vote bank, the bjp decided the time was ripe to build a hindu vote bank. For the past few years, in fact many years, no party is getting a majority in parliament. Which means the ruling party has to sleep with a few enemies, for lack of a better term. The bjp needs support from the vhp - deadly, but without the vhp's and mayawatis it falls. So what happens? It cannot stop the babri issue, nor can it risk sacking Modi and alienating a few million hindus since elections are around the corner.The latest polls show that the bjp is losing public support and the congress gaining. Today the bjp is standing at a crossroad - not doing anything about Gujrat might cost it the gaddi, but doing something about it might do that too.

Many Indians actively want to change the nature of Indian politics, either they want to get in presidential rule or do away with the central govt and let every state rule itself. Great! No more Gujrats or Babris - only we don't know when it'll happen. We're working towards it, lets see when the dawn breaks.

Rajput fury, I like the way you structure your questions - it's the correct way for both sides to get an understanding of politics and culture.

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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Karina: Loving the the nondesis eh? ;)

Come on now, we all know how desi the Abdullah family is :D I really hope you get what I mean ;) Because I don't want Asif to think I'm taunting Indians here with my smilies :)
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Aw Rajput bro, don't say that. Omar is as Indian as Asif or I. Ask him yaar, he even married a hindu to make it official. ;)

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Politics, politics, politics. I am not a political expert, so my knowledge is somewhat limited. But let me try. The Indian vote bank! The congress built the muslim vote bank, the bjp decided the time was ripe to build a hindu vote bank. For the past few years, in fact many years, no party is getting a majority in parliament. Which means the ruling party has to sleep with a few enemies, for lack of a better term. The bjp needs support from the vhp - deadly, but without the vhp's and mayawatis it falls. So what happens? It cannot stop the babri issue, nor can it risk sacking Modi and alienating a few million hindus since elections are around the corner.The latest polls show that the bjp is losing public support and the congress gaining. Today the bjp is standing at a crossroad - not doing anything about Gujrat might cost it the gaddi, but doing something about it might do that too.
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Hehe hating Politics already...and they call economics the dismal science..fools!

I understand voting banks and what the BJP has embarked upon. I guess my question was more targetted to the government as a separate entity..Meaning if BJP or Congress is in power, legislation should be enacted to give preferences to Gujjus hindus and muslims alike, in jobs. The Babri Mosque issue is a tricky one, I am not sure how to resolve it. I just hold governments responsible for not controlling civil issues. I mean if there is resentment in a certain section/quarter of the country, the State and local authorities should resolve the matter in a manner befitting all sides.

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It's sad because in a way the bjp has done some good too - today india's foreign reserves stand at 75 billion. On paper India is richer than the US, and has no debt, which even the big 5 cannot boast of. If only it could break away from the shackles of vhp and rss!
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Right! BJP has been excellent in the Foriegn policy/Economics field. I think the problem here isn't India success, which has been great, but rather the equitable distribution of the benefits in the nation, basically a greater distribution of economic benefits. Now, I knoe free marketers like Matty will jump me like all aggresive Friedman wannabes do, but I think a little bit of income distribution and a command pratices would greatly benefit India as the edvelopment picks up speed.

Pakistan has just now begun to look after less developed areas like Baluchistan, but we too have way to go. In Pakistan, much of the economic power lies in the Punjab plus Karachi. So it's something that we worry about as well.
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Many Indians actively want to change the nature of Indian politics, either they want to get in presidential rule or do away with the central govt and let every state rule itself. Great! No more Gujrats or Babris - only we don't know when it'll happen. We're working towards it, lets see when the dawn breaks.
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Well I am not sure how it will benefit. I mean say Guj. is on state rule and if the politicians hate Muslims or in Punjab Sikhs hate others, wouldn't that give them a stronger incentive to continue on? i think the setup is quite good, all India needs is greater central involvement to ease inter and intra States issues.
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Rajput fury, I like the way you structure your questions - it's the correct way for both sides to get an understanding of politics and culture. **

Well i appreciate your comments, but I am sure you will not like somethings that I might say, but thats ok too, because I think I have ticked off many people here by speaking my beliefs.

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*Originally posted by karina: *

Aw Rajput bro, don't say that. Omar is as Indian as Asif or I. Ask him yaar, he even married a hindu to make it official. ;)
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Sorry that I cannot believe :D maybe his children will be from the mother side lol.

What can't you believe? That he married Payal?

If you persist with your doubting you are forcing me to open my mouth on a subject that only select Nehru/Abdullah family worshippers know. Why was Sheik A so friendly with Nehru? Why does FA resemble Nehru? Why is it that Omar can pass off as Rajiv's cousin...:D

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Originally posted by RajputFury: *
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Right! BJP has been excellent in the Foriegn policy/Economics field. I think the problem here isn't India success, which has been great, but rather the equitable distribution of the benefits in the nation, basically a greater distribution of economic benefits. Now, I knoe free marketers like Matty will jump me like all aggresive Friedman wannabes do, but I think a little bit of income distribution and a command pratices would greatly benefit India as the edvelopment picks up speed.

Not being an economics expert either I don't know how to go about it, but I agree with you 100%. I also believe in free markets, because giving handouts has never worked, but at the same time something could be done to generate industry.

Pakistan has just now begun to look after less developed areas like Baluchistan, but we too have way to go. In Pakistan, much of the economic power lies in the Punjab plus Karachi. So it's something that we worry about as well.

Right!
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Many Indians actively want to change the nature of Indian politics, either they want to get in presidential rule or do away with the central govt and let every state rule itself. Great! No more Gujrats or Babris - only we don't know when it'll happen. We're working towards it, lets see when the dawn breaks.
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Well I am not sure how it will benefit. I mean say Guj. is on state rule and if the politicians hate Muslims or in Punjab Sikhs hate others, wouldn't that give them a stronger incentive to continue on? i think the setup is quite good, all India needs is greater central involvement to ease inter and intra States issues.

I did tell you I'm not a political expert, but I shall wait for Mat's or Asif's comment on this, since a lot of Indians think the other alternative is better.
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Rajput fury, I like the way you structure your questions - it's the correct way for both sides to get an understanding of politics and culture. **

Well i appreciate your comments, but I am sure you will not like somethings that I might say, but thats ok too, because I think I have ticked off many people here by speaking my beliefs.

YOu can tick me off as much as you want, as long as you do it constructively and not jump down my throat because I'm hindu. That is so passe! :)]/QUOTE]

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Originally posted by karina:

After all the bjp does claim that it is not racist.
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That has to one of the most ridiculous statementts that I have read, especially when you later contradict yourself by saying:-

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The bjp needs support from the vhp - deadly, but without the vhp's and mayawatis it falls.
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Do you know what the BJP and RSS stands for? What does it staunch allies the VHP, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc etc stand for?

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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Come on now, we all know how desi the Abdullah family is :D I really hope you get what I mean Because I don't want Asif to think I'm taunting Indians here with my smilies

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Well I agree, These Abdullahs are hardly desis, They spent 80% of the year in UK while holding a position in Kashmir or Delhi. Kashmir and India are better off without them.

http://www.indianexpress.com/archive_full_story.php?content_id=30681

The “divide” is not an absolute truth. For those who have a divide in their hearts, it will never go away. For those who don’t perceive religion as a dividing factor, the divide will never exist.

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*Originally posted by Malik73: *

That has to one of the most ridiculous statementts that I have read, especially when you later contradict yourself by saying:-

Do you know what the BJP and RSS stands for? What does it staunch allies the VHP, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc etc stand for?
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BJP -> Non-Racist! Biggest joke of the decade!

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*Originally posted by karina: *
What can't you believe? That he married Payal?

If you persist with your doubting you are forcing me to open my mouth on a subject that only select Nehru/Abdullah family worshippers know. Why was Sheik A so friendly with Nehru? Why does FA resemble Nehru? Why is it that Omar can pass off as Rajiv's cousin...:D
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Karina: I too know the "secret" lets just drop it and leave it with you calling Omar cute Ok? :D

I think we're sort of going round in circles...

Interesting piece …

Heart of darkness, Luke Harding, The Guardian, 15 September 2003

As a young backpacker Luke Harding found India charming and eccentric. Fifteen years later he returned as the Guardian’s correspondent. Now, after finishing his time there, he recalls how one terrible incident of secular violence in Gujarat brought his love affair with the country to an end.

…] Two police officers in khaki told us the situation was dangerous, and that we should leave; they seemed resigned or indifferent to the horror around them, an emotion I had encountered before during what would turn out to be more than three years of reporting on India for the Guardian. Later that afternoon, in the suburb of Naroda Patiya, we watched as a Hindu crowd armed with machetes and iron bars attacked their Muslim neighbours on the other side of the street. All of the shops on the Muslim side of the road were ablaze; smoke blotted out the sky; gas cylinders exploded and boomed; we were, it seemed, in some part of hell. “We are being killed. Please get us out,” one Muslim resident, Dishu Banashek, told me. “They are firing at us. Several of our women have been raped. You must help.”

When we asked a senior policeman to intervene he merely smirked. “Don’t worry, madam. Everything will be done,” he told a colleague from the Times mendaciously. We left. It was too dangerous to stay.

…] [Mrs. Rochomal’s] body was less than 60 metres away from the local police station. The police had not, it was obvious, bothered to rescue her: they had, I was forced to conclude, been complicit in her death.